How to walk in the Spirit.

Sidon · Jun 18, 2021

fhansen said:
I'd like to follow up later but the law still serves as a reminder that we're not living by the Spirit, when we fail.

The born again are "One with God, in Christ".
Do you think you can "draw nearer" then to be in God's Spirit?

So, the "DOING" that you are talking about is discipleship.
That is different then Salvation.

Also,

Your conscience is your law., once you are born again.
The Law (Moses Law) is for the unbelievers who are 'under the law".
The born again are :" Christ has redeemed us from the Curse of the Law".
The born again are "under Grace", not under Law.

Both the Law and the sin of the believer was dealt with by God on the Cross.
We dont take that back, (our sin and the law) to then try to please God, as that would be spiritual insanity.

Imagine trying to confess sin that Jesus has died to deal with, while you try to live under the law that Christ abolished on the Cross.
Many play this spiritual game with themselves.

So, if you are back under it, if you are trying to keep it, so that by this performance you think you are pleasing God, you are "fallen from Grace", and are deceived. Paul says of this person..>"who has bewitched you, that you do not obey the truth".
There is your law and commandment keeper who is trying to keep themselves saved.

Only use the commandments as your moral boundary.
Use the 1st 2, as your service to God.
Leave the Law in the Old Covenant being that God has replaced the law with the New Covenant and New Testament. (Blood of Jesus).

Sidon · Jun 18, 2021

MMXX said:
Obviously not everyone interprets Paul the way you do, which is why this thread has over 1000 posts and is 54 pages long.

However I think you know what I mean. It's always been a sticking point for me regarding what you're teaching. It bothered me when I first heard it from Hank Lindstrom. That unless one has a very exact understanding of how salvation works, they're not really saved.

I've never heard a Hank Lindstrom sermon, or teaching.

Now, if Hank is teaching that you have to here the CORRECT Gospel, and believe that, then that is different.
There are many gospels, but only one you can believe that causes God to save you.

so you have to hear that one and believe it.

I spend a lot of time in this world helping people adjust their faith into the correct understanding of the "Blood Atonement", and the "Gift of Salvation", and the "Gift of Righteousness".
Sure.
I do it everywhere i go.

Look.
God is looking for FAITH, in THE Gospel, and the Gospel is Jesus as Savior.
He's THE Gospel that we preach.

Christ died for sinners.
ALL.

The "preaching of the Cross'... Thats JESUS saving the world.....offering this John 3:16........ is the only theology the unsaved need to HEAR, as "faith comes by hearing".

Ceallaigh · Jun 18, 2021

Sidon said:
I've never heard a Hank Lindstrom sermon, or teaching.

Now, if Hank is teaching that you have to here the CORRECT Gospel, and believe that, then that is different.
There are many gospels, but only one you can believe that causes God to save you.

so you have to hear that one and believe it.

Yep that's what he and all other Free Grace theology teachers I know of say. That this very exact version of the gospel causes God to save you. And if you don't have it exactly just right, that will cause God to send you to hell. That's the one aspect of it that bothers me.

Clare73 · Jun 18, 2021

fhansen said:
This just means that the law reveals us to be sinners. It can only serve to condemn since we can't live up to its demands as fallen beings, even though it accurately describes righteousness for man. It tells us that something's very much wrong with the human race.

But that's exactly what I've been saying, that the law is not the means to righteousness-and Paul isn't saying that either. He's only saying that until and unless we actually are righteous, we won't be righteous.

Again, he's only saying what John said,
"The one who does what is right is righteous, just as He is righteous." 1 John 3:6
And there's only one authentic way to achieve that,

We don't achieve that, the Lord by his Spirit achieves that.

known by Jesus, of course, and all New Testament authors:
"So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Gal 5:16-18

Rom 2 is simply telling us what it takes to be righteous, Jew and Gentile alike.

by telling us what is unrighteous. . .in the context of his argument showing all Jews to be unrighteous as all Gentiles are unrighteous (1:18-32), thereby making all mankind unrighteous (3:9-10), with the only righteousness coming from God by faith (1:17, 3:21), which is credited/imputed to those in Jesus Christ by faith (Romans 5:18-19).

Deal with Romans 3:9-10, Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21.

