Olivet Discourse historicist or preterist?

jgr

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,007
✟784,067.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
matt24_Woodrow.gif


Ralph Woodrow



bar31.gif




2. THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATIONFUTURE OR FULFILLED?

Concerning our Lord’s statement about the destruction of the temple, the disciples asked: “WHEN shall these things be? and WHAT SIGN will there be when these things shall come to pass?” (Luke 21:7). As we have seen, Jesus mentioned things of a general nature that would come to pass first. Now he gives THE sign — a specific sign that would let them know that Jerusalem was about to be destroyed. He said that they would see “the abomination of desolation” and when they saw this, they were to quickly flee, for the desolation of the city would be nigh.


  • Matthew: “When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) then let them that be in Judaea flee into the mountains” (24:15,16).

    Mark: “When ye shall see the abomination of desolations spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains” (13:14).

    Luke: “When ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains . . . Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles” (21:20,21,24).
Now, step by step, let us notice what we are told in these parallel accounts:

1. We notice where Matthew and Mark record: ‘When ye shall see the abomination of DESOLATION . . . then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains”, Luke, in speaking of exactly the same thing, says: “When ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the DESOLATION thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains.” We see, then, that it was JERUSALEM that would become a DESOLATION.

We notice also that this “desolation” was that “which was spoken by Daniel the prophet.” Turning to Daniel 9, we find the passage in which Daniel spoke of this destruction: “And the people of the prince that shall come shall DESTROY the city and the sanctuary” (Dan. 9:26).

Therefore, by comparing the parallel accounts, by the fact that Jesus was answering questions about the overthrow of Jerusalem, and by our Lord’s reference to the prophecy of Daniel, it is evident that what was to become a “desolation” was JERUSALEM. There is no room for any misunderstanding here.

2. Looking again at the parallel accounts, we see that what Matthew and Mark refer to as the “abomination” that would make Jerusalem desolate, Luke (using plain language) shows that such would be armies — Gentile armies: “And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with ARMIES, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh . . . Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles” (Lk. 21:20-24).

The word “abomination” is a word that refers to anything that is especially loathsome or detestable. Certainly this fits the feelings the inhabitants of Jerusalem would have toward an idol-worshipping Gentile army advancing to destroy their city! In fact, an army (coming to destroy) is an abomination to any people or nation. And, as history has repeatedly recorded, the work of armies so often results in desolation — destruction!

3. Matthew’s account says that the abomination (Gentile army) would “stand in the holy place” and adds the words: “Whoso readeth, let him understand.” Mark’s account, because it too is given in somewhat veiled language, includes the words: “Let him that readeth understand.” BUT, looking at Luke’s account of the same passage which is given in plain language, we read: ‘When ye see JERUSALEM compassed with armies . . .“ And because he gives the explanation, he does not include the phrase: “Let him that readeth understand.”

By letting the Bible be its own interpreter, then, we see that the term “holy place” (Mt. 24:15), is a reference to Jerusalem. Jerusalem is commonly referred to as the holy city (Mt. 27:53; Dan. 9:16; etc.). According to the prophecy, Gentile armies were to compass it and finally bring it to desolation.

The word translated “place” in the expression “holy place” in Matthew’s account is topos (see any Greek dictionary or Bible Concordance such as Strong’s, Young’s, etc.). The word topos means simply a locality. Such words as topical and topography are derived from it. It is used in such scriptural expressions as “a desert place”, “dry places”, etc. (It is not the same term as that which is used in describing the holy of holies of the temple.)

What is called the holy place is explained by Luke as the area that would be occupied by armies surrounding Jerusalem. The Matthew Henry Commentary has well put it: “Jerusalem was the holy city, Canaan the holy land, the Mt. Moriah, which lay about Jerusalem, for its nearness to the temple was, they thought, in a particular manner holy ground; on the country lying round about Jerusalem the Roman army was encamped, that was the abomination that made desolate.”1

These pagan armies were to “compass” the city (Luke); they would take a “stand” there (Matthew) — the word stand indicating rebellion or hostility. Examples of the word used in this way may be seen in the following:

“A king of fierce countenance.., shall stand up” (Dan. 8:23,25). “A mighty king shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion . . . and when he shall stand up . . .” (11:3,4). Another will “stand up in his estate, and shall come with an army” (verse 7). “Then shall stand up . . . a raiser of taxes . . . and in his estate shall stand up a vile person” (verses 20,21). A king “shall be stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he shall not stand . . .” (verse 25). Concerning persecution against the cause of Christ, we read in Acts 4:26: “The kings of the earth stood up and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord . . .”

We cite these references to show how the word “stand” is used of those who assume a place of leadership or authority to rebel or fight. And in the same sense, the “abomination” — the pagan armies — were to take a stand against Jerusalem and compass it about to destroy it!

Taking then the sum of what Jesus said in this connection, we understand that Jerusalem was to become a desolation; one stone would not be left upon another. Jesus also revealed that this destruction would be caused by “armies.” Jerusalem would be “trodden down of Gentiles”, such idol-worshipping Gentile armies quite correctly being referred to as an “abomination.” Any way we look at it, according to the words of Christ, Jerusalem was marked for destruction by the hands of her enemies.

A few days after Jesus had mentioned these things, however, he commissioned his disciples to wait in this very city — to be endued with power from on high. He explained that they would receive power after that the Holy Spirit had come upon them and they would be witnesses unto him throughout the world, including Jerusalem, where their work would begin (Acts 1:8; Lk. 24:49).

But if the city was to be destroyed, what about our Lord’s disciples that would be there as a witness to that city? Were they to perish with the others — with those who had rejected Christ and cried, “Crucify him, crucify him”? Or would there be a way of escape? According to the scriptures, their witness in that city was to continue up to a certain point — only until they saw a certain sign — and then they were to FLEE and escape the horrid destruction destined for that city and people!

As is well known, the city of Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed by Roman armies in 70 A.D. But before this happened, in obedience to the warning Jesus had given, every Christian fled and thus escaped the awful wrath that befell that city and country! The account of what happened is truly amazing!

In 65 A.D., Florus, the worse of Caesar’s procurators, assumed control of Judea. He did things which brought the Jews to a place of violent rebellion — a rebellion too great for him to handle. Consequently, another man, Cestius Gallus, took over. Marching his armies into Palestine, a number of towns were subdued and he advanced toward Jerusalem. After camping for three days near the city, he began the assault.2

Seeing Jerusalem compassed with Gentile armies, the disciples now knew its desolation was nigh — according to the words of Christ. They also knew this was the sign to flee! But HOW could they flee when the city was surrounded? This had not been explained in the prophecy. But let us see what happened.

