How one is saved.....

Titus Dorn

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I don't think we have much more to discuss. You and I just do not agree on some crucial issues and may never. In regards to Hark and others who are zealous for the law (particularly sabbath keeping) in threads that pertain to the law, good luck coming to an agreement with them. Their arguments typically culminate in "salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works."

Yes, they do not understand that God taught us if we try to keep the old law we forfeit our salvation that only can come from Christ and His covenant. Anyone who tries to be saved by keeping the law of Moses truly are working their way to heaven by earning their salvation. They are doomed.

Would you at least explain how there can be no obedient works in Jesus' gospel unto salvation since belief itself is a commandment that we must obey? 1 John 3:23-24

Are there no commandments from God in His gospel that man must obey through obedience to be saved?

If you can show me how I am misunderstanding the commandment to believe. You will have put doubt in my mind that I could be wrong.
 
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Danthemailman

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1 John 5:11 - And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
 
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Titus Dorn

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1 John 5:11 - And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
1John 5:11?
How does 1John 5:11 nullify John's commandment to believe? It still is a commandment in 1John 5:11 is it not? Or does the apostle John contradict himself? Must we obey this commandment to believe?

Since belief is commanded. And commandments must be obeyed. What does this prove about obedient works?

I know that it is clear to both of us that Faith in Jesus has nothing to do with earning salvation.

Therefore obedient works are not meritorious works.

We don't earn our salvation by obeying His commandment to believe. Just as we don't earn our salvation when we obey the commandment to repent,

Acts 17:30
Truly these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now COMMANDS all men everywhere to repent.
 
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OSAS 101

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Well, you said you know you are saved. How do you know this as a fact? Please show me how you know you are saved.

I know that I am saved because I believed all of what Jesus and His Inspired apostles taught through the revelation of the Holy Spirit.

I will show you all of the gospel of Christ that is required of us to believe in and obey to be saved in my future posts.

One important belief a person must have that makes them teachable or unreachable is if they believe that the Holy Bible is the only authority on truth and error.

Also a person that is teachable must believe that anything they believe that goes against what the Bible teaches as truth must therefore be error. Do you except that if you believe something and it contradicts the Bible that you are always 100% wrong?

If I cannot convince you that the Bible is the only authority for what God says is truth. Then I cannot convince you what is Gods will and what is some man's think so's.

There are folks who are unteachable because they believe God speaks directly to them apart from His Holy divine Word.

Therefore if I tell them they are wrong about what they believe because the Bible doesn't teach what they believe. It does not matter to them. Because they believe that what God is telling them directly apart from the Bible has more authority than the Bible does.

So, if you Believe God tells you directly what is right or wrong, Gods holy, divine ,Inspired, infallible Word, ie Holy Bible becomes of no use to you. You do not have faith in it. Your faith is in yourself and your supposed direct revelations from God.

I cant help you know the truth if you do not accept that Gods word is the only authority on truth. Do you agree?
Yes
 
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Danthemailman

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1John 5:11?
How does 1John 5:11 nullify John's commandment to believe? It still is a commandment in 1John 5:11 is it not? Or does the apostle John contradict himself? Must we obey this commandment to believe?

Since belief is commanded. And commandments must be obeyed. What does this prove about obedient works?

I know that it is clear to both of us that Faith in Jesus has nothing to do with earning salvation.

Therefore obedient works are not meritorious works.

We don't earn our salvation by obeying His commandment to believe. Just as we don't earn our salvation when we obey the commandment to repent,

Acts 17:30
Truly these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now COMMANDS all men everywhere to repent.
Did I say that 1 John 5:11 nullifies John’s command to believe? No. Just the opposite. No checklist of obedient works are mentioned either “in addition to believing” in 1 John 5:11-13. Repentance precedes believing in Christ unto salvation, so Acts 17:30 is not nullified either. Assurance of salvation is found only through believing in Christ for salvation and not in works.
 
