How Politics Hijacked Science and Religion

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The Barbarian

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As you know, numbers don't lie, liars use numbers.

More often, they just ignore the data. Denial is strong in the anti-mask community.

True. That's why half of America no longer trusts our public health agencies.

Actually, 52% of Americans in March said they had a great deal of confidence in CDC, while about 25% said they were somewhat confident in CDC. Only 20% said they didn't have confidence in CDC.
Poll Finds Public Health Has A Trust Problem

In fact, as you see, CDC has the highest level of confidence among health agencies. This in spite of a huge campaign to undermine that confidence. Notice that republicans tend to have little confidence in the agency, while independents and democrats have much greater confidence.

It appears that the issue is part of the QAnon "election was stolen", "Jewish space lasers" stories and such. Bottom line is, in spite of the Big Lie, about 77 percent of Americans have at least some confidence in the CDC, as opposed to other agencies, with much lower levels.


As you know, numbers don't lie, liars use numbers.

Possibly so. Or maybe they just trust people who lie to them.

That's why, for example, when Gov. Abbot "opened up" things in Texas before it was safe, most Texans continued to wear masks until CDC scientists considered it to be safe to do without them. Go figure.

You really do live in an alternate reality.

Texas can be that way, yes. But it's true. When he tried to force the city of Austin to comply with his edict, he got slapped down by the Texas Supreme Court. And most Texans just continued to wear masks in public places in spite of his proclamation.

Most businesses continued to operate safely and require masks for employees and visitors.
 
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The Barbarian

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Still waiting for someone to show me the masking studies that include the time period October 2020 - January 2021.

If you want to cherry pick your times, you'll probably have to do the numbers yourself. As you know, I showed you the results for all states for the entire pandemic through April.

Not surprisingly, it showed that states with mask mandates had an average infection rate significantly lower than the average for states without them.

Which is a better measure than cherry-picking a briefer time in the pandemic.
 
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The Barbarian

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The Barbarian

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Also still waiting for someone to show a study on the efficacy of outdoor masking.

Other than the Sturgis rally, I don't know of another outdoor superspreader event documented. Masks would work just as well, but the exposure would be much less.
 
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Derek1234

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Are you an advocate of Zero-COVID? What I mean is, do you think COVID can be eradicated, or do you think that COVID will become endemic and we'll have to learn to live with it?
I'm not a C19 expert. The prevailing view among the experts appears to be that it's here to stay, so I think it'll be something we have to live with. As ever, the western world is likely to be able to do that first through vaccines (primary defence) and herd immunity (outcome based benefit). I doubt masking, distancing etc will ultimately be advocated for in the medium term. But as I say, personal view only.
 
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Derek1234

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You keep using the word "worked". Can you define what that means? That seems like a good place to start to objectively determine what "worked" and what didn't.

Secondly, what if none of it "worked"? What if the advocates of focused protection were right, and nothing we did or can do can stop viral spread? What if our best option was to focus the protection where it was needed most, you know, like we did in EVERY other pandemic prior to this one? How could one even objectively analyze this, since focused protection was deemed reckless at the beginning of the pandemic by The Science™?

Thirdly, you don't even mention collateral damage, which has been one of the biggest failings of public health throughout this pandemic. Should scientists weigh the costs of "mitigation" against other consequences? What is "acceptable" in these cases? I posted this link yesterday that attempts to quantify a cost/beneift analysis of the response in the UK COVID-19 QALYs - Collateral Global.

Does it matter if suicides have increased? Mental health declines? Education losses? Missed diagnoses of other diseases due to COVID? Job losses? At what point does our "mitigation" become counter-productive? Any objective analysis on the efficacy of NPI's would include this collateral damage.
By "worked" I mean "was effective at reducing the R-rate and ultimately on the effects of (a) excess mortality and (b) severest effects of C19".

On your second point, what if none of it worked, that really falls into how do you prove a negative. The evidence strongly suggests that some strategies have been effective at limiting the spread of C19, though less precise about which intervetions were optimal. Globally, most governments' initial strategies - perhaps driven by panic about the unknown risks of what seemed a particularly virulent and lethal novel coronavirus - appear to have been less focused. But with good reason, IMHO - the epidemiology was unknown, and they were treating this in the way that they would treat a national security threat.

Third, collateral. Here, we agree. It is why science can only ever inform policy, but should not "be" policy. Of course it matters that mental health has taken a battering, that other physical health outcomes have taken a huge hit (especially among the elderly or infirm), that the global economy has retracted, that businesses have closed, that education has been affected (and that educational outcome disparities have likely increased, between those who can afford decent and supportive ICT to enable remote learning and those who can't). Again, the role of politicians is to work out what is acceptable collateral and implement science-based strategies.
 