Cestius and his armies were being very successful in their battle against Jerusalem. So much so, in fact, that the Jews were ready to give up and shortly would have opened their gates in surrender — thus saving the city and temple. But prophecy had it that these things would be destroyed! When Cestius would have almost taken the city, suddenly — as Josephus says, “without any reason in the world” — he withdrew his troops and departed! This filled the Jews with courage and they pursued the retreating army, inflicting on it a major disaster.3

With the retreat of the armies that compassed Jerusalem, there was a brief interval before the armies would return and destroy the city. And in this brief interval, there was time for the Christians to flee. What happened is well summed up in the words of Thomas Newton:

We learn from ecclesiastical histories, that at this juncture all who believed in Christ departed Jerusalem, and removed to Pella and other places beyond the river Jordan; so that they all marvelously escaped the general shipwreck of their countrymen; and we do not read anywhere that so much as one of them perished in the destruction of Jerusalem.4

Adam Clarke wrote: “it is very remarkable that not a single Christian perished in the destruction of Jerusalem though there were many there when Cestius Gallus invested the city.”5 Truly it was a marvelous escape! What confirmation of our Lord’s words! What an amazing fulfillment of prophecy!

The Christians having now made their escape, the desolation of Jerusalem was nigh. After Cestius Gallus had retreated with his troops, Nero then ordered Vespasian to take over. He, in turn, ordered his son, Titus, to go to Alexandria and bring the 5th and 10th legions from Egypt — to subdue Judea. But a crisis developed in Rome causing Vespasian to return there (where in 70 A. D. he was hailed as the new Emperor) and the job of capturing Jerusalem was left in the hands of Titus and his armies.6

We see, then, that in the place where Matthew and Mark use the somewhat veiled expression “abomination of desolation”, Luke (using plain language) shows that such was to be Gentile armies compassing Jerusalem to bring it to desolation. All three of the gospel accounts before mentioning this sign begin with the words: “When ye see . . .” and follow this with the words: “Then let them that be in Judea flee to the mountains”, etc. There can be no mistake that these are parallel accounts. By simply letting the Bible explain itself, we have seen that the “desolation” was to be the destruction of Jerusalem (city and temple); the “abomination of desolation” referred to heathen armies that would bring about the desolation; and when these armies would be seen compassing Jerusalem, the disciples were to flee.

This interpretation is solidly built on the Bible. With it, the gospel accounts are complementary, not contradictory. It is confirmed by history. It glorifies Christ, for it plainly demonstrates how his words were fulfilled and his warning heeded — thus providing a great deliverance and blessing for the Christian people of that time!

continued...
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

jgr

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,007
✟784,067.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Having set forth what we sincerely believe to be the exact and only fulfillment of our Lord’s words, we must now consider an interpretation which has become widely believed, especially in this century. We have reference to the teaching that the “abomination of desolation” is an idol to be placed in the holy of holies of a rebuilt Jewish temple — possibly an idol of the antichrist or the antichrist himself. This interpretation has it that the “abomination of desolation” is yet FUTURE!

An example of the futurist interpretation is seen in the following: “The Jews — who will have.., restored Herod’s Temple, and be in league with Antichrist — will have a visit by the False Prophet who shall bring an image of the Antichrist into Jerusalem and wheel it into the temple . . . When this image of the Antichrist is taken into the Jewish temple, that will be the sign Jesus mentioned in Matthew 24, the Abomination of Desolation.”7

Another futurist writer says: “This image will be placed in the Jewish temple in Jerusalem, and is the ‘abomination of desolation’ to which the Lord made reference in his Olivet discourse.”8 According to the futurist position, the abomination of desolation will be “an idol placed in the holy of holies of the temple during the reign of Antichrist.”9

In disagreeing with the futurist interpretation, it is certainly not our intention to treat lightly the beliefs of fine men of God who hold this position. Nevertheless, we feel that the futurist interpretation will not stand up under investigation.

1. The setting up of an idol in the sanctuary is something the enemy could not do until such a time as the temple would be in the enemies’ possession. Since the magnificent temple would no doubt be the last thing to be yielded to the enemy in battle, by this time the city would have already been captured and it would be too late for the disciples to flee! Obviously then, this could not be the sign to flee. In order for something to be a warning for the disciples to escape, it would have to come before the capture of the city — not something to take place afterward!

In view of this, an idol in the holy of holies could not be the sign Jesus referred to. But the presence of heathen armies compassing Jerusalem could be — and was — the sign, such happening before the overthrow of the city (as we have seen).

2. The very prophecy indicates that the “abomination” would destroy the city and the temple — would make it desolate. This is exactly what the heathen armies did. But with the teaching that the “abomination” is to be an idol set up in the temple, there is nothing but contradiction. How could the abomination be an idol set up in the temple, when the temple was to be destroyed by the abomination? An idol could not be set up in the temple if the temple was destroyed. It should be pointed out also, that while idols are, of course, abominable, they are not desolators! It is armies that make desolate, not a powerless idol!

3. The “abomination” that would make desolate was to be something that could be SEEN by the inhabitants of Judea and Jerusalem. “When you SEE the abomination”; that is, “When you SEE Jerusalem compassed with armies”, then, “let them that are in Judea flee into the mountains.” It is evident that Jesus was not talking about an idol in the holy of holies, for such could not be SEEN by the population of Jerusalem and Judea. Only the high priest entered the holy of holies. None of the ordinary Jews would dare enter there.

It was not an idol in the Jewish holy of holies that destroyed the city and temple! It was not an idol in the holy of holies that was seen by the population of Jerusalem! When the disciples fled into the mountains of Judea, it had nothing to do with any idol whatsoever!

On the other hand, it was pagan armies that destroyed the city and temple. It was armies which were seen by the people, and it was the compassing of Jerusalem by armies that warned the disciples to flee!

The futurist interpretation regarding the abomination of desolation must teach that the Jewish temple will be rebuilt — in order to have a place for the abominable idol to be placed. But we feel this is a very unsound form of interpretation, for it completely ignores the context! What temple was the subject of our Lord’s Olivet discourse? Was Jesus talking about that temple of his day or a rebuilt temple 2,000 years later? Notice: “And as he [Jesus] went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here! And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? There shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And as he sat upon the Mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked him privately, Tell us, when shall these things be? And what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?” (Mk. 13:1-4; also Mt. 24; Lk. 21).

