The Beatific Vision

In past discussions long ago on other boards, I think this has been resolved in various ways. Like not literally seeing the Father in his full glory. But seeing some kind of manifestation of the Son, like the preincarnate son. Or perhaps seeing God in his glory, but one that is veiled like Moses etc.

Andrewn said:

Is it possible to see the Face of the Father?

Mat 18:10 “See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I tell you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father in heaven.

1Co 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly,
but then face to face.
Now I know in part,
but then I will know fully,
even as I have been fully known.

How do you explain this given that no one can see the Face of the Father: Exo 33:20; Joh 1:18; Joh 5:37; Joh 6:46; 1Ti 6:16; 1Jo 4:12?

And the Lord Jesus implied that He is the Face of the Father:

Joh 14:8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Does Mat 18:18 mean that angels see Christ, God the Son, in heaven?

I think there is disagreement between RC and EO where the former believe that angels and saints in paradise see the Face of the Father and the latter believe they see Jesus. Am I correct?

How do you interpret Mat 18:10 and 1Co 13:12?

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The Father has no face God is spirit. We can see Jesus because He has a human body and He suppressed His glory. Paul is saying we will know God more fully.

Andrewn said:

Is it possible to see the Face of the Father?

Mat 18:10 “See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I tell you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father in heaven.

1Co 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly,
but then face to face.
Now I know in part,
but then I will know fully,
even as I have been fully known.

How do you explain this given that no one can see the Face of the Father: Exo 33:20; Joh 1:18; Joh 5:37; Joh 6:46; 1Ti 6:16; 1Jo 4:12?

And the Lord Jesus implied that He is the Face of the Father:

Joh 14:8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Does Mat 18:18 mean that angels see Christ, God the Son, in heaven?

I think there is disagreement between RC and EO where the former believe that angels and saints in paradise see the Face of the Father and the latter believe they see Jesus. Am I correct?

How do you interpret Mat 18:10 and 1Co 13:12?

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The Eastern Orthodox believe in Theosis, which strikes me as a more compelling reward.

Andrewn said:

I think there is disagreement between RC and EO where the former believe that angels and saints in paradise see the Face of the Father and the latter believe they see Jesus. Am I correct?

Click to expand...

That might be. I know one issue is whether or not we see the essence of God. I think there is this kind of static view that sees the beatific vision as a perception of the divine essence and an entrance into perfection (as is possible). I think that is a very common view. There is also a more dynamic approach (e.g. Gregory of Nyssa) that argues because God is infinite, we are not able to perceive the divine essence. However, we will be able to perceive God in such a way that were are simultaneously and perpetually desiring God and being satisfied by God. In other words, it just keeps getting better.

I think all of us will see Him face to face at some time. For some it may be once only - at their judgement. Although I might modify that as think we will also see Him at the Last Judgement.

For those who get to heaven and the beatific vision, I think they will continually behold Him, not some sort of eternal mystery hidden in the clouds.

The business about nobody can see My face and live applies to this life only, while we're still in a physical body. But when we die, and we only have an immortal spiritual body, it will be a different matter.

I've often said that on the night my father died he appeared in my room. He materialised near the door and advanced to the foot of the bed. Most of the time he was looking over my head at something behind me. When I turned around to see what he was looking at, I just saw the wall. I wasn't allowed to see what he could see, probably because it would have killed me, and it wasn't yet my time to die obviously.

He had two main expressions - one was a look of absolute awe. When that happened I think He could see the heavenly court in all its glory.

But there was the converse - there were times when he tried to hide his face behind his hands, and he had a look of appalling shame, as though he could not bear to see whatever it was. I think at those times he was being shown some of his actions and words in the light of the divine glory. And it made him cringe to the core. He couldn't stand it.

At the end (after our exchange) he started to turn to his right, my left, and it was obvious something was coming for him. It would also have been to the left of whatever party he had been looking at with such mixed expressions.

Matthew 25 - "He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left" and "“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels".