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anna ~ grace

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In today's world where churches and different beliefs are popping up on every corner, not to mention the years of churches preaching a watered down Bible and God. What does the Bible say and not say concerning salvation? Seems to me that if one is going to endeavor to be a Christian, one would be concerned with God's word more so than anything else!!! 1. No where does the NT say or imply that anyone has ever been saved by praying "the sinners prayer".
2. The Bible does however say specifically that obedience IS involved in salvation.
2 Thessalonians 1:6-8
since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. -
The Bible says what the Bible says, regardless of what anyone believes. Sure, there are prophetic areas of the Bible where I may be right in the interpretation or you may be or we both may be wrong, but I submit to you that anything pertaining to salvation is straight forward requiring zero interpretation. Would God want us to be saved and not tell us how to be saved? Would God be a just God by requiring this for salvation from one person and something different from another thus making it impossible to know? Not according to the Word of God. For those who will argue the "sinner prayer" i have but one more verse for ponderance.

Now we know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does His will, He hears him.
- John 9:31
Can a sinner pray him/her self to heaven?
Not according to God's word.
In Him

Faith plus works. By grace.
 
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Titus Dorn

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Faith plus works. By grace.
WRONG!!!

Catholic doctrine: Faith plus works( works of man) by grace.

Catholics do not teach the gospel of Christ.

Catholics teach we are saved by Grace + Faith + mans works. FALSE TEACHING!

The Bible teaches we are saved by,

Gods Grace +mans Faith + Gods works.

If we are saved by our works as Catholics teach. Then our salvation is earned.
 
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anna ~ grace

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WRONG!!!

Catholic doctrine: Faith plus works( works of man) by grace.

Catholics do not teach the gospel of Christ.

Catholics teach we are saved by Grace + Faith + mans works. FALSE TEACHING!

The Bible teaches we are saved by,

Gods Grace +mans Faith + Gods works.

If we are saved by our works as Catholics teach. Then our salvation is earned.
Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Assyrian Church of the East. Every church which can truly trace itself back to the Apostles.

resurrection2.jpg
 
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Titus Dorn

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Your from the Church of Christ, right?
I doubt you could teach me anything.
Romans 16:16
Greet one another with a Holy kiss. The churches of Christ greet you.


There is only one church,

Colossians 1:24
I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflections of Christ for the sake of HIS BODY, WHICH IS THE CHURCH.

The church that Jesus Christ established is one.

There is only one Lords church. In the first century, there were not denominations of the Lords church.

Denominationalism is DIVISION! The Lord never intended for His church to be divded up. It is a sin to cause division in His body!

1Corinthians 15:10
Now I plead with you brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you ALL SPEAK THE SAME THING, AND THAT THERE BE NO DIVISIONS AMONG YOU, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Now if you can show me that the Lord intended for His church to be divided on His teaching. Divided up of His gospel on how we are saved.

And if you can show me the baptist church in the Bible. Then I will become a Baptist.

If you can show me the catholic church in the Bible, I will become a catholic.

If you can show me the name of your church in the Bible. Then I will become a member of your church.

If you cannot. Then I will stay married to Christ. Bride of Christ, Ephesians 5:22-33
Revelation 19:7
Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His wife has made herself ready.


 
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Titus Dorn

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Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Assyrian Church of the East. Every church which can truly trace itself back to the Apostles.

resurrection2.jpg
Those are chruchES. Jesus Christ established His one church, Matthew 16:18-19
 
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Titus Dorn

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Evading my question.
Yes, you are the Church of Christ and we have not much in common.

If you think this is about winning some theology contest. You do not know my motives or my heart.

I love you Sir, I want to spend eternity in heaven with you. I want you to be my brother.

I doubt you could teach me anything.

Regrettably, I am afraid you are right. I hope to God you would hear His gospel. I'll teach only if you are open to what I believe is the truth.

If your already convinced that I cannot possibly know the truth. Then I'm sorry to hear that. I only desire to show you what Gods word teaches not my opinions.

Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

There are men who know the truth and are able to share the truth with others,

Colossians 2:2
That their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love and attaining to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge of the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ

If you have the truth. Then Hallelujah, I am so glad God brought you and me together. I am willing for you to show me were I am in error. I only desire to believe in the truth and obey it. So, do you still want to have Bible study with me? If not I hope and pray you will study diligently and pray without ceasing for God to help you know the truth.

Matthew 7:7-8
Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and it will be opened to you
For everyone who asks receives and he who seeks finds and to him who knocks it will be opened.
 
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Titus Dorn

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Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.


It is true the Holy Bible teaches we are not saved by works. I agree completely with Paul's teaching in Epheasians. But we must be Biblically educated well enough to know what kind of works Paul is referring to in Epheasians 2:8-9.

