Calvinism and its Secret Universalism

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Hammster

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Acts 8:13
You don't believe God? His word said he believed and was baptized.

You are proving me correct that calvinist's cannot know if they are of the elect and cannot know if they are saved.
Same questions still apply.
 
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Hammster

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Your not quoting Jesus correctly. He didn’t say pruning produces more fruit He said “He prunes it so that it may (can potentially) bear more fruit”. He didn’t say it will bear more fruit. So far you’ve struck out on every angle you’ve tried but keep trying. I believe it was Thomas Edison who said “I didn’t fail, I just found 2,000 ways not to make a light bulb”.
What Greek word is translated “may”? I’d like to look it up.
 
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zoidar

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Where did you find that? I can’t find the Greek word myself.

That's the word here translated "may bear". Can't tell if it's the right translation. Maybe it should be just "bear" ? I wish I knew Greek.

I use the app: "Hebrew/Greek interlinear Bible"
 
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Hammster

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That's the word here translated "may bear". Can't tell if it's the right translation. Maybe it should be just "bear" ? I wish I knew Greek.

I use the app: "Hebrew/Greek interlinear Bible"
I’m showing that “forth” is phero, not “May”.
 
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Titus Dorn

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Christians are the subjects here in Hebrews 10:19;26-32

Having therefore BRETHREN, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,


For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

But a certain FEARFUL LOOKING FOR OF JUDGEMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION, which shall devour the adversaries.

V29
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God and hath counted the blood of the covenant, WHEREWITH HE WAS SANCTIFIED, an unholy thing and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

V30
For we know him that hath said, Vengeagance belongeth to Me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, the Lord shall judge His people.

V32
But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye WERE ILLUMINATED, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;

This is a warning to christians not to sin willfully after we have been saved by the blood of the new covenant ie the will and new testament of Jesus Christ.

There is no clearer passage that shows Christians can loose their salvation.

Verse 29 proves these are of the "elect" by the stated fact that these Christians are SANCTIFIED ! ! !

Notice the same passage in the New King James,

V29
Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he WAS SANCTIFIED a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

One can deny that these christians are not sanctified and saved by God Himself.

For anyone who claims they were not sanctified is simply wrong. Let the Word of God speak for itself.

The sanctified Christian will suffer Gods vengeance IF he does not repent and turn back to God,

V26
For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.

1John 1:9
IF we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 
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BNR32FAN

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That's the word here translated "may bear". Can't tell if it's the right translation. Maybe it should be just "bear" ? I wish I knew Greek.

I use the app: "Hebrew/Greek interlinear Bible"

I really don’t see why this is even relevant since Jesus just said that the apostles were pruned and yet He still just two sentences later that they are capable of falling away. If they are capable of falling away then they are capable of ceasing to bear fruit according to verses 4 & 5. So this whole line of questioning is really bizarre.

“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:4-5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
 
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zoidar

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I really don’t see why this is even relevant since Jesus just said that the apostles were pruned and yet He still just two sentences later that they are capable of falling away. If they are capable of falling away then they are capable of ceasing to bear fruit according to verses 4 & 5. So this whole line of questioning is really bizarre.

“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:4-5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Well, maybe better address Hammster, since I agree with you that we can fall away.
 
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Hammster

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Christians are the subjects here in Hebrews 10:19;26-32

Having therefore BRETHREN, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,


For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

But a certain FEARFUL LOOKING FOR OF JUDGEMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION, which shall devour the adversaries.

V29
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God and hath counted the blood of the covenant, WHEREWITH HE WAS SANCTIFIED, an unholy thing and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

V30
For we know him that hath said, Vengeagance belongeth to Me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, the Lord shall judge His people.

V32
But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye WERE ILLUMINATED, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;

This is a warning to christians not to sin willfully after we have been saved by the blood of the new covenant ie the will and new testament of Jesus Christ.

There is no clearer passage that shows Christians can loose their salvation.

Verse 29 proves these are of the "elect" by the stated fact that these Christians are SANCTIFIED ! ! !

Notice the same passage in the New King James,

V29
Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he WAS SANCTIFIED a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

One can deny that these christians are not sanctified and saved by God Himself.

For anyone who claims they were not sanctified is simply wrong. Let the Word of God speak for itself.

The sanctified Christian will suffer Gods vengeance IF he does not repent and turn back to God,

V26
For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.