Whatever he saw coming for him at the end which caused him to scream his head off just before he disappeared into eternity was coming from my left, and since I presume whoever my father was initially looking at was directly "behind me" (in human terms), it would also have been on His or their left as well.

So I think we'll all see God, once at least, and probably again at the Last Judgement, when according to the Catholic Catechism -

1039 In the presence of Christ, who is Truth itself, the truth of each man's relationship with God will be laid bare. The Last Judgment will reveal even to its furthest consequences the good each person has done or failed to do during his earthly life:

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As far as I'm concerned it was his "particular judgement" which is the one which takes place immediately after death. I personally believe there's a brief hiatus after death where we're allowed to see (some) relatives and friends who died before us, but then they disappear and we front up to to the divine throne, for what I think will be a fairly tough judgement.

The Catholic Church believes the "particular" (or personal) judgement takes place immediately after death. If' I'd had the presence of mind to look at a clock or watch when he turned up in my room, I think I could have given the coroner a very accurate time of death. But I was too startled at this somewhat unexpected event to even think of it. For a start I didn't know he'd died, even though at one point in the proceedings I'd blurted out "What is this?? A dream or something??"

He looked a bit bemused and replied "No, it's not a dream. I died tonight."

I tried to forget about it, but then one of my uncles turned up four days later to tell me he'd died. It was a mess he said as his body hadn't been found for four days. After a couple of minutes the penny dropped, and I still remember turning towards the bedroom, counting back four nights and thinking "Then what the hell was that the other night??"

My uncle obviously saw the expression on my face as he asked "Are you all right?" I replied I was and gathered my wits.

But anyway as far as "turning left" goes, it seems to me it fits the bill of Christ's terminology ie. the goats go to His "left" and the sheep to His "right". I distinctly remember my father turned to my left and his right as he was facing me, just before he gave his final terrifying scream and disappeared.

The "Last Judgement" won't take place until this universe comes to an end and Christ returns "with great power and glory". And Everybody will be there!

Andrewn said:

Is it possible to see the Face of the Father?

Mat 18:10 “See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I tell you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father in heaven.

1Co 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly,
but then face to face.
Now I know in part,
but then I will know fully,
even as I have been fully known.

How do you explain this given that no one can see the Face of the Father: Exo 33:20; Joh 1:18; Joh 5:37; Joh 6:46; 1Ti 6:16; 1Jo 4:12?

And the Lord Jesus implied that He is the Face of the Father:

Joh 14:8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Does Mat 18:18 mean that angels see Christ, God the Son, in heaven?

I think there is disagreement between RC and EO where the former believe that angels and saints in paradise see the Face of the Father and the latter believe they see Jesus. Am I correct?

How do you interpret Mat 18:10 and 1Co 13:12?

Click to expand...

Jesus reveals the true face of God; to "see His face" is to know Him.
"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3

This knowledge is to begin here on earth and is fully realized only in the next life.
"For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." 1 Cor 13:12

Having this knowledge is the purpose of our very existence. While man wasn't ready for it in earlier times, God's was preparing us for it down through the centuries -until the time was ripe for Jesus' advent.

public hermit said:

That might be. I know one issue is whether or not we see the essence of God. I think there is this kind of static view that sees the beatific vision as a perception of the divine essence and an entrance into perfection (as is possible). I think that is a very common view. There is also a more dynamic approach (e.g. Gregory of Nyssa) that argues because God is infinite, we are not able to perceive the divine essence. However, we will be able to perceive God in such a way that were are simultaneously and perpetually desiring God and being satisfied by God. In other words, it just keeps getting better.

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For its part the Catholic Church teaches that we cannot comprehend the essence of God, in it's totality IOW- that's completely beyond a created beings capabilities; we'd have to be God to be capable of that. But, by grace, transcending our natural powers of cognition, He causes us to know Him "immediately", to receive and perceive or "see" His essence intuitively. And this, then, also causes instant exaltation in man.

fhansen said:

For its part the Catholic Church teaches that we cannot comprehend the essence of God, in it's totality IOW- that's completely beyond a created beings capabilities; we'd have to be God to be capable of that. But, by grace, transcending our natural powers of cognition, He causes us to know Him "immediately", to receive and perceive or "see" His essence intuitively. And this, then, also causes instant exaltation in man.

