Is Jesus' birthday on December 25?

AFrazier said:

I have a ways to go. The research is mostly done, but writing it is a huge task. I can spend all day just to write two paragraphs. You have to make sure you're being clear in what you're saying. You have to notate and cite your sources. You have to make sure you're being objective in how you're presenting your arguments. It's a lot of work.

But I do hope to have it done in the next few years if possible.

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ralliann said:

Well do you have a title or anything a person could look for?

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AFrazier said:

The working title (and hopefully the final title) is:

Anni Domini: The Years of the Lord, From Birth to Death, by Alexander M. Frazier

A publisher may choose to call it something else, but that's the title I like, and that I'm presently using.

The book will cover all relevant topics: Herod the Great (and related), Pontius Pilate, the fifteenth year of Tiberius, the year of the baptism, the course of Abijah, the Star of Bethlehem, the conversion and ministry of Paul, the date of the crucifixion, and everything related. I've spent the last two decades chasing down every lead, following up on every citation, leaving no stone unturned. I feel confident that I will break new ground on at least two topics. And I'm hopeful that the hard work will put it in a category of "authority on the subject," if you catch my drift. If nothing else, the book will be worth having just for the list of resources. I can't tell you how hard it was to track down some of the facts over the years. People are welcome to form their own conclusions if they disagree with mine.

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ralliann said:

Yes, and thank you for your hard work. Even if there is disagreement, I think stuff like this narrows things to at least be on the same general page on questions like this
it helps to unify and focus narrowing the division. The Church is all over the place these days, and it makes it difficult to communicate the division is so wide and to learn anything as well becomes difficult.

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Aussie Pete said:

Almost certainly not. The more likely month was September. Shepherds did not tend flocks in the snow.

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thelord's_pearl said:

Wow, so long responses in that thread. I just want to know the historical evidence in answer to my 1 question so I'll just see if I get more responses in this thread

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Root of Jesse said:

Regarding the shepherds, it's not true. Where would the sheep go in the winter, and what were those wool coats for? And almost certainly, the shepherds could get wool coats to keep them warm.

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Aussie Pete said:

I suggest you check out the actual historical reality rather than make assumptions. And how would shepherds find their sheep in the snow? They are the same colour. OK, that's a joke. Shepherds had small flocks, not the massive herds you see today. They made enclosures, the sheepfold. to protect the sheep. The shepherd would sleep in the opening to the fold. So the sheep would be safe in the sheepfold and the shepherd protected the sheep. I found this on "Manners and customs in Bible Lands"

"In the late autumn or winter months, there are times when the shepherd can find no pasturage that is available for his flock, and then he must become responsible for feeding the animals himself. If the flock is small there may be times when it is stabled within the peasant house, and the family lives on a sort of mezzanine floor above it. At, such seasons of the year the shepherd must provide the food. This is what Isaiah meant when he said: "He shall feed his flock like a shepherd" (Isa. 40:11). In some sections of Syria, flocks are taken at this season to places in the mountain country, where the shepherd busies himself with the bushy trees, cutting down branches that have green leaves or tender twigs, that the sheep and goats can eat. Micah was probably speaking of this custom of providing food for the sheep, when he said: "Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage" (Micah 7:14)."

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Root of Jesse said:

I appreciate the joke, but I think you're making your own assumptions. Jesus Himself talked about a shepherd leaving 99 sheep to go after the one, so I don't know what you consider 'large' or 'small'. That sheepfold you're talking about would be open air, and yes, the shepherd would sleep at the entrance. I think the warmth of the animals would help all of them.
As an aside, I don't know if you know, but monarch butterflies congregate in winter in the mountains of Michoacan, in Mexico. It's rather cold there, but they huddle together for warmth, and shift positions for the good of the group. What I'm saying here is that sheep would also huddle together more to keep warm.
Regardless, there is no timeline of Jesus' birth or His manifestation as God. Some say, including that documentary I mentioned, that when the Wise Men came, he was no longer in the manger. He was already sheltered.
I still believe the ancient Church, and the Bible account. I also believe that Matthew wrote first, Mark second, Luke third and John long after the other three.

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Aussie Pete said:

All the gospels were written after the epistles. I don't know why the compilers of the Bible placed the books in the current order. You are likely right about the wise men. There was a reason why Herod ordered the death of children up to the age of two.

Your point about 100 sheep is fair enough. In Australia, the average is close to 3,000. However, I still think it unlikely that He was born in winter. Travelling would have been difficult so why would Rome require a census at that time of year? Summer is hot, Autumn not so much. September/October much more likely.

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PaulCyp1 said:

There is no person from 2,000 years ago whose birth date is known today. However, the birthdate of the Savior of humanity is a major event that should be celebrated, so the Church He founded, the Catholic Church, selected December 25 to be the day upon which it would celebrate that event.

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ralliann said:

Doesn't the Greek Orthodox celebrate his birth in early January? I don't think either one called each other "pagans" or sharply otherwise divided over this issue did they?

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SuperCow said:

In 1582AD western Europe adjusted their calendar from the Julian calendar to the Gregorian calendar. This required adjusting the calendar by 12 days. Russia did not adjust their calendar at this time, causing their calendar to be 12 days off from the rest of Europe. (I did not know this extended to the Greek Orthodox, but it kind of makes sense since the Eastern Roman empire lasted so much longer than the west, and Greek was probably influenced by this.)

Anyway, the world eventually synchronized their calendars, but not their holidays. This is why Russia celebrates Christmas on January 7th, not just so the Russian immigrants can save money on Christmas shopping by buying during the after-Christmas sales.

There's a story that Napoleon won the battle of Ulm against the Austrians, because the Russian's calendar was behind and arrived 12 days late though other historians dispute this. Another story says Russia came to the 1908 Olympics in London 12 days late as well.

Anyway, before 1582AD everyone celebrated Christmas on the same day of the year. As countries adopted the Gregorian calendar, this got out of synch.

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ralliann said:

Doesn't the Greek Orthodox celebrate his birth in early January? I don't think either one called each other "pagans" or sharply otherwise divided over this issue did they?

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GreekOrthodox said:

If we follow the Julian calendar, it is still December 25, but on the Gregorian calendar it is Jan 7th. There was a belief that a famous person normally died on the same day as their conception. So someone calculated that the 14th of Nisan was March 25, and well, 9 months later would be December 25. The real date of Christ's birth is unknown and theologically it doesnt matter. The Feast of the Nativity is to celebrate His incarnation.

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