It is unbiblical teaching to teach we are saved by faith ALONE. Nowhere does any of the apostles or Jesus Christ Himself teach this false man made doctrine.

Why? Because it is an impossibility to be saved without works.

I will prove that the Bible really teaches we are saved by,

Grace, Faith, Works.

It should be obvious but it is not to those who have been indoctrinated into Sola Fide that if this doctrine be true, then we are saved without God! For by Gods grace we have been saved!

And Gods grace IS A WORK, A WORK OF GOD!!!

Just as Faith is a Work of God. Now can we be saved without Gods grace or faith? We know the answer.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, NOT OF WORKS lest any man should boast.

Now can man boast of the works that God does to save us?

Can we boast of the work Christ did on the cross to save us from our sins?

Obviously not. Then Paul what kind of works can man do that he would boast about? MERITORIOUS WORKS OF MAN!

Why is Paul teaching this in Epheasians? It is because Jews did not understand how God saves us. They had it seared into their conscience that salvation comes from keeping the Law of Moses. Paul had to explain to the Jews over and over that doing works of the old law cannot save anyone.

Yet many jews who even believed and were converted to Christ tried to bind the old Mosaical law on other christians. Particularly gentile christians.

This is why Paul had to teach we are not saved by the works we do so often un his writings. The Jews had to be taught out of the error of their misunderstanding of what is true faith in God. How we are truly saved.

Faith alone folks are ignorant in the exact opposite of the jews. While jews believed we had to do our own works to earn salvation. Faith alone advocates go to the other extreme and say there is nothing man can do to receive salvation. But then they contradict themselves and say we must believe. Faith alone followers are correct that it is not by our works that we are saved. But they have gone to the extreme by believing that no works of any kind are involved in our salvation. This is were they split with the apostles teaching. No apostle taught we are saved only by Faith and no works of any kind.

Epheasians 2:8-9 are works of merit. I agree with Epheasians 2:8-9 completely.

Abraham was not saved by faith alone. This is not Biblically correct. Abraham was accounted as righteous because of his faith and his obedience to God. The scriptures prove this to be true.

Romans 4:2
For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

That is exactly what Paul is teaching in Ephesians 2:8-9.

What kind of works can man boast about? Gods works or man working to earn his salvation? Yep this is what Paul says cannot justify Abraham or anyone. But Paul never taught that Abraham was saved by faith only and no works of any kind.

Romans 4:3
For what does the scriptures say? Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Martin Luther says believed ALONE. Paul never said in Romans 4:3 Abraham was accounted to him for righteousness by belief only! He said it was by Faith that God made him righteous.

We must know the true meaning of Biblical saving faith.

This is the main problem with why folks don't understand what saves us. It is because people do not know the correct definition of what Biblical saving faith is. Let the Bible define it for us.

The Bible teaches the kind of faith that made Abraham righteous was an obedient faith, we must go back to Genesis to learn this truth.

Genesis 15:6
And he believed in the Lord and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

Those who have been tricked into the reformation doctrines will think God is saying Abraham was saved by Faith Alone. And they believe this verse proves this out.

Not so, because Abraham was accounted for righteousness by God because Abraham believed God and then ACTED on his faith by obeying God. Abraham had an obedient faith that made him righteous not faith without obedience to God.

Here is how we know this to be evident.

What did Abraham do for God to declare him righteous in Genesis 15:6? Do you not know that before God said this about Abraham he had already OBEYED God?

Genesis 12:1-8
Now the Lord had said to Abram:

Get out of your country, from your family and from your fathers house, To a land that I will show you. I will make you a great nation; I will bless you and make your name great; and you shall be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you and I will curse him who curses you; and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.

SO ABRAM DEPARTED AS THE LORD HAD SPOKEN TO HIM, and Lot went with him (He OBEYED GOD AND WENT!)

And Abram sas seventy five years old when he departed from Haran. Then Abram took Sarai his wife and Lot his brothers son and all thier possessions that they had gathered and the people whom they had acquired in Haran and they departed (That is taking ACTION on your faith) to go to the land of Canaan. So they came to the land of Canaan. Abram passed through the land to the place of Shechem, as far as the terebinth tree of Moreh. And the Canaanites were then in the land. Then the Lord appeared to Abram and said, To your descendants I will give this land. And there he built an altar to the Lord, who had appeared to him. And he moved from there to the mountain east of Bethel and he pitched his tent with Bethel on the west and Ai on the east; there he built an altar to the Lord and called on the name of the Lord.