In this passage, Jesus was speaking of the temple of his day; he talked about the stones which it contained, had the disciples look at it, answered questions about it! Are we to assume that he was not actually speaking of THAT temple at all, but of a “rebuilt” temple — a DIFFERENT temple, a temple made of DIFFERENT stones, a temple of about 2,000 years later? We believe the answer is evident.

Whether the Jews will build another temple in Palestine is not the issue. The point is that Jesus was speaking of the temple of his day and it was that temple which was to be destroyed by heathen armies — a prophecy which was fulfilled in 70 A. D.

Concerning the destruction of the temple, the disciples asked when it would be destroyed and what sign would be given in warning. The Bible says: “And Jesus ANSWERED . . .” But those who think the prophecy of Matthew 24 refers to a future temple are at a complete loss to show one verse in this chapter where Jesus ever answered these questions! The disciples asked about the destruction of the temple that stood in Jerusalem, and then (according to the futurist interpretation) Jesus started talking about something altogether different — a temple that was yet 2,000 years in the future! If this is true, then Jesus never answered the very questions the Bible says he answered!

On the other hand, when we understand that the abomination that would make desolate was heathen armies that would destroy Jerusalem, there is harmony. Then, and only then, did Jesus really answer what he was asked.

The teaching that the abomination of desolation is something yet future, not only requires a future and different temple, but such a temple — instead of being destroyed — is pictured as a place where the antichrist would set up an idol to be worshipped. If so, instead of the temple being destroyed, it would be preserved as a shrine of false religion.

Obviously these ideas cannot possibly fit in with the context of Matthew 24 or the other accounts. To try to force a preserved temple (instead of one that was to be destroyed) into the Olivet discourse is to put something there for which there is no basis whatsoever.

In view of these things, we reject the idea that the abomination of desolation is something yet future. It was fulfilled in those events surrounding the desolation of Jerusalem in 70 A. D. — fulfilled fully and completely.

Continuing now, we read the scriptures which told the disciples to flee.

Matthew: “Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains; Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take anything out of the house; neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day” (24:16-20).

Mark: “Then let them that be in Judea flee to the mountains; and let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein to take anything out of his house. And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! And pray ye that your flight be not in winter” (13:14-18).

Luke: “Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries [fields or farms] enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!” (21:21-23).

When the time came, the disciples were to flee without delay. They were not to try to take their possessions with them. Such actions might have been questioned and the escape hindered.

They were told to pray that their flight would not be in winter lest the elements delay and hinder; neither on the sabbath. Making their escape on the sabbath, could have easily brought them into suspicion by those who held that only a short distance (at a slow pace) could be traveled on that day. Naturally, there would also be problems for those with small children.

The area from which they were to flee was Judea and especially Jerusalem. They were to flee into the mountains. The setting is definitely Palestine, and the time — as indicated by the prophecy itself, as well as the historical fulfillment — was back in the first century!

Not understanding that the “fleeing into the mountains” has already taken place, William Blackstone, in 1935, sent workers to Petra where they placed Hebrew Bibles (encased in copper boxes) in some of the caves in that area. He believed the Jews would flee into these mountains during the tribulation period and read his Bibles!

Another futurist writer says that the passage under consideration refers to “atomic warfare”, that safety will only be found in the mountains for those in Judea, and that when they flee to the mountains, they should not take their clothing because it will be “dangerously radio active.” The “woe” to those with child and that give suck, is taken to mean that due to atomic explosions, even the mothers’ milk may be “harmfully radio active.” The verse that says, “Pray ye that your flight be not in winter, neither on the sabbath day”, is interpreted to mean that the weekends, especially in winter, will be times of the greatest danger. It is pointed out that Hitler chose weekends for his big surprises and that the Japanese did so at Pearl Harbor. Finally, the writer says: “if a surprise attack comes, therefore, it is most likely to be on a weekend. It would be good insurance to be particularly well prepared at such times, especially in winter”!10

In all due respect to fine men who have taught such things, we must say that only by taking this passage out of its context and by minimizing (or ignoring) the historical fulfillment, can these words be thus applied.

Why were the disciples told to flee out of Jerusalem and Judea prior to 70 A.D.? The passage continues with the explanation: “For then shall be great tribulation”!

Copyrighted material used by permission of the Ralph Woodrow Evangelistic Association.

PO Box 21, Palm Springs, CA 92263

Website: www.ralphwoodrow.org

Notes

  1. Henry, Commentary on the Whole Bible, vol.5, p. 352.
  2. Josephus, Wars of the Jews, II, chapters 15-19.
  3. Ibid, 19:5-8.
  4. Newton, Dissertations on the Prophecies, p.389; also see Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, Bk. 3, chapter 5; Edersheim, Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, p.448.
  5. Clarke’s Commentary, Vol. 1, Matthew-Acts, p.228.
  6. Josephus, Wars of the Jews, Bk. III, 1:1-3; IV, 9-11.
  7. Roberts, How to be Personally Prepared for the Second Coming of Christ, p.38.
  8. De Haan, The Antichrist and Armageddon, p. 13.
  9. Blackstone, Jesus is Coming, p. 187.
  10. Halff, Will there be a War Between Russia and America?, pp.32-35.
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,777
3,419
Non-dispensationalist
✟359,569.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
The problem is the term "the time of the end" is qualified by what or whose rule it is referring to. The "time of the end" for Antiochus 4, for example, refers not to the time of the end of the age, but rather, to the time of the end of Antiochus' rule.
The time of the end which the Abomination of Desolation will take place is characterized by Daniel 12:4.

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

upload_2021-6-21_2-31-53.jpeg


upload_2021-6-21_2-34-50.jpeg
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,777
3,419
Non-dispensationalist
✟359,569.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Having set forth what we sincerely believe to be the exact and only fulfillment of our Lord’s words, we must now consider an interpretation which has become widely believed, especially in this century. We have reference to the teaching that the “abomination of desolation” is an idol to be placed in the holy of holies of a rebuilt Jewish temple — possibly an idol of the antichrist or the antichrist himself. This interpretation has it that the “abomination of desolation” is yet FUTURE!

An example of the futurist interpretation is seen in the following: “The Jews — who will have.., restored Herod’s Temple, and be in league with Antichrist — will have a visit by the False Prophet who shall bring an image of the Antichrist into Jerusalem and wheel it into the temple . . . When this image of the Antichrist is taken into the Jewish temple, that will be the sign Jesus mentioned in Matthew 24, the Abomination of Desolation.”7

Another futurist writer says: “This image will be placed in the Jewish temple in Jerusalem, and is the ‘abomination of desolation’ to which the Lord made reference in his Olivet discourse.”8 According to the futurist position, the abomination of desolation will be “an idol placed in the holy of holies of the temple during the reign of Antichrist.”9

In disagreeing with the futurist interpretation, it is certainly not our intention to treat lightly the beliefs of fine men of God who hold this position. Nevertheless, we feel that the futurist interpretation will not stand up under investigation.

