The Hebrew text of Genesis 1-11

PrincetonGuy

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The vast majority of scholars of the Hebrew text of Genesis 1-11 (both Christian and Jewish) ignore the interpretation of the passage in a manner that allows young earth creationism to be a Biblical doctrine. Indeed, they ignore the interpretation of the passage in such a manner because the Hebrew text does not allow for that interpretation. Why? Because Genesis 1-11 is written in a genre of literature that is greatly different from the rest of Genesis—and that genre of literature is the same genre of literature in which epic tales, sages, myths, and legends are written. Moreover, it depicts the earth as having been created flat and covered with a solid dome with real, genuine windows (or floodgates) in it that God opened during the flood to allow the waters from above the dome to flow out.

Gen. 1:6. And God said, "Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters."
7. So God made the dome and separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome. And it was so.
8. God called the dome Sky. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.

Gen. 7:11. In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened. (NRSV)


Gen. 1:6. Then God said, "Let there be a dome in the middle of the waters, to separate one body of water from the other." And so it happened:
7. God made the dome, and it separated the water above the dome from the water below it.
8. God called the dome "the sky." Evening came, and morning followed-the second day.

Gen. 7:11. In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month: it was on that day that
All the fountains of the great abyss burst forth,
and the floodgates of the sky were opened. (NAB)


The doctrine of young earth creationism requires that this language be spiritualized or poeticized while interpreting the six days, etc., as literal! As a conservative, evangelical Christian, I believe that the Bible should be very carefully read rather than messed with to force it to defend ones own person beliefs.
 
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The doctrine of young earth creationism requires that this language be spiritualized or poeticized while interpreting the six days, etc., as literal! As a conservative, evangelical Christian, I believe that the Bible should be very carefully read rather than messed with to force it to defend ones own person beliefs.
Hi, Princeton! :wave: Nice to meet you.

We don't have the Hebrew text of Genesis 1-11.

We might have a Hebrew text of Genesis 1-11.

But we don't have the Hebrew text of Genesis 1-11.

And we most certainly don't have the autographs (source documents, written in their own handwriting).
 
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PrincetonGuy

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I have here in my study hundreds of volumes on the Old Testament that cite the Masoretic Text simply as “the Hebrew Text” because everyone who is familiar with the Old Testament understands that citation. Moreover, I quoted from the New Revised Standard Version and the New American Bible in which the Old Testament portion is translated from the Masoretic Text.
 
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I have here in my study hundreds of volumes on the Old Testament that cite the Masoretic Text simply as “the Hebrew Text” because everyone who is familiar with the Old Testament understands that citation. Moreover, I quoted from the New Revised Standard Version and the New American Bible in which the Old Testament portion is translated from the Masoretic Text.
Something wrong with the King James Version?

Personally, I left it up to them to decide which word to use.
 
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I personally don't see a reason to believe that it took God longer than 6 literal days to create the universe. He is pretty mighty, you know?
Yup -- God said what He did, when He did it, where He did it, how He did it, why He did it, what order He did it in, how long it took Him to do it, why it took Him that long, and who the eyewitnesses were.

I find that hard to believe it wasn't anything but literal.
 
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I personally don't see a reason to believe that it took God longer than 6 literal days to create the universe. He is pretty mighty, you know?

I can neither confirm nor deny that; but how do you define a literal day?
 
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PrincetonGuy

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Something wrong with the King James Version?

Personally, I left it up to them to decide which word to use.

Gen. 1:6. And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. (KJV)

The Hebrew Masoretic text of Genesis 1:6-8 expressly describes the creation of a flat earth covered with a dome that “separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome.”

1:6 ויאמר אלהים יהי רקיע בתוך המים ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים׃
1:7 ויעשׂ אלהים את־הרקיע ויבדל בין המים אשׁר מתחת לרקיע ובין המים אשׁר מעל לרקיע ויהי־כן׃
1:8 ויקרא אלהים לרקיע שׁמים ויהי־ערב ויהי־בקר יום שׁני׃

The Septuagint also expressly describes the creation of a flat earth covered with a dome that “separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome.”