We learn that all of Abraham's obedience was done before Genesis 15:6 when God declared Abraham righteous by his faith. Question: did Abraham have faith alone at Genesis 15:6?

Or did Abraham already prove his faith by obedience to God?

Any honest person will say Abraham was accounted for righteousness because he had an obedient faith.

The Bible continues to prove this Biblical fact.

Genesis 22:11-12
But the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, Abraham, Abraham! So he said, Here I am.

And He said, Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; FOR NOW I KNOW THAT YOU FEAR GOD SINCE YOU HAVE NOT WITHHELD YOUR SON, YOUR ONLY SON, FROM ME.

Once again the Bible shows us that Abraham's faith was ACTIVE LIVING DOING THE WILL OF THE FATHER, TRUSTING IN THE LORD.

Would Abraham have a trusting faith if he did not sacrifice his son Isaac? No, Once again we see the faith that Abraham had was not faith alone but an obedient faith that made him righteous before God.

Just as James taught in James 2:21;23

James 2:21;23
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

V23
And the scripture was fulfilled which says, Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. And he was called the friend of God.

James said in Genesis 15:6 Abraham being made righteous by God was fulfilled in Genesis 22:11-12 when he OBYED God. James taught Abraham's faith was not alone without obedience but just the opposite.

God accounted Abraham as righteous because Abraham always had an obedient faith from the beginning and it was fulfilled when he obyed God and sacrificed his son. These are all ACTIONS of faith. This us Biblical saving faith. The Bible never teaches wemare saved without obedience to God. Abraham was not accounted righteousness because of faith with no works.

More proof Abraham's faith that accounted him as righteous, saved was faith and works of obedience,

Genesis 26:2;4-5
Then the Lord appeared to him(Abraham's son Isaac) and said; Do not go down to Egypt; live in the land of which I shall tell you.

And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; BECAUSE ABRAHAM OBEYED MY VOICE AND KEPT MY CHARGE, MY COMMANDMENTS, MY STATUTES AND MY LAWS.

This is overwhelming proof that Abraham was blessed by God made righteous, saved because His faith was an obedient faith. God never would have accounted Abraham as righteous if he had not always had an obedient faith. Likewise we are saved the same today,

When we believe in Jesus and believe in His word and with our faith in Him we put our faith in action and obey God.
This obedience to God through Faith is how we receive Gods grace! Amen

Saved by: Grace+faith+ works of God

When we obey God. His works not ours save us. Faith itself is a work of God:

John 6:28-29
Then they said to Him, What shall we do, that we may work the WORKS OF GOD?

Jesus answered and said to them, This is the WORK OF GOD, that you BELIEVE in Him whom He sent.

It is an impossibility for there to be no works in salvation.

For faith is a work a work of God.

Whenever man obeys the commands to

Believe, Romans 10:17

Repent, Acts 17:30

Confess, Romans 10:9-10; Acts 8:37-38

Be water baptized, Acts 2:38; Colossians 2:11-13

He has an obedient faith. This obedient faith saves because,

It is not by works which we have done,
Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the WASHING OF REGENERATION AND RENEWING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

Just as faith is a work of God so is all of these other commands we must obey.

Friend baptism is not a work of man but just like faith it is a work of God.

Titus 3:5=Colossians 2:12
Buried with Him in baptism in which you also were raised with Him through Faith in THE WORKING OF GOD, who raised Him from the dead.

Colossians 2:12 King James version
Buried with Him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with Him through the faith OF THE OPERATION OF GOD, who hath raised Him from the dead.

It is when we believe and obey the gospel of Jesus Christ by doing His commandments that then and ONLY THEN does God work His works to save us.

Water baptism is were God WORKS/OPERATES on us to save us from our sins,

Only if we are baptized can we be given access to the blood of Christ that will wash away our sins.

Grace+ obedient Faith+ works of God= eternal life

Romans 4:3 = Acts 10:35

V3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

V35
But in every nation he that feareth Him, and WORKETH RIGHTEOUSNESS, is accepted with Him.

God accounts us as righteous by faith, Romans 4:3

God accounts us as righteous by Obedience, Acts 10:35

We cannot be saved by Gods works without both.

Must have God working operating on us to receive salvation.

Faith alone , without works, Gods works and our obedience is dead, James 2:24;26






 
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