1. The setting up of an idol in the sanctuary is something the enemy could not do until such a time as the temple would be in the enemies’ possession. Since the magnificent temple would no doubt be the last thing to be yielded to the enemy in battle, by this time the city would have already been captured and it would be too late for the disciples to flee! Obviously then, this could not be the sign to flee. In order for something to be a warning for the disciples to escape, it would have to come before the capture of the city — not something to take place afterward!

In view of this, an idol in the holy of holies could not be the sign Jesus referred to. But the presence of heathen armies compassing Jerusalem could be — and was — the sign, such happening before the overthrow of the city (as we have seen).

2. The very prophecy indicates that the “abomination” would destroy the city and the temple — would make it desolate. This is exactly what the heathen armies did. But with the teaching that the “abomination” is to be an idol set up in the temple, there is nothing but contradiction. How could the abomination be an idol set up in the temple, when the temple was to be destroyed by the abomination? An idol could not be set up in the temple if the temple was destroyed. It should be pointed out also, that while idols are, of course, abominable, they are not desolators! It is armies that make desolate, not a powerless idol!

3. The “abomination” that would make desolate was to be something that could be SEEN by the inhabitants of Judea and Jerusalem. “When you SEE the abomination”; that is, “When you SEE Jerusalem compassed with armies”, then, “let them that are in Judea flee into the mountains.” It is evident that Jesus was not talking about an idol in the holy of holies, for such could not be SEEN by the population of Jerusalem and Judea. Only the high priest entered the holy of holies. None of the ordinary Jews would dare enter there.

It was not an idol in the Jewish holy of holies that destroyed the city and temple! It was not an idol in the holy of holies that was seen by the population of Jerusalem! When the disciples fled into the mountains of Judea, it had nothing to do with any idol whatsoever!

On the other hand, it was pagan armies that destroyed the city and temple. It was armies which were seen by the people, and it was the compassing of Jerusalem by armies that warned the disciples to flee!

The futurist interpretation regarding the abomination of desolation must teach that the Jewish temple will be rebuilt — in order to have a place for the abominable idol to be placed. But we feel this is a very unsound form of interpretation, for it completely ignores the context! What temple was the subject of our Lord’s Olivet discourse? Was Jesus talking about that temple of his day or a rebuilt temple 2,000 years later? Notice: “And as he [Jesus] went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here! And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? There shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And as he sat upon the Mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked him privately, Tell us, when shall these things be? And what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?” (Mk. 13:1-4; also Mt. 24; Lk. 21).

In this passage, Jesus was speaking of the temple of his day; he talked about the stones which it contained, had the disciples look at it, answered questions about it! Are we to assume that he was not actually speaking of THAT temple at all, but of a “rebuilt” temple — a DIFFERENT temple, a temple made of DIFFERENT stones, a temple of about 2,000 years later? We believe the answer is evident.

Whether the Jews will build another temple in Palestine is not the issue. The point is that Jesus was speaking of the temple of his day and it was that temple which was to be destroyed by heathen armies — a prophecy which was fulfilled in 70 A. D.

Concerning the destruction of the temple, the disciples asked when it would be destroyed and what sign would be given in warning. The Bible says: “And Jesus ANSWERED . . .” But those who think the prophecy of Matthew 24 refers to a future temple are at a complete loss to show one verse in this chapter where Jesus ever answered these questions! The disciples asked about the destruction of the temple that stood in Jerusalem, and then (according to the futurist interpretation) Jesus started talking about something altogether different — a temple that was yet 2,000 years in the future! If this is true, then Jesus never answered the very questions the Bible says he answered!

On the other hand, when we understand that the abomination that would make desolate was heathen armies that would destroy Jerusalem, there is harmony. Then, and only then, did Jesus really answer what he was asked.

The teaching that the abomination of desolation is something yet future, not only requires a future and different temple, but such a temple — instead of being destroyed — is pictured as a place where the antichrist would set up an idol to be worshipped. If so, instead of the temple being destroyed, it would be preserved as a shrine of false religion.

Obviously these ideas cannot possibly fit in with the context of Matthew 24 or the other accounts. To try to force a preserved temple (instead of one that was to be destroyed) into the Olivet discourse is to put something there for which there is no basis whatsoever.

In view of these things, we reject the idea that the abomination of desolation is something yet future. It was fulfilled in those events surrounding the desolation of Jerusalem in 70 A. D. — fulfilled fully and completely.

Continuing now, we read the scriptures which told the disciples to flee.

Matthew: “Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains; Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take anything out of the house; neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day” (24:16-20).

Mark: “Then let them that be in Judea flee to the mountains; and let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein to take anything out of his house. And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! And pray ye that your flight be not in winter” (13:14-18).

Luke: “Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries [fields or farms] enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!” (21:21-23).

When the time came, the disciples were to flee without delay. They were not to try to take their possessions with them. Such actions might have been questioned and the escape hindered.

They were told to pray that their flight would not be in winter lest the elements delay and hinder; neither on the sabbath. Making their escape on the sabbath, could have easily brought them into suspicion by those who held that only a short distance (at a slow pace) could be traveled on that day. Naturally, there would also be problems for those with small children.

The area from which they were to flee was Judea and especially Jerusalem. They were to flee into the mountains. The setting is definitely Palestine, and the time — as indicated by the prophecy itself, as well as the historical fulfillment — was back in the first century!

Not understanding that the “fleeing into the mountains” has already taken place, William Blackstone, in 1935, sent workers to Petra where they placed Hebrew Bibles (encased in copper boxes) in some of the caves in that area. He believed the Jews would flee into these mountains during the tribulation period and read his Bibles!

Another futurist writer says that the passage under consideration refers to “atomic warfare”, that safety will only be found in the mountains for those in Judea, and that when they flee to the mountains, they should not take their clothing because it will be “dangerously radio active.” The “woe” to those with child and that give suck, is taken to mean that due to atomic explosions, even the mothers’ milk may be “harmfully radio active.” The verse that says, “Pray ye that your flight be not in winter, neither on the sabbath day”, is interpreted to mean that the weekends, especially in winter, will be times of the greatest danger. It is pointed out that Hitler chose weekends for his big surprises and that the Japanese did so at Pearl Harbor. Finally, the writer says: “if a surprise attack comes, therefore, it is most likely to be on a weekend. It would be good insurance to be particularly well prepared at such times, especially in winter”!10

In all due respect to fine men who have taught such things, we must say that only by taking this passage out of its context and by minimizing (or ignoring) the historical fulfillment, can these words be thus applied.