Before 2:13 he even says,
"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile." Rom 2:7-10

Better not dare throw it away there Clare-it's the wisdom of the gospel. God gives us authentic righteousness, and then expects us to walk in it:
“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.” Rom 8:12-13

You do not correctly understand the import of Romans 2:1-3:8, that by the law all Jews are under its curse (Galatians 3:10) for unrighteousness.

fhansen · Jun 18, 2021

Clare73 said:
We don't achieve that, the Lord by his Spirit achieves that.

Did I even hint otherwise? And yet it's a cooperative effort, because we must be willing.
I'm going to wear passage out:
“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.” Rom 8:12-13

fhansen · Jun 18, 2021

Sidon said:
The born again are "One with God, in Christ".
Do you think you can "draw nearer" then to be in God's Spirit?

Yes, we can always draw nearer to God. We'd have to be dishonest with ourselves to think we're as close as we can be now-even you. And this is the problem with those who constantly speak of being born again and OSAS: ignorance, of the gospel and of God in much fullness of knowledge. Or the question would never even come up as to whether or not we can draw nearer.

Ceallaigh · Jun 18, 2021

fhansen said:
Did I even hint otherwise? And yet it's a cooperative effort, because we must be willing.
I'm going to wear passage out:
“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.” Rom 8:12-13

Romans 8:12 seems to have varying interpretations:

Holman Christian Standard Bible
So then, brothers, we are not obligated to the flesh to live according to the flesh,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Now my brethren, we are indebted, not to the flesh that we should walk in the flesh,

Contemporary English Version
My dear friends, we must not live to satisfy our desires.

International Standard Version
Consequently, brothers, we are not—with respect to human nature, that is—under an obligation to live according to human nature.

New Heart English Bible
So then, brothers, we have no obligation to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

fhansen · Jun 18, 2021

Clare73 said:
by telling us what is unrighteous. . .in the context of his argument showing all Jews to be unrighteous as all Gentiles are unrighteous (1:18-32), thereby making all mankind unrighteous (3:9-10), with the only righteousness coming from God by faith (1:17, 3:21), which is credited/imputed to those in Jesus Christ by faith (Romans 5:18-19).

Exactly-except for the imputed part. God makes us just-in response to faith-then we must live and act in that justice/righteous-or we'll have no life.

fhansen · Jun 18, 2021

Clare73 said:
You do not correctly understand the import of Romans 2:1-3:8, that by the law all Jews are under its curse (Galatians 3:10) for unrighteousness.

Yes, it's a curse. The only way to fulfill it is by the Spirit=no curse. Against that there is no law. Remember that the law is good, it simply describes righteousness/holiness at the basic moral level. Are you saying God doesn't want us to be holy now? To put it another way, since love fulfills the law, are you saying God doesn't want us to love? Remember that Rom 2:13 speaks of not even needing to hear the law, while obeying it nonetheless. No curse is involved in that case, because no one would be "under the law".

fhansen · Jun 18, 2021

MMXX said:
Romans 8:12 seems to have varying interpretations:

Holman Christian Standard Bible
So then, brothers, we are not obligated to the flesh to live according to the flesh,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Now my brethren, we are indebted, not to the flesh that we should walk in the flesh,

Contemporary English Version
My dear friends, we must not live to satisfy our desires.

International Standard Version
Consequently, brothers, we are not—with respect to human nature, that is—under an obligation to live according to human nature.

New Heart English Bible
So then, brothers, we have no obligation to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

Boy, you'd have to hunt for those. I have to keep in mind that some believers desire no obligation to be righteous-and will do what it takes to skirt that obligation. Anyway, quite the gospel there- when we use faith as an excuse from being righteous. Bet satan's happy anyway.

BTW, how do they handle vs 13?
"For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.” (NIV)

Ligurian · Jun 18, 2021

Guojing said:
We will know that the gospel of the kingdom is no longer the gospel that saves today, so how can you choose to follow that?

I believe that keeping the Father's words of eternal life will save me.

Deuteronomy 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee(Moses), and will put My words in His mouth; and He shall speak unto them all that I shall command Him. 19 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever will not hearken unto My words which He shall speak in My name, I will require [it] of him.

John 12:44-50 And I know that His commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak.

John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life."

John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any pluck them out of My hand.