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probinson

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If you want to cherry pick your times, you'll probably have to do the numbers yourself.

Odd comment, since ALL of the studies on the efficacy of masking you've posted cherry-pick a brief time when cases were declining.

So, no studies that include the time period October 2020 through January 2021? Strange.

Here's a graph showing how the CDC has cherry-picked their data for their "studies";
CDCMaskStudy.jpg
 
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probinson

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That's why, for example, when Gov. Abbot "opened up" things in Texas before it was safe, most Texans continued to wear masks until CDC scientists considered it to be safe to do without them. Go figure.

This seems to be a tacit admission that masks don't need to be mandated, since people wore them anyway (which is an entirely anecdotal statement not supported by anything at all, but sure).

So do you advocate for letting people make their own decisions for whether they should wear a mask or not?
 
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probinson

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In the last few years, the FDA has been politicized and industry people have been given decision-making authority by Donald Trump.

There's a lot of cleaning up to do.

Is that your excuse for everything?

I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but Trump hasn't been the President since January 20. And the FDA has had issues long before Trump came along.

Dr. Walensky wasn't the Director of the CDC until Biden appointed her.

But sure. It's Trump's fault!
 
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probinson

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By "worked" I mean "was effective at reducing the R-rate and ultimately on the effects of (a) excess mortality and (b) severest effects of C19".

By how much? If we're going to have an objective measure, the numbers cannot be subjective. We can't simply say "reducing" something. How much reduction? In comparison to the collateral costs, what level of reduction should be considered beneficial?

On your second point, what if none of it worked, that really falls into how do you prove a negative. The evidence strongly suggests that some strategies have been effective at limiting the spread of C19,

I'm genuinely curious what evidence you believe "strongly suggests" that. If anything, the evidence might suggest that some strategies were effective at delaying the spread, and disproportionately making other people bear the burden. We called them "essential workers".

Governments all over the world told people they were "safer at home", but not for everyone. The laptop class, of which I am a member, was able to sit "safer at home" while the working class had to keep things rolling along, delivering us food and Amazon packages. They had to face the virus daily while those of us that had cushy jobs sat at home largely unaffected. There wasn't even a hint of irony when the government would say things like, "It's safer for you to get your food delivered" Maybe for the one receiving the delivery, but not for the delivery driver and the people who made it for you. It was nothing more than a new kind of caste system where we made the lowest paid employees bear the brunt of the virus while the affluent isolated. Sounds fair. All the while, we were making those "essential workers" deal with the virus to "slow the spread", which kind of worked, I guess, since the affluent weren't nearly as susceptible. It's why the poor were disproportionately harmed by the virus, not because not enough people wore masks and/or distanced properly, but because the "safer at home" policies implemented by governments the world over shifted the burden to the working class by design. We'll make the working class run around while the novel virus is circulating and isolate ourselves from them. It's still astounding to me that people think that was OK.

though less precise about which intervetions were optimal. Globally, most governments' initial strategies - perhaps driven by panic about the unknown risks of what seemed a particularly virulent and lethal novel coronavirus - appear to have been less focused. But with good reason, IMHO - the epidemiology was unknown, and they were treating this in the way that they would treat a national security threat.
My opinion is that the government was more interested in shifting the blame to the people, so that we wouldn't talk about the foolish decisions they made that resulted in countless, needless deaths. Things like sending elderly people back to nursing homes and prohibiting them from being tested upon admission, even if they were symptomatic. This while we knew that the elderly were thousands of times more likely to die from COVID. So they introduced masking and social distancing as a keen way to shift the blame onto us. And dutifully, "studies" were hastily and shoddily thrown together to support these recommendations after the fact, and thus The Science™ was born.

Third, collateral. Here, we agree. It is why science can only ever inform policy, but should not "be" policy. Of course it matters that mental health has taken a battering, that other physical health outcomes have taken a huge hit (especially among the elderly or infirm), that the global economy has retracted, that businesses have closed, that education has been affected (and that educational outcome disparities have likely increased, between those who can afford decent and supportive ICT to enable remote learning and those who can't). Again, the role of politicians is to work out what is acceptable collateral and implement science-based strategies.

Which they completely and utterly failed to do.
 
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The Barbarian

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There's a lot of cleaning up to do.

Is that your excuse for everything?