Why were the disciples told to flee out of Jerusalem and Judea prior to 70 A.D.? The passage continues with the explanation: “For then shall be great tribulation”!

Copyrighted material used by permission of the Ralph Woodrow Evangelistic Association.

PO Box 21, Palm Springs, CA 92263

Website: www.ralphwoodrow.org

Notes

  1. Henry, Commentary on the Whole Bible, vol.5, p. 352.
  2. Josephus, Wars of the Jews, II, chapters 15-19.
  3. Ibid, 19:5-8.
  4. Newton, Dissertations on the Prophecies, p.389; also see Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, Bk. 3, chapter 5; Edersheim, Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, p.448.
  5. Clarke’s Commentary, Vol. 1, Matthew-Acts, p.228.
  6. Josephus, Wars of the Jews, Bk. III, 1:1-3; IV, 9-11.
  7. Roberts, How to be Personally Prepared for the Second Coming of Christ, p.38.
  8. De Haan, The Antichrist and Armageddon, p. 13.
  9. Blackstone, Jesus is Coming, p. 187.
  10. Halff, Will there be a War Between Russia and America?, pp.32-35.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

A couple of notes:

1. The people have to be able to see it.

2. in the holy place. Not in the holy of holies.

The Abomination of Desolation will be a statue image of sufficient size, set up, placed on the temple mount courtyard - where it can be viewed, seen. The temple mount is considered a holy place.

People will be required to worship it. So it has to be out in the open, where people can go and bow down to it. Not inside the temple sanctuary, which only certain people can go into.

It is possible that the size of the image will be the same as the statue in Daniel 3, that Nebuchadnezzar had setup. Height 60 cubits, breath 6 cubits. Which is 84 feet by 8.4 feet. Which would certainly be visible to anyone in the vicinity.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Jeffwhosoever

Faithful Servant & Seminary Student
Christian Forums Staff
Chaplain
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Sep 21, 2009
28,133
3,878
Southern US
✟394,089.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Its coming. The Olivet discourse was neither Preterist nor Historicist but Futurist. Historicism was abandoned apparently long ago in the 1950s after realizing the world was not headed toward worldwide Christianity. Even the book 4 views of Revelation dismiss it as irrelevant and that book has a chapter by Ken Gentry, an expert on Preterism.
 
Upvote 0

RandyPNW

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2021
2,252
460
Pacific NW, USA
✟105,128.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican

For me it is debatable. I take the approach that the "time of the end" is qualified by its more immediate context. In Dan 11, the "time of the end" is qualified by what had already been identified as the King of the South and the King of the North, which we know took place in the time of the reign of Antiochus 4. This has to do with the "time of the end" of Antiochus 4's reign.

In Dan 12, the "time of the end" is associated with the resurrection, which we know is at the end of Israel's tribulations, or Diaspora. So this is a different "end" associated with other things.

Later in ch. 12, mention is made, once again, of the reign of Antiochus 4, lasting 1290 days. This is not the end of the age, but rather, one of the future events that Daniel was made aware of.

Dan 12.8 I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, “My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?”

Ch. 12 summarizes the book of Daniel in two of the most important future prophecies concerning Israel--the end of the age, preceded by the reign of Antichrist for 3.5 years, and the reign of Antiochus 4, which lasted 1290 days. It was on the 1335th day that the news of his demise reached Israel, perhaps?

The end of the age:
Dan 12.7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.”

Antiochus 4's Reign:
Dan 12.11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days."
 
Upvote 0

RandyPNW

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2021
2,252
460
Pacific NW, USA
✟105,128.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Except there is no historical record of an AoD in 70AD. None whatsoever.

Obviously, there was in fact evidence of an AoD in 70 AD since the Church Fathers interpreted it as such. It's just that there are different definitions of the AoD. But there is no question that they found evidence of it being at that time, regardless of what it precisely meant.

My own view is that the AoD is the Roman Army itself. A pagan Army is viewed as an "abomination" by the Jewish People, just as idolatrous images are viewed as abominable by the Jewish religion.

It was the Roman Army that surrounded Jerusalem, and it was this thing that Jesus identified as the AoD. And it was the Roman Army that "desolated" Jerusalem and the temple. Was there evidence, then, that the AoD took place at that time? Of course. Defining precisely what it is sometimes causes confusion, though. There are several different views on what, precisely, the AoD consisted of.

The AoD will be at the Second Coming. 99% of the Olivet Discourse is about the Second Coming. 1% was about fleeing from the Roman Army a few years prior to 70AD.

This does *not* make sense to me! How can 1% be about 70 AD and 99% be about the last days? Can you imagine I make a public announcement to Americans that New York City is about to blow up, but then go on to talk about Heaven? Makes no sense at all!

It makes much more sense to me that Jesus acted as a prophet to his own generation, focusing on what they would have to deal with first, and only after that, showing how this relates to the last days.

Jesus was saying that in their own day the time of Jewish Punishment would begin with the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. The Jews would sort of "wander" for the next 2000 years or so. But the Son of Man would return to destroy his enemies and save Israel.

Jesus did not dwell on Herod's Temple being destroyed. Herod's Temple was never part of God's plan. Show me one verse of the OD, not what Jesus prophecied coming out of Herod's Temple, that shows Jerusalem and the temple being destroyed. The answer to their questions, not the prophecy that prompted them to ask the questions.

Your question is bizarre. You want a verse from the Olivet Discourse, but not when Jesus came out of the temple area? Obviously, if Jesus gave his Olivet Discourse after coming out of the temple area, it is difficult to do what you ask! ;)

Nevertheless, the following may be a repetition of the same material as given in the Olivet Discourse...
Luke 19.41 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42 and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43 The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44 They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.”
 
  • Winner
Reactions: jgr
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,777
3,419
Non-dispensationalist
✟359,569.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
For me it is debatable. I take the approach that the "time of the end" is qualified by its more immediate context. In Dan 11, the "time of the end" is qualified by what had already been identified as the King of the South and the King of the North, which we know took place in the time of the reign of Antiochus 4. This has to do with the "time of the end" of Antiochus 4's reign.
Time of the end in Daniel 11 begins in v36. Antiochus is in Daniel 11, agreed. But before the time of the end. v35 is the transition from Antiochus's day to time of the end of the willful king (the beast) in v36.
 
