Question: Where do you start, God's Word or God's heart?

topher694 · Jun 17, 2021

Sidon said:
Go here :

Starting or re-starting your Discipleship.

Not looking for guidance for myself, thanks. I'm looking to see how other people approach these difficult questions.

topher694 · Jun 17, 2021

eleos1954 said:
So do Christians ;o)

It's difficult to reconcile different points of view ... sometimes impossible. Depends on the point of view one is coming from in the first place.

Prayer .... my friend .... pray

Therein lies the difficulty doesn't it? Yet we all naturally try to answer these questions for ourselves anyway.

com7fy8 · Jun 17, 2021

topher694 said:
let's say the individual has been a Christian long enough to have a decent enough understanding of the Word so that they also have a decent enough understanding of His heart.

First I need to be with God so He is guiding how I understand and apply a scripture.

And trust Him to guide my attention, so I see if He has me give attention to an issue or not.

topher694 · Jun 17, 2021

Pavel Mosko said:
Kind of both. Some priority may be given to the Word since it is a bit more objective, But there is a certain amount of "Spirit of the Law" out rules the Letter of it.

1) For myself a lot of this has to do with things that are a kind of mystical theology.

One of the big things I'm concerned with are things known as "Economy of Religion".
Economy (religion) - Wikipedia

Which has to do with how God acts with humanity, when it comes to how he seems to act in general, the nature of the commandments and rituals and ordinances he institutes.

While this kind of the Providence of Classical Christianity, as far as Church Fathers etc. goes the first person who really got me into this was a WOF pastor who noticed that even though God is omnisciencent he seems to ask a lot of Questions of people, and composed a sermon reflecting on why he thought that was.

2) My Systematic Theology Class of 1996

On the Spirit of the Law I had a major water shed event taking the theology class. The basic notion of the spirit of the Law I learned as a Lutheran kid in Catechism, maybe even Sunday school. But the interesting point made in the theology class was the professor pointing out that there are some people that are so conservative when it comes to the issue of divorce and what Jesus says about it that they urge people to stay in abusive marriages! That kind of surprised me, as a person whose previous chosen career was mental health / counseling etc. I basically accepted that was a kind of deal breaker based on "common sense", intuition etc. and almost did not have it in mind that people could be so conservative in their stance on things that they might go to far with it.

Since that event, I had another thing that popped up where a friend, a Messianic rabbi (also in the Charismatic movement) had this wife that was abusive to him for 20 years, including spousal abuse like breaking some of his bones, and her fidelity was also in question, and she had a lot of symptoms where I think she probably would be diagnosed with Narcistic Personality Disorder. Anyway my friend suffered a lot of grief from his church folk, because he eventually had a kind of Word of Wisdom where God ordered him to finally divorce his wife after spending years trying to placate, negotiate etc. And this got a lot of flack from his church folk quoting the Bible at him etc. but it likewise was a kind of watershed event when it came to the basic meaning, theology etc. around marriage, especially the nature of covenant etc. It's one of those things where a person can be so focused on a specific tree that they can't see the forest.

3) I actually think their are a lot of cultural things in the back of our mind concerning what we assume about the Bible and how it should be used. I tried to do a thread on that, but it went over like a lead balloon.

Independent Contractors for Christ (limitations of utilitarian Ecclesiology)

#2 is exactly the type of thing I'm asking about here

Sidon · Jun 18, 2021

Minister Monardo said:
I am astounded by how often I see people argue justification by faith and not by works
of the Law, a teaching of Paul, and fail to see that this is rooted in his teaching on the
conscience, .

Justification by faith is not rooted in "conscience", its rooted in the Blood of Jesus.
God justifies, sanctifies, and redeems, not by your conscience, but by His own Shed Blood.
God is not dealing with your conscience with the Blood Atonement, He's dealing with your SIN.

Sidon · Jun 18, 2021

sawdust said:
I completely agree with what you say. My difficulty lies more in terminology when people start using head and heart. In today's understanding, issues of the "heart" are more about how you feel about something. But in the scriptures heart is about what you think at the core of your being and this is based on what you believe to be intrinsically true and value.

The scripture (NT) uses the terms gnosis and epignosis to differentiate between the type of knowledge you talk about above and the type of knowledge that leads to understanding through faith. As I like to say "I don't just believe the Bible, I live it". At least that is what I try to do and why I study the word so I can indeed live the life Christ came to give us and not simply be a "hearer". (Jm.1:22)

ps. Just wanted to add that all epignosis has to begin with gnosis. You can have gnosis without epignosis but you can't have epignosis without gnosis.