Actually, it's an admission that thing got really messed up. As you know, he botched the pandemic response, admitting that he knew it was going to be bad, but telling us it was going to disappear "like a miracle."

And his appointees were, um, not the sharpest people around. So clean-up is proceeding.

Anyway, what CDC does to get the system working again has nothing to do with the fact that states with mask mandates average significantly lower infection rates than states without them. Would you like to see that, again?

Or if you like, you could collect the data and do it yourself. But since the pandemic is winding down, the results to June won't be a lot different than the April results I showed you.
 
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The Barbarian

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By how much? If we're going to have an objective measure, the numbers cannot be subjective. We can't simply say "reducing" something. How much reduction?

In comparison to the collateral costs,

Yeah, start there. If we're going to have an objective measure, the claims can't be subjective. We can't simply say "collateral cost." How much are the collateral costs?

what level of reduction should be considered beneficial?

We'll know when you show us objective (with evidence) "collateral costs." What do you have?
 
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probinson

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The Barbarian

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This seems to be a tacit admission that masks don't need to be mandated, since people wore them anyway

The data from state comparisons seems to refute that belief. Perhaps not every state is as sensible as Texas. And it should be noted that even though most Texans did the right thing, a quick run through Wal-Mart would show you that there were people who didn't have much sense.

(which is an entirely anecdotal statement not supported by anything at all, but sure)

James Henson, director of the Texas Politics Project at the University of Texas at Austin, says the newest poll his team is working on shows that Texans mask usage hasn't dropped drastically since the mandate ended.


"We still have about 80% of Texans, as recently as this month, reporting that they are wearing masks when they go out," Henson said.

Texans continue to wear masks | cbs19.tv

It's normal for the average Texan to be a lot smarter than the governor. It's become kind of a tradition.


So do you advocate for letting people make their own decisions for whether they should wear a mask or not?

In the same sense that I'd advocate for letting people make their own decisions for whether they should drive while drunk.

So long as they don't do it on public roads and pose danger only to themselves, I'm good with that. Same with masks during the pandemic. We're pretty close to everybody who wants to be immunized, can be immunized, and the number of infections is dropping, so it's not really much of an issue, now. As you learned, masks were important in reducing infection rates, and where they were used widely, the average infection rates were much lower.
 
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The Barbarian

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There's actually an entire website dedicated to examining the collateral costs of the mitigation measures. Here is a link to the studies;

Studies Archive - Collateral Global

Some stuff on Ghana, Italy, and other nations. So show us your numbers for the United States and with the evidence. What do you have?

f we're going to have an objective measure, the claims can't be subjective. We can't simply say "collateral cost." How much are the collateral costs?
 
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probinson

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Actually, it's an admission that thing got really messed up. As you know, he botched the pandemic response, admitting that he knew it was going to be bad, but telling us it was going to disappear "like a miracle."

Kind of like Dr. Fauci;
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/09/10/if-trump-lied-so-did-fauci/

Anyway, what CDC does to get the system working again...

I know you'd like to rush by this, since it demonstrably shows the politicization of the CDC, but Dr. Walensky's comments on school openings that were then subsequently shot down by the Biden Administration have NOTHING to do with Donald Trump.

We're supposed to pretend like every decision made during the pandemic was based on science, but we can see that's not the case with the guidance on school openings. Not even close.
 
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probinson

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As you learned, masks were important in reducing infection rates, and where they were used widely, the average infection rates were much lower.

No, they really weren't. Just as many people died in states with mask mandates as without. In many cases, MORE people died in states with mask mandates. They did not save lives, no matter how many times you say it.
 
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probinson

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Some stuff on Ghana, Italy, and other nations. So show us your numbers for the United States and with the evidence. What do you have?

There are 19 pages of studies at the link I provided.

Surely you're not implying that there were no collateral costs for mitigation measures, are you?
 
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probinson

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The data from state comparisons seems to refute that belief. Perhaps not every state is as sensible as Texas. And it should be noted that even though most Texans did the right thing,

"Did the right thing". The propaganda is thick with this one.

James Henson, director of the Texas Politics Project at the University of Texas at Austin, says the newest poll his team is working on shows that Texans mask usage hasn't dropped drastically since the mandate ended.


"We still have about 80% of Texans, as recently as this month, reporting that they are wearing masks when they go out," Henson said.

Texans continue to wear masks | cbs19.tv

Henson also said this;

Henson says he doesn't feel the data represents the whole picture of Texas' population or the degrees of people's ideologies.
 
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