Upvote 0

jgr

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,007
✟784,067.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

A couple of notes:

1. The people have to be able to see it.

2. in the holy place. Not in the holy of holies.

The Abomination of Desolation will be a statue image of sufficient size, set up, placed on the temple mount courtyard - where it can be viewed, seen. The temple mount is considered a holy place.

People will be required to worship it. So it has to be out in the open, where people can go and bow down to it. Not inside the temple sanctuary, which only certain people can go into.

It is possible that the size of the image will be the same as the statue in Daniel 3, that Nebuchadnezzar had setup. Height 60 cubits, breath 6 cubits. Which is 84 feet by 8.4 feet. Which would certainly be visible to anyone in the vicinity.

Scripture and the explanation reveal clearly what the abomination of desolation was.

It was seen by the people.

It was seen in the holy city of Jerusalem.

It was the Roman army.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,318
568
56
Mount Morris
✟125,059.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Obviously, there was in fact evidence of an AoD in 70 AD since the Church Fathers interpreted it as such. It's just that there are different definitions of the AoD. But there is no question that they found evidence of it being at that time, regardless of what it precisely meant.

My own view is that the AoD is the Roman Army itself. A pagan Army is viewed as an "abomination" by the Jewish People, just as idolatrous images are viewed as abominable by the Jewish religion.

It was the Roman Army that surrounded Jerusalem, and it was this thing that Jesus identified as the AoD. And it was the Roman Army that "desolated" Jerusalem and the temple. Was there evidence, then, that the AoD took place at that time? Of course. Defining precisely what it is sometimes causes confusion, though. There are several different views on what, precisely, the AoD consisted of.



This does *not* make sense to me! How can 1% be about 70 AD and 99% be about the last days? Can you imagine I make a public announcement to Americans that New York City is about to blow up, but then go on to talk about Heaven? Makes no sense at all!

It makes much more sense to me that Jesus acted as a prophet to his own generation, focusing on what they would have to deal with first, and only after that, showing how this relates to the last days.

Jesus was saying that in their own day the time of Jewish Punishment would begin with the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. The Jews would sort of "wander" for the next 2000 years or so. But the Son of Man would return to destroy his enemies and save Israel.



Your question is bizarre. You want a verse from the Olivet Discourse, but not when Jesus came out of the temple area? Obviously, if Jesus gave his Olivet Discourse after coming out of the temple area, it is difficult to do what you ask! ;)

Nevertheless, the following may be a repetition of the same material as given in the Olivet Discourse...
Luke 19.41 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42 and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43 The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44 They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.”
Why would Jesus not answer their question about His Second Coming and the time of the end? That is what they asked. Since the Second Coming was not in 70AD, Jesus did not address 70AD. The OD is about the Second Coming.

Daniel 9:27 is not about 70AD. This verse is about the Second Coming. You can call the Roman Army the AC and it still would not be what Jesus Addressed in the OD.

Do you think that Jesus just ignored their question about the Second Coming, and decided not to mention a single thing about it? That seems to be what historist and preterist are trying to prove.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

jgr

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,007
✟784,067.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Its coming. The Olivet discourse was neither Preterist nor Historicist but Futurist. Historicism was abandoned apparently long ago in the 1950s after realizing the world was not headed toward worldwide Christianity. Even the book 4 views of Revelation dismiss it as irrelevant and that book has a chapter by Ken Gentry, an expert on Preterism.

Historicism presents evidence.

Futurism cannot, since there is no evidence for what has not happened.
 
Upvote 0

Alive2

Active Member
Dec 20, 2019
38
18
68
OKlahoma
✟27,285.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Having set forth what we sincerely believe to be the exact and only fulfillment of our Lord’s words, we must now consider an interpretation which has become widely believed, especially in this century. We have reference to the teaching that the “abomination of desolation” is an idol to be placed in the holy of holies of a rebuilt Jewish temple — possibly an idol of the antichrist or the antichrist himself. This interpretation has it that the “abomination of desolation” is yet FUTURE!

An example of the futurist interpretation is seen in the following: “The Jews — who will have.., restored Herod’s Temple, and be in league with Antichrist — will have a visit by the False Prophet who shall bring an image of the Antichrist into Jerusalem and wheel it into the temple . . . When this image of the Antichrist is taken into the Jewish temple, that will be the sign Jesus mentioned in Matthew 24, the Abomination of Desolation.”7

Another futurist writer says: “This image will be placed in the Jewish temple in Jerusalem, and is the ‘abomination of desolation’ to which the Lord made reference in his Olivet discourse.”8 According to the futurist position, the abomination of desolation will be “an idol placed in the holy of holies of the temple during the reign of Antichrist.”9

In disagreeing with the futurist interpretation, it is certainly not our intention to treat lightly the beliefs of fine men of God who hold this position. Nevertheless, we feel that the futurist interpretation will not stand up under investigation.

1. The setting up of an idol in the sanctuary is something the enemy could not do until such a time as the temple would be in the enemies’ possession. Since the magnificent temple would no doubt be the last thing to be yielded to the enemy in battle, by this time the city would have already been captured and it would be too late for the disciples to flee! Obviously then, this could not be the sign to flee. In order for something to be a warning for the disciples to escape, it would have to come before the capture of the city — not something to take place afterward!

In view of this, an idol in the holy of holies could not be the sign Jesus referred to. But the presence of heathen armies compassing Jerusalem could be — and was — the sign, such happening before the overthrow of the city (as we have seen).

2. The very prophecy indicates that the “abomination” would destroy the city and the temple — would make it desolate. This is exactly what the heathen armies did. But with the teaching that the “abomination” is to be an idol set up in the temple, there is nothing but contradiction. How could the abomination be an idol set up in the temple, when the temple was to be destroyed by the abomination? An idol could not be set up in the temple if the temple was destroyed. It should be pointed out also, that while idols are, of course, abominable, they are not desolators! It is armies that make desolate, not a powerless idol!

3. The “abomination” that would make desolate was to be something that could be SEEN by the inhabitants of Judea and Jerusalem. “When you SEE the abomination”; that is, “When you SEE Jerusalem compassed with armies”, then, “let them that are in Judea flee into the mountains.” It is evident that Jesus was not talking about an idol in the holy of holies, for such could not be SEEN by the population of Jerusalem and Judea. Only the high priest entered the holy of holies. None of the ordinary Jews would dare enter there.