1John 1:9
IF we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
It’s a warning to Jews who reject Christ. They had been relying on the OT sacrificial system. The writer is warning them that if they reject the final sacrifice, there remains no other.
 
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Hammster

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I really don’t see why this is even relevant since Jesus just said that the apostles were pruned and yet He still just two sentences later that they are capable of falling away. If they are capable of falling away then they are capable of ceasing to bear fruit according to verses 4 & 5. So this whole line of questioning is really bizarre.

“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:4-5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
He’s telling them that their fruit is dependent on Him. That’s all.
 
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Titus Dorn

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It’s a warning to Jews who reject Christ. They had been relying on the OT sacrificial system. The writer is warning them that if they reject the final sacrifice, there remains no other.
The book of Hebrews is written to converted jews.

All throughout the book of Hebrews the writer is teaching the Jewish converts to Christ, Christian Jews, not to go back into law keeping of the old law of Moses.

That they have been made free in Christ. And if the go back into binding the law of Moses on Christians they go back under bondage.

The Hebrew writer is speaking to jewish christians in chapter 10.

They have already professed faith in Christ.

Hebrews 10:23
Let us hold fast the PROFESSION OF OUR FAITH without wavering; (for HE (JESUS) is faithful that promised.

Hebrews 3:6
But Christ is a Son over His own house; WHOSE HOUSE ARE WE, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the HOPE firm unto the end.

Knowing just a little Bible we know that the only hope that Paul says we have is only in Christ.

Those outside of Christ are without hope. Therefore these jews are coverted jews to Christ.

Paul would never of said they they have hope if they were not already in Christs house.

Hebrews 10:29
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the SON OF GOD, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he WAS SANCTIFIED, an unholy thing and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Of how much greater punishment suppose you shall be thought worthy who hath trodden under foot the Son of God,

Jesus is the Son of God. Now which covenant is being spoken of here? The covenant with Abraham or with Christ?

You already know the answer, the Son of God,

And hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified

This is Jesus new covenant that is spoken of in Hebrews

Hebrews 8:6-13
But NOW hath He obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also He is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

In that He saith, A new covenant He hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The intended Audience

These Jews had already heard the gospel from the immediate disciples of Christ,

Hebrews 2:3
How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard Him.

These jewish converts to Christ saw gifts of the Holy Spirit performed,

Verse 4
God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders and with divers miracles and gifts of the Holy
Ghost, according to His own will

They had been made partakers of Christ and needed only to hold fast the beginning of their confidence firm unto the end,

Hebrews 3:14
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.

These jewish converts to Christ had already engaged in Jesus' ministry to the saints,

Hebrews 6:10
For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labor of love; which YE have shewed toward His(Jesus) name, in that ye have ministered to the saints and do minister.

We may also ascertain that these jewish converts to Christ had been believers for some considerable time because their first generation of leaders had died,

Hebrews 13:7
Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.Jesus Christ the same yesterday and to day and for ever.

And they themselves should be teachers by this time,

Hebrews 5:12
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk and not of strong meat.

They had good understanding of the first principles of Christ,

Hebrews 6:1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

But they had become dull of hearimg,

Hebrews 5:11
Of whom we have many things to say and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing

And sluggish in their conduct

Hebrews 6:12
That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

The writer fears that some of them are in danger of apostasy

Hebrews 6:4-8
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and WERE MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST and have TASTED the good word of God and the Powers of the world to come. If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

The death of Christ is spoken of as "for the redemption of the transgressions which were under the first covenant" that is to atone for the sins of the Israelites.

Hebrews 9:15
And for this cause He is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might recieve the promise of eternal inheritance.

The new covenant in Jeremiah's prophecy is made with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, Hebrews 8:8

The exhortation to go forth to Jesus without the camp, Hebrews 13:13 can naturally mean nothing else than a complete break with Judaism.

All of this fits well with the view that the persons addressed are Jewish Christians.

Hebrews 13:12-14
Wherefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own blood, suffered without the gate.

Let us go forth therefore unto Him without the camp, bearing His reproach.

For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

Hebrews 13:22; 23; 24
And I beseech you, brethren, suffer the word of exhortation(gospel of Christ) for I have written a letter unto you in few words. Know ye our brother Timothy is set at liberty; with whom, if he come shortly, I will see you. Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints, They of Italy salute you. Grace be with you all. Amen.












 
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Hammster

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The book of Hebrews is written to converted jews.
It’s written to the Jewish community, some of who are saved, and some who are not.
 
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