Unbelievers are defined as having an "evil heart of unbelief".
This isn't a feeling, its a fact.

Sidon · Jun 18, 2021

topher694 said:
Not looking for guidance for myself, thanks. I'm looking to see how other people approach these difficult questions.

And that is what i posted.

sawdust · Jun 18, 2021

Sidon said:
Unbelievers are defined as having an "evil heart of unbelief".
This isn't a feeling, its a fact.

I think you might need to reread what I said. I never said it was a feeling. The heart is the place in your thinking where you hold your intrinsic values.

Mr. M · Jun 18, 2021

Sidon said:
Justification by faith is not rooted in "conscience", its rooted in the Blood of Jesus.
God justifies, sanctifies, and redeems, not by your conscience, but by His own Shed Blood.
God is not dealing with your conscience with the Blood Atonement, He's dealing with your SIN.

My brother, the shed blood of Christ is conscience cleansing.
Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit
offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works
to serve the living God?
I am well aware of how the price of our redemption was paid, by which we are reconciled
with the Father.
Ephesians 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins,
according to the riches of His grace.
Colossians 1:14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

God is not simply "dealing with our sin", He is restoring a relationship by which we can live a
life that is pleasing to Him.
Romans 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death
of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

I encourage you to move past a rudimentary understanding of the Gospel to more solid food.
A full word study will show you the importance of this truth. [G4893] suneidesis

Sidon · Jun 18, 2021

sawdust said:
I think you might need to reread what I said. I never said it was a feeling. The heart is the place in your thinking where you hold your intrinsic values.

I dont need to reread it.
You just need to be more clear.

here is what you said..

""""""issues of the "heart" are more about how you feel about something. But in the scriptures heart is about what you think """""

So, you said that "thinking" is how the scripture is teaching "heart".
But that is not the case.
Here is the case.
"As a person BELIEVES in their HEART"....This is faith.

Also, what you believe you are, not what you think you are, is who you are, as defined by the NT.

Look at it like this...
WE can believe in Christ, or we can think about believing in Christ.

So, which one is the real "heart" and which one is the MIND only?
See it?

Sidon · Jun 18, 2021

Minister Monardo said:
My brother, the shed blood of Christ is conscience cleansing.
[G4893] suneidesis

The shed blood of Jesus is SIN cleansing , sin redeeming.
The Holy Spirit in you, is where your conscience and God find fellowship, or you find a guilty conscience.

The Spirit is born again, but the mind and the body, are not.
You are told you will get a new body later, and for now you are to "renew" you mind.
You "renew" it, because it wasn't renewed at the time of new birth.
That is why YOU are told to do it.

Mr. M · Jun 18, 2021

Sidon said:
The Spirit is born again, but the mind and the body, are not.
You are told you will get a new body later, and for now you are to "renew" you mind.
You "renew" it, because it wasn't renewed at the time of new birth.
That is why YOU are told to do it.

Yes, we receive the mind of Christ, that we may be renewed in the spirit of our mind.
I agree completely that we are told to do it, by abiding in the Holy Spirit.
Philippians 2:
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only,
but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

2 Corinthians 7:1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from
all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

We are only able to see this fruit if we abide in the Holy Spirit.
John 15:4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

Sidon said:
The Holy Spirit in you, is where your conscience and God find fellowship, or you find a guilty conscience.

Acts 24:16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void to offence
toward God, and toward men.
In this abiding, we can speak words of Life.
Matthew 12:37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.

Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

Sidon · Jun 18, 2021

Minister Monardo said:
Yes, we receive the mind of Christ, that we may be renewed in the spirit of our mind.
I agree completely that we are told to do it, by abiding in the Holy Spirit.
Philippians 2:.

If we have already "received the mind of Christ", then we would not need to renew it., and if we tried, we would be trying to renew Christ's mind.

Think about what you are saying.

Mr. M · Jun 18, 2021

Sidon said:
Justification by faith is not rooted in "conscience", its rooted in the Blood of Jesus.
God justifies, sanctifies, and redeems, not by your conscience, but by His own Shed Blood.
God is not dealing with your conscience with the Blood Atonement, He's dealing with your SIN.

Is this a retraction?