It was not an idol in the Jewish holy of holies that destroyed the city and temple! It was not an idol in the holy of holies that was seen by the population of Jerusalem! When the disciples fled into the mountains of Judea, it had nothing to do with any idol whatsoever!

On the other hand, it was pagan armies that destroyed the city and temple. It was armies which were seen by the people, and it was the compassing of Jerusalem by armies that warned the disciples to flee!

The futurist interpretation regarding the abomination of desolation must teach that the Jewish temple will be rebuilt — in order to have a place for the abominable idol to be placed. But we feel this is a very unsound form of interpretation, for it completely ignores the context! What temple was the subject of our Lord’s Olivet discourse? Was Jesus talking about that temple of his day or a rebuilt temple 2,000 years later? Notice: “And as he [Jesus] went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here! And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? There shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And as he sat upon the Mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked him privately, Tell us, when shall these things be? And what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?” (Mk. 13:1-4; also Mt. 24; Lk. 21).

In this passage, Jesus was speaking of the temple of his day; he talked about the stones which it contained, had the disciples look at it, answered questions about it! Are we to assume that he was not actually speaking of THAT temple at all, but of a “rebuilt” temple — a DIFFERENT temple, a temple made of DIFFERENT stones, a temple of about 2,000 years later? We believe the answer is evident.

Whether the Jews will build another temple in Palestine is not the issue. The point is that Jesus was speaking of the temple of his day and it was that temple which was to be destroyed by heathen armies — a prophecy which was fulfilled in 70 A. D.

Concerning the destruction of the temple, the disciples asked when it would be destroyed and what sign would be given in warning. The Bible says: “And Jesus ANSWERED . . .” But those who think the prophecy of Matthew 24 refers to a future temple are at a complete loss to show one verse in this chapter where Jesus ever answered these questions! The disciples asked about the destruction of the temple that stood in Jerusalem, and then (according to the futurist interpretation) Jesus started talking about something altogether different — a temple that was yet 2,000 years in the future! If this is true, then Jesus never answered the very questions the Bible says he answered!

On the other hand, when we understand that the abomination that would make desolate was heathen armies that would destroy Jerusalem, there is harmony. Then, and only then, did Jesus really answer what he was asked.

The teaching that the abomination of desolation is something yet future, not only requires a future and different temple, but such a temple — instead of being destroyed — is pictured as a place where the antichrist would set up an idol to be worshipped. If so, instead of the temple being destroyed, it would be preserved as a shrine of false religion.

Obviously these ideas cannot possibly fit in with the context of Matthew 24 or the other accounts. To try to force a preserved temple (instead of one that was to be destroyed) into the Olivet discourse is to put something there for which there is no basis whatsoever.

In view of these things, we reject the idea that the abomination of desolation is something yet future. It was fulfilled in those events surrounding the desolation of Jerusalem in 70 A. D. — fulfilled fully and completely.

Continuing now, we read the scriptures which told the disciples to flee.

Matthew: “Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains; Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take anything out of the house; neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day” (24:16-20).

Mark: “Then let them that be in Judea flee to the mountains; and let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein to take anything out of his house. And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! And pray ye that your flight be not in winter” (13:14-18).

Luke: “Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries [fields or farms] enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!” (21:21-23).

When the time came, the disciples were to flee without delay. They were not to try to take their possessions with them. Such actions might have been questioned and the escape hindered.

They were told to pray that their flight would not be in winter lest the elements delay and hinder; neither on the sabbath. Making their escape on the sabbath, could have easily brought them into suspicion by those who held that only a short distance (at a slow pace) could be traveled on that day. Naturally, there would also be problems for those with small children.

The area from which they were to flee was Judea and especially Jerusalem. They were to flee into the mountains. The setting is definitely Palestine, and the time — as indicated by the prophecy itself, as well as the historical fulfillment — was back in the first century!

Not understanding that the “fleeing into the mountains” has already taken place, William Blackstone, in 1935, sent workers to Petra where they placed Hebrew Bibles (encased in copper boxes) in some of the caves in that area. He believed the Jews would flee into these mountains during the tribulation period and read his Bibles!

Another futurist writer says that the passage under consideration refers to “atomic warfare”, that safety will only be found in the mountains for those in Judea, and that when they flee to the mountains, they should not take their clothing because it will be “dangerously radio active.” The “woe” to those with child and that give suck, is taken to mean that due to atomic explosions, even the mothers’ milk may be “harmfully radio active.” The verse that says, “Pray ye that your flight be not in winter, neither on the sabbath day”, is interpreted to mean that the weekends, especially in winter, will be times of the greatest danger. It is pointed out that Hitler chose weekends for his big surprises and that the Japanese did so at Pearl Harbor. Finally, the writer says: “if a surprise attack comes, therefore, it is most likely to be on a weekend. It would be good insurance to be particularly well prepared at such times, especially in winter”!10

In all due respect to fine men who have taught such things, we must say that only by taking this passage out of its context and by minimizing (or ignoring) the historical fulfillment, can these words be thus applied.

Why were the disciples told to flee out of Jerusalem and Judea prior to 70 A.D.? The passage continues with the explanation: “For then shall be great tribulation”!

Copyrighted material used by permission of the Ralph Woodrow Evangelistic Association.

PO Box 21, Palm Springs, CA 92263

Website: www.ralphwoodrow.org

Notes

  1. Henry, Commentary on the Whole Bible, vol.5, p. 352.
  2. Josephus, Wars of the Jews, II, chapters 15-19.
  3. Ibid, 19:5-8.
  4. Newton, Dissertations on the Prophecies, p.389; also see Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, Bk. 3, chapter 5; Edersheim, Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, p.448.
  5. Clarke’s Commentary, Vol. 1, Matthew-Acts, p.228.
  6. Josephus, Wars of the Jews, Bk. III, 1:1-3; IV, 9-11.
  7. Roberts, How to be Personally Prepared for the Second Coming of Christ, p.38.
  8. De Haan, The Antichrist and Armageddon, p. 13.
  9. Blackstone, Jesus is Coming, p. 187.
  10. Halff, Will there be a War Between Russia and America?, pp.32-35.
Well done! Excellent and thank you.
 
Upvote 0

jgr

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,007
✟784,067.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Why would Jesus not answer their question about His Second Coming and the time of the end?

He did.

Matthew 24
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,777
3,419
Non-dispensationalist
✟359,569.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Scripture and the explanation reveal clearly what the abomination of desolation was.

It was seen by the people.

It was seen in the holy city of Jerusalem.