Gen 1:6 Καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεός Γενηθήτω στερέωμα ἐν μέσῳ τοῦ ὕδατος καὶ ἔστω διαχωρίζον ἀνὰ μέσον ὕδατος καὶ ὕδατος. καὶ ἐγένετο οὕτως.
Gen 1:7 καὶ ἐποίησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸ στερέωμα, καὶ διεχώρισεν ὁ θεὸς ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ ὕδατος, ὃ ἦν ὑποκάτω τοῦ στερεώματος, καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ ὕδατος τοῦ ἐπάνω τοῦ στερεώματος.
Gen 1:8 καὶ ἐκάλεσεν ὁ θεὸς τὸ στερέωμα οὐρανόν. καὶ εἶδεν ὁ θεὸς ὅτι καλόν. καὶ ἐγένετο ἑσπέρα καὶ ἐγένετο πρωί, ἡμέρα δευτέρα.

The Latin Vulgate also expressly describes the creation of a flat earth covered with a dome that “separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome.”

6. dixit quoque Deus fiat firmamentum in medio aquarum et dividat aquas ab aquis
7. et fecit Deus firmamentum divisitque aquas quae erant sub firmamento ab his quae erant super firmamentum et factum est ita
8. vocavitque Deus firmamentum caelum et factum est vespere et mane dies secundus

The Wycliffe Bible also expressly describes the creation of a flat earth covered with a dome that “separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome.”

6 And God seide, The firmament be maad in the myddis of watris, and departe watrisfro watris.
7And God made the firmament, and departide the watristhat weren vndurthe firmament fro these watris that weren on the firmament; and it was don so.
8 And God clepide the firmament, heuene. And the euentid and morwetid was maad, the secounde dai.

The Wycliffe Bible was translated from the Latin Vulgate and hence used the word ‘firmament’. This word comes to us from the Latin word firmamentum which literally express the concept “that which strengthens or supports”. In Genesis 1:6-8, the word expresses the concept of the strong, solid dome that supported the water above the dome.


The NRSV correctly translates the Hebrew word רָקִיעַ (râqı̂ya‛) as “dome.” The evidence for the correctness of this translation is found in the use of this word in ancient Hebrew literature. Based upon this usage, the Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament by Brown, Driver, and Briggs published by Oxford University gives us the following meaning of it in Gen. 1:6, 7, and 8, “the vault of heaven, or ‘firmament,’ regarded by Hebrews as solid, and supporting ‘waters’ above it.” (p. 956)


6-8 Second Work: The Firmament.—The second fiat calls into existence a firmament, whose function is to divide the primeval waters into an upper and lower ocean, leaving a space between as the theater of further creative developments. The “firmament” is the dome of heaven, which to the ancients was no optical illusion, but a material structure, sometimes compared to an “upper chamber” (Ps. 104:12, Am 9:6) supported by “pillars” (Jb 26:11), and resembling in its surface a “molten mirror” (Jb 37:18). Above this are the heavenly waters, from which the rain descends through “windows” or “doors” (Gn 7:11, 8:2, 2 Ki 7:2, 19) opened and shut by God at His pleasure (Ps 78:23).​

John Skinner, Principal and Professor of Old Testament Language and Literature, Westminster College, Cambridge (in his commentary on Genesis, page 21).

The KJV correctly translates the Hebrew word רָקִיעַ (râqı̂ya‛) as “firmament”, but most modern readers of the KJV are unaware of the meaning of the word and do not realize that it expresses the concept of the strong, solid dome that supported the water above the dome.

By the way, the KJV came down to us through the Bishop’s Bible (as stated in the original preface of the KJV).