Sidon said:
The shed blood of Jesus is SIN cleansing , sin redeeming.
The Holy Spirit in you, is where your conscience and God find fellowship, or you find a guilty conscience.

The Spirit is born again, but the mind and the body, are not.
You are told you will get a new body later, and for now you are to "renew" you mind.
You "renew" it, because it wasn't renewed at the time of new birth.
That is why YOU are told to do it.

Mr. M · Jun 18, 2021

Sidon said:
Think about what you are saying.

Here is what I am saying:
1 Corinthians 2:16 For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?
But we have the mind of Christ.

Ephesians 4:
23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God,
in true righteousness and holiness.

You need to think about what Paul is saying. That is what I said.

Minister Monardo said:
Yes, we receive the mind of Christ, that we may be renewed in the spirit of our mind.

James 1:19

sawdust · Jun 18, 2021

Sidon said:
I dont need to reread it.
You just need to be more clear.

here is what you said..

""""""issues of the "heart" are more about how you feel about something. But in the scriptures heart is about what you think """""

So, you said that "thinking" is how the scripture is teaching "heart".
But that is not the case.
Here is the case.
"As a person BELIEVES in their HEART"....This is faith.

Also, what you believe you are, not what you think you are, is who you are, as defined by the NT.

Look at it like this...
WE can believe in Christ, or we can think about believing in Christ.

So, which one is the real "heart" and which one is the MIND only?
See it?

See what? All I see is the mess you made of what I said.

What one believes is in accordance with what one thinks and what one thinks at the core of their being (heart) is what one is.

Prov.23:7a As a man thinks in his heart, so is he

And faith is not what one "believes in their heart". You only need to see all the differing beliefs to know they cannot all be of faith. Faith is the word alive and working in your thinking. Faith comes from the word, not our thinking. Faith transforms our thinking.

Rom.10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Rom.12:2a Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.

Heb.11:1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

There a lot of things I believe but I sure wouldn't stake my life on it and am more than happy to change my thinking should someone prove things to be different.

Next time you want to tell me the NT defines certain things you say, maybe you could supply the scriptures.

Gregory Thompson · Jun 18, 2021

topher694 said:
Here's my question: When faced with a tough theological/doctrinal/moral question or dilemma what should the starting point be for a Christian? Do we start by asking, "What does God's Word say about this?" OR "What is God's heart concerning this?"

Now, I realize that the two are intimately interconnected, but I'm asking as a matter of practicality, what do you think is the more effective place to start to look for answers to the difficult questions.

I'm not asking for me, I'm already pretty firm in what I believe, but I'd like to hear other's thoughts/approaches on the matter.

I'd say go with the bible, but most people don't know how to read it properly.

the "heart" of the teachings says to love God with all that you are and to love those next to you the way you'd want to be loved. Most church applications don't reflect this heart of the teachings - so going with the heart and ignoring what people claim to be biblical tends to be the order for this era.

For this is a rebellious people.

topher694 · Jun 18, 2021

Michael Collum said:
I'd say go with the bible, but most people don't know how to read it properly.

the "heart" of the teachings says to love God with all that you are and to love those next to you the way you'd want to be loved. Most church applications don't reflect this heart of the teachings - so going with the heart and ignoring what people claim to be biblical tends to be the order for this era.

For this is a rebellious people.

If I'm understanding you correctly here, you are saying that people tend to misrepresent God's heart (by substituting their own heart) therefore that approach should be avoided? If so, my follow up question is: let's assume that the person truly is seeking God's heart on the matter, not their own or the culture's... does that change anything?

Gregory Thompson · Jun 18, 2021

topher694 said:
If I'm understanding you correctly here, you are saying that people tend to misrepresent God's heart (by substituting their own heart) therefore that approach should be avoided? If so, my follow up question is: let's assume that the person truly is seeking God's heart on the matter, not their own or the culture's... does that change anything?

It would mean that they would have boldness on the day of judgment because in this world they are like Him.

If the world were populated by people like Jesus, that would change everything.

However, if the salt of the earth loses it's saltiness - then it's discarded - and there's no preservative and everything continues to rot.

Sidon · Jun 19, 2021

Minister Monardo said:
Is this a retraction?

A retraction of what?

Let me restate it again, as before.
We do not "receive the mind of Christ" when we are born again.
This is why we are to RENEW our mind.
We would not have to RENEW it, if our mind was made the "mind of Christ".
Its not.
This is why we are instructed to RENEW it.

Question: Where do you start, God's Word or God's heart?

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