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Sure, it makes sense we couldn't comprehend the divine essence in totality, at least to me. But, for the sake of argument, if God's essence is simple (not-compound) then a perception of the divine essence would be complete, no? It's not like one would perceive part of that which has no parts.

Aquinas argues the beatific vision is an attainment of the divine essence, not just an intuition. The basic argument seems to be: if God is the telos of human happiness, then a perception of anything other than the divine essence would not be a perception of God. Is that not the Catholic Church's position?

Gazing the Essence of God: Thomas Aquinas and the Beatific Vision

public hermit said:

Sure, it makes sense we couldn't comprehend the divine essence in totality, at least to me. But, for the sake of argument, if God's essence is simple (not-compound) then a perception of the divine essence would be complete, no? It's not like one would perceive part of that which has no parts.

Aquinas argues the beatific vision is an attainment of the divine essence, not just an intuition. The basic argument seems to be: if God is the telos of human happiness, then a perception of anything other than the divine essence would not be a perception of God. Is that not the Catholic Church's position?

Gazing the Essence of God: Thomas Aquinas and the Beatific Vision

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But we still never comprehend His essence-to fully know it in all aspects. To know it intuitively is to perceive it directly, rather than abstractly at best which much of our knowledge of Him here consists of. It's to see that which a created being can see-albeit still necessarily with grace- and needs to see according to God's wisdom in order to attain that purpose and perfect happiness. It's to be in His "Immediate Presence", as its called. And that proximity is more than enough. That doesn't mean that I would need or be able to describe and explain everything that God is as if I could fully understand Him and there was nothing more that could be comprehended. But I'd still know Him.

No.. from Moses to right now He has not changed ". But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.” We read here God does have a face Christ is the only way we here on EARTH can see Him. After all this when we are changed as Christ is.. then we will see Him. I believe

People like Ian McCormack say they have seen the glory of God in the face of Christ, brighter than ten thousand suns, yet not painful to look at. We cannot like Moses in the body see God's face and live. The body is too weak. I am sure being in the Father's presence with the power of the blood of Jesus and the resurrection... will be part of glorification.

Andrewn said:

Doesn't the Last Judgment take place after resurrection of the body?

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Yes, indeed, at the Last Trumpet. The Patristic view is that before our Resurrection, we have a foretaste of what we might experience after the Last Judgement. The early church also developed the very pious practice of prayer for the dead as an appeal to the infinite lovingkindness of our Lord, and also by way of requesting intercession by the saints, such as the Blessed Virgin Mary, this is also believed to be of great benefit to the deceased.

fhansen said:

But we still never comprehend His essence-to fully know it in all aspects. To know it intuitively is to perceive it directly, rather than abstractly at best which much of our knowledge of Him here consists of. It's to see that which a created being can see-albeit still necessarily with grace- and needs to see according to God's wisdom in order to attain that purpose and perfect happiness. It's to be in His "Immediate Presence", as its called. And that proximity is more than enough. That doesn't mean that I would need or be able to describe and explain everything that God is as if I could fully understand Him and there was nothing more that could be comprehended. But I'd still know Him.

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This is a good and interesting answer, and it strikes me as being much closer to the Eastern Orthodox concepts of Theosis and the eschaton than some Roman Catholic conceptualizations of the Beatific Vision, for instance, the celebrated poetic description of it in Dante’s Paradiso.

The Liturgist said:

This is a good and interesting answer, and it strikes me as being much closer to the Eastern Orthodox concepts of Theosis and the eschaton than some Roman Catholic conceptualizations of the Beatific Vision, for instance, the celebrated poetic description of it in Dante’s Paradiso.

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Thank you. Theosis, called deification or divinization in the west, is as old as the faith but more emphazised in eastern teachings, I believe, for one reason or another-depending on era perhaps. But all the concepts I mentioned regarding man's abilty to see/know God are western in any case, and can be found in the Summa, for instance.