Gen 1:6. And God said: let there be a firmament betwene the waters, and let it make a diuision betwene waters and waters. (Bishop’s Bible, 1568)

The Geneva Bible also used the word firmament,

Gen 1:6. Againe God saide, Let there be a firmament in the middes of the waters: and let it separate the waters from the waters. (Geneva Bible, 1587)

Reading Bibles that use terminology that the readers cannot understand has resulted in many very wrong interpretations. The New Revised Standard Version has become the Bible of choice among both religious and secular scholars when quoting from the Bible because it is both extremely accurate and easy to understand. Nonetheless…
 
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miamited

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Hi all,

Well, as I understand the Scriptures, what most of us miss is the purpose for there being this realm in which we live. We live in a created realm of existence. This realm of existence was created, by the one who created it, for a purpose. I fear that too many 'christians' don't understand what that means at its very foundation. They speak of a billions+ year old universe. But if we understand the purpose for which the one who created this realm of existence did it, they the question would have to be asked...Why? Why would this creator create something that was going to sit around for billions of years without the very entity for which it was created for? Do we think that for billions of years God just looked out his picture window and clapped his hands like Eddie Murphy did in the Nutty Professor, "Oh look what I've done. Look at all those pretty stars and over there I see comets dancing across the universe. Oh goody, goody look at it!!!!" And then sometime billions of years later, "Oh, I'm bored with just looking at stars glowing 24-7. I think I'll make something else to kind of give it life. But out of all the gazillion heavenly bodies, I'm only going to do it on this one little tiny piece over there."

I contend that God, from the moment He stepped into the black inky space of this realm before his handiwork, and declared, "Let there be light!", that He knew from those first words that He was making a place for the creature that He knew was to be made in His image. So, what's the purpose of the universe being billions and billions of years old? This fits with the account that He has given us that the earth was created first and was being constructed as a place for man. Then all the heavenly bodies were created because their purpose for existing was for man. For man to tell seasons and times and to understand the glory, power and majesty of the God who created them.

So, I fully understand that 'science' tells us this is not the case. I get it! I just don't believe it! I believe God. I believe that He is a God of purpose and that everything that He does is for a purpose.

God bless,
Ted
 
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miamited

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Hi @PrincetonGuy,

I'm not sure that I follow how translating a word as either 'dome' or 'expanse' has any bearing on understanding the creation event. Just as with many English words, they can be translated into maybe 2 or 3 different words. The translator, who likely knows both the language he is translating and the language he is translating to, much better than you or I, makes a choice as to which one of the few words that could be applied, generally based on context and other indicators of the language being translated, would apply. In this case, most translators have chosen 'expanse' over 'dome'. But, if you prefer 'dome', that's fine, but what difference does it make to the overall account of the event and the veracity or understanding, thereof?

God bless,
Ted
 
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I can neither confirm nor deny that; but how do you define a literal day?
Six 24-hour days. It says

"And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day." - verse 5
"And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day." - verse 8
"And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day." - verse 13
"And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day." - verse 19
"And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day." - verse 23
"And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day." - verse 31

God told us that the days he created the universe in are defined by evening and morning. Not ages, not milleniums, not long periods of time. Evening and morning - literal 24h-days.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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Hi all,

Well, as I understand the Scriptures, what most of us miss is the purpose for there being this realm in which we live. We live in a created realm of existence. This realm of existence was created, by the one who created it, for a purpose. I fear that too many 'christians' don't understand what that means at its very foundation. They speak of a billions+ year old universe. But if we understand the purpose for which the one who created this realm of existence did it, they the question would have to be asked...Why? Why would this creator create something that was going to sit around for billions of years without the very entity for which it was created for? Do we think that for billions of years God just looked out his picture window and clapped his hands like Eddie Murphy did in the Nutty Professor, "Oh look what I've done. Look at all those pretty stars and over there I see comets dancing across the universe. Oh goody, goody look at it!!!!" And then sometime billions of years later, "Oh, I'm bored with just looking at stars glowing 24-7. I think I'll make something else to kind of give it life. But out of all the gazillion heavenly bodies, I'm only going to do it on this one little tiny piece over there."