Revelation 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith He that is holy, He that is true, He that hath the key of David, He that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Matthew 24:14 And this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. ... 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God.

Matthew 13:10-11 He answered and said unto them, "Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven, but to them it is not given."

Ceallaigh · Jun 18, 2021

fhansen said:
Boy, you'd have to hunt for those. I have to keep in mind that some believers desire no obligation to be righteous-and will do what it takes to skirt that obligation. Anyway, quite the gospel there- when we use faith as an excuse from being righteous. Bet satan's happy anyway.

BTW, how do they handle vs 13?
"For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.” (NIV)

No hunting involved. They're all off biblehub. The same can be done using biblegateway. You should be willing to fully explore your proof texts to see if they really say what you want them to say. Compare different translations and look at the lexicon etc. Especially if you're focusing on a keyword.

How do they handle verse 13? Take a look for yourself. Those look far more consistent, so perhaps there's no satanic plot involved after all.

Clare73 · Jun 18, 2021

fhansen said:
Rom 2 is simply telling us what it takes to be righteous, Jew and Gentile alike.

Clare73 said:
by telling us what is unrighteous. . .in the context of his argument showing all Jews to be unrighteous as all Gentiles are unrighteous (1:18-32), thereby making all mankind unrighteous (3:9-10), with the only righteousness coming from God by faith (1:17, 3:21), which is credited/imputed to those in Jesus Christ by faith (Romans 5:18-19).

fhansen said:
Exactly--except for

Clare73 said:
So we are agreed that Romans 2:1-3:8 is a demonstration of the unrighteousnes of all Jews, as Romans 1:18-32 was a demonstration of the unrighteousness of all Gentiles, thereby locking up all mankind in unrighteousness (Romans 3:9, Romans 11:32), leaving all righteousness from God only, imputed to us (Romans 5:18-19) through faith (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21)

fhansen said:
-except for the imputed part. God makes us just-in response to faith

However, Paul clearly teaches this imputation of righteousness through faith, using Abraham as proof, where Abraham's faith was credited/reckoned/imputed to him as righteousness (Romans 4:3).

That is the righteousness of justification apart from works (Romans 4:5; Romans 3:21,
Romans 3:28).

-then we must live and act in that justice/righteous-or we'll have no life.

Which is the process of sanctification through obedience in the Holy Spirit.

Looks like we could be in agreement on
the unrighteousness/condemnation of all mankind,
righteousness only from God
imputed/credited/reckoned to us through faith (Romans 4:3)

Are you Irish Catholic?

Clare73 · Jun 18, 2021

fhansen said:
Yes, it's a curse. The only way to fulfill it is by the Spirit=no curse. Against that there is no law. Remember that the law is good, it simply describes righteousness/holiness at the basic moral level. Are you saying God doesn't want us to be holy now? To put it another way, since love fulfills the law,

I am saying that fulfulling the law and being holy does not save.

Only faith in the person and work (blood--Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right standing (position) with Gods justice; i.e., not guilty--righteous, sanctified, holy--saves.

The rest is sanctification, proof of the salvation we already have through faith without works (Ephesians 2:8-9), such that: no sanctification gives evidence (not proof) of never having salvation in the first place.

Guojing · Jun 18, 2021

Ligurian said:
I believe that keeping the Father's words of eternal life will save me.

Deuteronomy 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee(Moses), and will put My words in His mouth; and He shall speak unto them all that I shall command Him. 19 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever will not hearken unto My words which He shall speak in My name, I will require [it] of him.

John 12:44-50 And I know that His commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak.

John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life."

John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any pluck them out of My hand.

Revelation 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith He that is holy, He that is true, He that hath the key of David, He that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Matthew 24:14 And this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. ... 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God.

Matthew 13:10-11 He answered and said unto them, "Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven, but to them it is not given."

Just to clarify, do you believe that Christ has died for your sins and rose again on the 3rd day for your justification? (1 Cor 15:1-4)?

Ligurian · Jun 18, 2021

Guojing said:
Just to clarify, do you believe that Christ has died for your sins
and rose again on the 3rd day
for your justification? (1 Cor 15:1-4)?

Paul is the Apostle to the Gentiles, he wrote that gospel you're quoting.
Two similarities exist between the two gospels...