It was the Roman army.
The AoD was not the Roman army. Antiochus, in Daniel 11:31, polluted the sanctuary - i.e. the temple, with having the abomination of desolation placed in the temple - which prefigured the end times abomination of desolation - so we know what it will be. A statue image.

31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Alive2

Active Member
Dec 20, 2019
38
18
68
OKlahoma
✟27,285.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Its coming. The Olivet discourse was neither Preterist nor Historicist but Futurist. Historicism was abandoned apparently long ago in the 1950s after realizing the world was not headed toward worldwide Christianity. Even the book 4 views of Revelation dismiss it as irrelevant and that book has a chapter by Ken Gentry, an expert on Preterism.
One of the pivoting factors in determining the Olivet discourse is the time of the writing of John's Revelation. Ken Gentry does a bang up and almost painfully honest job of looking at this. Whether you agree with his conclusions or not, it is an education in history as well as a discriminating look at relevant scripture.
"Before the Fall of Jerusalem"---Ken Gentry
 
Upvote 0

Jeffwhosoever

Faithful Servant & Seminary Student
Christian Forums Staff
Chaplain
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Sep 21, 2009
28,133
3,878
Southern US
✟394,089.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Historicism presents evidence.

Futurism cannot, since there is no evidence for what has not happened.

Historicism is dead as far as our first study book is concerned, including the one I have that Dr. Kenneth Gentry, renowned Preterist, wrote a chapter in. Honestly before this study I never knew it existed. The authors of the 4 views of Revelation claim it died because it held the view that the world would become 100% Christian, a view abandoned after World War 2, at least according to this book with some very reputable authors including Dr. Gentry.
https://www.amazon.com/Four-Views-B...0210801/ref=pd_lpo_2?pd_rd_i=0310210801&psc=1
 
Upvote 0

Jeffwhosoever

Faithful Servant & Seminary Student
Christian Forums Staff
Chaplain
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Sep 21, 2009
28,133
3,878
Southern US
✟394,089.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
upload_2021-6-21_23-38-15.png


https://www.amazon.com/Four-Views-B...0210801/ref=pd_lpo_2?pd_rd_i=0310210801&psc=1

Note that Dr. Kenneth Gentry apparently agrees with this introduction to a book he helped author that concludes the Historicist view is "passed from the scene" and "having passed to obscurity".

I didn't make it up what I claimed earlier, as you can now see with your own eyes.

I will note Steve Gregg includes Historicism in his 4 views of Revelation, along with Futurism, Preterism, and Idealism, but after reading it for some time, my bible study group has stopped considering the Historicism view, in light of the statement above and our own findings in the Steve Gregg book that it seems the least plausible interpretation of the book of Revelation. No need to study what is no longer considered. Further, it is crystal clear the world is not headed toward any future where Christianity is the sole faith of the world. Islam is rising faster and is another sign that to us points to Futurism as the better interpretation of Revelation. And to be clear, by "us" I mean a group of senior Christians who are well established in the Christian Faith, not the consensus of ChristianForums.com in the least. But none of us have masters or doctorates in Theology either, though I myself am planning to enroll in an online seminary soon. Possibly Dallas Theological Seminary.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

jgr

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,007
✟784,067.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
View attachment 301111

https://www.amazon.com/Four-Views-B...0210801/ref=pd_lpo_2?pd_rd_i=0310210801&psc=1

Note that Dr. Kenneth Gentry apparently agrees with this introduction to a book he helped author that concludes the Historicist view is "passed from the scene" and "having passed to obscurity".

I didn't make it up what I claimed earlier, as you can now see with your own eyes.

I will note Steve Gregg includes Historicism in his 4 views of Revelation, along with Futurism, Preterism, and Idealism, but after reading it for some time, my bible study group has stopped considering the Historicism view, in light of the statement above and our own findings in the Steve Gregg book that it seems the least plausible interpretation of the book of Revelation. No need to study what is no longer considered. Further, it is crystal clear the world is not headed toward any future where Christianity is the sole faith of the world. Islam is rising faster and is another sign that to us points to Futurism as the better interpretation of Revelation. And to be clear, by "us" I mean a group of senior Christians who are well established in the Christian Faith, not the consensus of ChristianForums.com in the least. But none of us have masters or doctorates in Theology either, though I myself am planning to enroll in an online seminary soon. Possibly Dallas Theological Seminary.

To reiterate:

Historicism presents evidence.

Futurism cannot, since there is no evidence for what has not happened.

Notable historicists:

Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Foxe, Thomas Brightman, Joseph Mede, Sir Isaac Newton, Bengel, Matthew Henry, Jonathan Edwards, John Gill, E.B. Elliott, H. Grattan Guinness, Charles Spurgeon, A.J. Gordon, A.B. Simpson, E.P. Cachemaille, Basil Atkinson, LeRoy Froom

Historicism was a cornerstone of the Reformation, and integral and indispensable to its success.

What is Kenneth Gentry's view of the Reformation?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Jeffwhosoever

Faithful Servant & Seminary Student
Christian Forums Staff
Chaplain
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Sep 21, 2009
28,133
3,878
Southern US
✟394,089.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
To reiterate:

Historicism presents evidence.

Futurism cannot, since there is no evidence for what has not happened.

Notable historicists:

Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Foxe, Thomas Brightman, Joseph Mede, Sir Isaac Newton, Bengel, Matthew Henry, Jonathan Edwards, John Gill, E.B. Elliott, H. Grattan Guinness, Charles Spurgeon, A.J. Gordon, A.B. Simpson, E.P. Cachemaille, Basil Atkinson, LeRoy Froom

Historicism was a cornerstone of the Reformation, and integral and indispensable to its success.

What is Kenneth Gentry's view of the Reformation?

Any notable Historicist born after World War 2? My book I cite above says the view was strong until then, and only faded after the 2nd world war, in light of the fact the world was not destined to become 100% Christian, as we can see today with plenty of clear evidence.

The title of the book I cited is:
Four Views on the Book of Revelation Paperback – April 1, 1998

written 23 years ago isn't that historical evidence?



Scripture is our evidence, in that the recorded word of God documents the future events, so for a Futurist, the word of God is good enough. John wrote Revelation, which is a canonical book of Scripture, good enough for me.

I pointed out Steve Gregg's book does still cover Historicism. We just find it as the book co-authored by by C. Marvin Pate (Author, Editor), Stanley N. Gundry (Series Editor), Kenneth L. Gentry Jr. (Contributor), Sam Hamstra Jr. (Contributor), Robert L. Thomas (Contributor) to make a solid point about Historicism having faded in signficance due to the events of World War 2 and following.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0