I contend that God, from the moment He stepped into the black inky space of this realm before his handiwork, and declared, "Let there be light!", that He knew from those first words that He was making a place for the creature that He knew was to be made in His image. So, what's the purpose of the universe being billions and billions of years old? This fits with the account that He has given us that the earth was created first and was being constructed as a place for man. Then all the heavenly bodies were created because their purpose for existing was for man. For man to tell seasons and times and to understand the glory, power and majesty of the God who created them.

So, I fully understand that 'science' tells us this is not the case. I get it! I just don't believe it! I believe God. I believe that He is a God of purpose and that everything that He does is for a purpose.

God bless,
Ted

Ted,


Thank you for your kind reply. I also believe God foremost above all, but when there is no conflict between what God says and what science says, I also believe science. I do not believe, however, groundless speculations about God and why He does what He does.


Isaiah 55:8. For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
nor are your ways my ways, says the Lord.
9. For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts. (NRSV)

As for the age of the earth, the age of the earth has been measured by radiometric dating techniques and found to be 4.54 billion (4.54 × 109 years ± 1%) years old. For an excellent article written from an Christian perspective, please see the following: http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~legneref/archeol/radiometric Dating.htm
 
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PrincetonGuy

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Hi @PrincetonGuy,

I'm not sure that I follow how translating a word as either 'dome' or 'expanse' has any bearing on understanding the creation event. Just as with many English words, they can be translated into maybe 2 or 3 different words. The translator, who likely knows both the language he is translating and the language he is translating to, much better than you or I, makes a choice as to which one of the few words that could be applied, generally based on context and other indicators of the language being translated, would apply. In this case, most translators have chosen 'expanse' over 'dome'. But, if you prefer 'dome', that's fine, but what difference does it make to the overall account of the event and the veracity or understanding, thereof?

God bless,
Ted

In recent years, many translators have chosen to use the word expanse.” Even the Jewish Bible scholar E.A. Speiser, in his commentary on the Hebrew text of Genesis, uses the word “expanse,” but why? Speiser graciously gives us the following explanation in a note on Genesis1:6,

6. expanse. Traditionally “firmament,” one of the Bibles indirect contributions to Western lexicons. It goes back to the Vulg. Firmamentum “something made solid,” which in turn is based on the LXX rendering of Heb. râqı̂ya‛ “beaten out, stamped” (as of metal) suggesting a thin sheet stretched out to form the vault of the sky.​

Other Biblical scholars have explained that that when a piece of metal is beaten out, it expands into a thin sheet of metal that can then be formed into a bowl or a dome.

Its bearing on understanding the creation event is that it proves that the creation story in Genesis is not a factual account of God’s act of creation. Very extensive research has demonstrated that the belief in ancient Mesopotamian cultures was that the earth was flat and covered with a dome—and this cultural belief is reflected in Genesis and other parts of the Old Testament. Indeed, it is also reflected in the New Testament in the Gospel According to Matthew,

4:8. Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor; (NRSV)

Young earth creationist organization are acutely aware of these facts and make every effort to bury the truth in false and deliberately misleading claims that have absolutely no merit.

Our Lord God is not a puppet on strings being pulled by men to their own advantage; our Lord God is the creator and Lord of the universe—including the rules for the inspiration of the Scriptures.
 
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miamited

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@PrincetonGuy

Its bearing on understanding the creation event is that it proves that the creation story in Genesis is not a factual account of God’s act of creation.

Well personally, I don't see how you figure that the various translations of the Hebrew has any bearing on the veracity of the creation account, but, whatever seems right to you, you'll have to stick with. As I said in my initial response to you, I don't see a lot of difference between 'dome' and 'expanse' when we're referring to how the sky surrounding the earth is.