[check]
Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt
call his name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sins.

[check]
John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace unto you. 20 And when He had so said, He shewed unto them [his] hands and His side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.

Justified is the same word in Greek as Righteous.

Matthew 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

Galatians 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we [should go] unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Petertr.byMark 6:20 For Herod feared John, knowing that he was a just man and an holy, and observed him; and when he heard him, he did many things, and heard him gladly.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Confess your sin to the one you've injured:

Matthew 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

Matthew 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. ... 14 Blessed [are] they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Guojing · Jun 18, 2021

Ligurian said:
Paul is the Apostle to the Gentiles, he wrote that gospel you're quoting.
Two similarities exist between the two gospels...

[check]
Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt
call his name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sins.

[check]
John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace unto you. 20 And when He had so said, He shewed unto them [his] hands and His side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.

Justified is the same word in Greek as Righteous.

Matthew 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

Galatians 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we [should go] unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Petertr.byMark 6:20 For Herod feared John, knowing that he was a just man and an holy, and observed him; and when he heard him, he did many things, and heard him gladly.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Confess your sin to the one you've injured:

Matthew 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

Matthew 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. ... 14 Blessed [are] they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

So is your answer an unequivocal yes?

fhansen · Jun 18, 2021

MMXX said:
No hunting involved. They're all off biblehub. The same can be done using biblegateway. You should be willing to fully explore your proof texts to see if they really say what you want them to say. Compare different translations and look at the lexicon etc. Especially if you're focusing on a keyword.

How do they handle verse 13? Take a look for yourself. Those look far more consistent, so perhaps there's no satanic plot involved after all.

No need for a satanic plot-humans take care of his purposes just fine. The problem is that when we've made mans' obligation to be righteous fulfilled by a merely declared or perceived righteousness we've just confused, obfuscated, and otherwise done violence to the gospel as it's been preached from day one for the last two millennia. And then when we pit scripture translations against scripture translations all we do is further prove the uselessness of the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. Yes, it admittedly all upsets me.

Ceallaigh · Jun 18, 2021

fhansen said:
No need for a satanic plot-humans take care of his purposes just fine. The problem is that when we've made mans' obligation to be righteous fulfilled by a merely declared or perceived righteousness we've just confused, obfuscated, and otherwise done violence to the gospel as it's been preached from day one for the last two millennia. And then when we pit scripture translations against scripture translations all we do is further prove the uselessness of the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. Yes, it admittedly all upsets me.

Why are you even quoting Romans 8:12 then, if you see such a problem with how it's worded in multiple English translations?

Even the English versions used by Catholics say:

NABRE
Consequently, brothers, we are not debtors to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.

NLT
Therefore, dear brothers and sisters, you have no obligation to do what your sinful nature urges you to do.

ESV
So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.

NCB
Consequently, brethren, we are not debtors to the flesh and obliged to live according to the flesh.

Source: Romans 8:12 - Bible Gateway

fhansen said:
we've just confused, obfuscated, and otherwise done violence to the gospel as it's been preached from day one for the last two millennia.

That part of your statement could be seen as regarding doctrine/tradition vs what scripture is actually saying.

fhansen · Jun 19, 2021

MMXX said:
Why are you even quoting Romans 8:12 then, if you see such a problem with how it's worded in multiple English translations?

It's simple enough-because even the quotes you gave pretty well end up with the same meaning, especially when vs 13 finishes out the thought. And it's not the only passage relevant to the matter anyway. What bothers me most, however, is simply the ignorance of the gospel so prevalent these days that might cause someone like yourself to question whether or not salvation takes place as some one-time event that renders a person saved forever or whether or not human choices and actions after justification are still involved, whether or not we're obligated to be personally righteous IOW, with eternal life at stake.

The ancient churches have known and taught that we are so obligated and have this understanding, as an inheritance, with and also apart from the bible-before the NT was written for that matter. It's also in the teachings and the sacraments and the conciliar decrees and ECF writings, and is the reason that most of the very doctrines that Sola Scriptura adherents may argue over between each other, as this thread, itself, testifies to, were settled from day one within the original church, or settled at council if controversies arose. Now with the Reformation and Sola Scriptura, we have the cafeteria plan of Christianity, with a whole potpourri of faith options.

How to walk in the Spirit.

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