God bless,
Ted
 
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The New Revised Standard Version has become the Bible of choice among both religious and secular scholars when quoting from the Bible because it is both extremely accurate and easy to understand.
You've got to be kidding me!?

John 3:16a [KJB] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,

John 3:16a [NRSV] For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son,


And can you answer this:

What is Satan's angelic name?
 
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You've got to be kidding me!?

John 3:16a [KJB] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,

John 3:16a [NRSV] For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son,


And can you answer this:

What is Satan's angelic name?

John 3:16. Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλὰ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.

The word μονογενῆ is used to express several different concepts in Greek literature—and the reader or translator needs to be careful in interpreting the word. The translation of it in John 3:16 in the KJV as “only begotten” has given rise to the very false and dangerous doctrine that Jesus was not coexistent with the Father from the beginning, but was begotten later. Therefore, academically solid translations of the Bible omit the word “begotten”, including the RSV, NRSV, NAB, and the ESV. Furthermore, the translation “only” is both linguistically and theologically correct.
 
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Job 33:6

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Hi all,

Well, as I understand the Scriptures, what most of us miss is the purpose for there being this realm in which we live. We live in a created realm of existence. This realm of existence was created, by the one who created it, for a purpose. I fear that too many 'christians' don't understand what that means at its very foundation. They speak of a billions+ year old universe. But if we understand the purpose for which the one who created this realm of existence did it, they the question would have to be asked...Why? Why would this creator create something that was going to sit around for billions of years without the very entity for which it was created for? Do we think that for billions of years God just looked out his picture window and clapped his hands like Eddie Murphy did in the Nutty Professor, "Oh look what I've done. Look at all those pretty stars and over there I see comets dancing across the universe. Oh goody, goody look at it!!!!" And then sometime billions of years later, "Oh, I'm bored with just looking at stars glowing 24-7. I think I'll make something else to kind of give it life. But out of all the gazillion heavenly bodies, I'm only going to do it on this one little tiny piece over there."

I contend that God, from the moment He stepped into the black inky space of this realm before his handiwork, and declared, "Let there be light!", that He knew from those first words that He was making a place for the creature that He knew was to be made in His image. So, what's the purpose of the universe being billions and billions of years old? This fits with the account that He has given us that the earth was created first and was being constructed as a place for man. Then all the heavenly bodies were created because their purpose for existing was for man. For man to tell seasons and times and to understand the glory, power and majesty of the God who created them.

So, I fully understand that 'science' tells us this is not the case. I get it! I just don't believe it! I believe God. I believe that He is a God of purpose and that everything that He does is for a purpose.

God bless,
Ted

Out of curiosity, by this logic, why would God spend a whole 6 days creating rather than just instantaneously making everything? Was he like the nutty professor, sitting around for 23 hours and 59 minutes each day clapping his hands enjoying what had been created?
 
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Out of curiosity, by this logic, why would God spend a whole 6 days creating rather than just instantaneously making everything? Was he like the nutty professor, sitting around for 23 hours and 59 minutes each day clapping his hands enjoying what had been created?

@Isaiah 41:10

Certainly He could have, but His own testimony is that He took six days to do it in. I'm just believing God's testimony. It's one of the questions we can put to Him when we are there.

God bless,
Ted
 
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Out of curiosity, by this logic, why would God spend a whole 6 days creating rather than just instantaneously making everything?
He took six days on purpose, so as to give us a template of the workweek, as stipulated in one of the Ten Commandments.

Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
 
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Job 33:6

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@Isaiah 41:10

Certainly He could have, but His own testimony is that He took six days to do it in. I'm just believing God's testimony. It's one of the questions we can put to Him when we are there.

God bless,
Ted

So your argument against a non-literal reading boils down to "I'm just believing God's testimony.".

Ok.Good one. As if old earth Creationists wouldn't simply say the same thing.
 
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