IS ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT GOD'S CHURCH?

Davy

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I agree with you that Israel does indeed believe in Jesus and that is what happens in ZEch 14 the LORD is king king that day and they shall say the LORD is one. Now this is Jesus the lamb that was slain coming as the Lion of the tribe of Judah. He comes on that day Jerusalem is being overrun. He melts the enemies on that day. The Mt of Olives splits in two and the new river flows. This is happening at the day of Armgeddon which is Jezreel. The Jews that make it are confessing Jesus is LORD and King. This fulfills literally Luke one that Israel is delivered by Jesus and comes to a time when they worship and serve in holiness without fear all their days. This is not about the church as the was never called not my people in Jezreel. The context is about God keeping the covenants and oaths and prophecy and the futurist view does not have to make allegories out of what it written; you can just believe it and the timeline shows it will happen. Eze 47 shows the dead sea is to be healed after that mt of Olives is split in two and the 12 tribes do indeed get their inheritance in the land of covenant at that time.

As I showed, the name Jezreel in Hosea 1:11 does NOT mean the battle of Armageddon. The Hosea Scripture I posted makes that obvious.

Likewise in Hosea 1:4, Jezreel is being used about God ending the northern kingdom of Israel, not gathering armies around Israel! So you've missed that application of Jezreel in Hosea 1 also.

So what you're proposing is just total un-Biblical speculation.

Hos 1:2-6
2 The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, "Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD."

3 So he went and took Gomer the daughter of Diblaim; which conceived, and bare him a son.

4 And the LORD said unto him, "Call his name Jezreel; for yet a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and will cause to cease the kingdom of the house of Israel."

5 And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel.

6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, "Call her name Lo-ruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away."

KJV

Evidently you cannot read, or you simply don't want... to read that. God is rebuking the northern kingdom of Israel, called the "house of Israel" after He split old Israel into 2 separate kingdoms per 1 Kings 11 forward.

Jezreel is being used AGAINST ISRAEL in the above Scripture, NOT against Israel's enemies like you're trying to do.

But in the final verse of that Hosea 1 chapter, God reverses His usage of Jezreel to mean a POSITIVE event, the gathering of His elect in final...

Hos 1:10-11
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.
KJV


That part above underlined in bold in Hosea 1:10 is what Apostle Paul spoke to believing Roman Gentiles of Christ's Church! Then verse 11 confirms the gathering event by Jesus using the concept of Jezreel, which what you're doing is completely different.

Rom 9:23-26
23 And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As He saith also in Osee, 'I will call them My people, which were not My people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, 'Ye are not My people'; there shall they be called the children of the living God.'
KJV

Apostle Paul applied that above Romans 9 Scripture to GENTILES IN CHRIST'S CHURCH. So there's the evidence of Christ's Church being GATHERED AS GOD'S ISRAEL IN FINAL.
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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As I showed, the name Jezreel in Hosea 1:11 does NOT mean the battle of Armageddon. The Hosea Scripture I posted makes that obvious.

Likewise in Hosea 1:4, Jezreel is being used about God ending the northern kingdom of Israel, not gathering armies around Israel! So you've missed that application of Jezreel in Hosea 1 also.

So what you're proposing is just total un-Biblical speculation.

Hos 1:2-6
2 The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, "Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD."

3 So he went and took Gomer the daughter of Diblaim; which conceived, and bare him a son.

4 And the LORD said unto him, "Call his name Jezreel; for yet a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and will cause to cease the kingdom of the house of Israel."

5 And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel.

6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, "Call her name Lo-ruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away."

KJV

Evidently you cannot read, or you simply don't want... to read that. God is rebuking the northern kingdom of Israel, called the "house of Israel" after He split old Israel into 2 separate kingdoms per 1 Kings 11 forward.

Jezreel is being used AGAINST ISRAEL in the above Scripture, NOT against Israel's enemies like you're trying to do.

But in the final verse of that Hosea 1 chapter, God reverses His usage of Jezreel to mean a POSITIVE event, the gathering of His elect in final...

Hos 1:10-11
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.
KJV


That part above underlined in bold in Hosea 1:10 is what Apostle Paul spoke to believing Roman Gentiles of Christ's Church! Then verse 11 confirms the gathering event by Jesus using the concept of Jezreel, which what you're doing is completely different.

Rom 9:23-26
23 And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As He saith also in Osee, 'I will call them My people, which were not My people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, 'Ye are not My people'; there shall they be called the children of the living God.'
KJV

Apostle Paul applied that above Romans 9 Scripture to GENTILES IN CHRIST'S CHURCH. So there's the evidence of Christ's Church being GATHERED AS GOD'S ISRAEL IN FINAL.
Hi I can read and follow the context and often scriptures have many layers of meaning. In Hosea I will get back to that and show that the literal context still will come to pass. In acts when Pentecost had come Peter quotes Joel 2 and notes this is what is happening. Now if you go back to Joel 2 Peter quotes this
“And it shall come to pass afterward
That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your old men shall dream dreams,
Your young men shall see visions.
29 And also on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days.

Now read the entire passage and the great deliverance exactly like Luke 1 predicts, like Rev tells and like Zech 14 and Dan 7 Isaiah 61, Eze 36 all show again takes place in Zion and the before and after picture is clear believing these things will take place as it is written.

Now Rom 9 I love that the Gentiles who are not my people are being brought in. Now is that the only sense of Hosea or are their still future details like Joel 2 obviously not fulfilled?

after the day of Jezreel where not my people are now declared sons of the living God it says
Then the children of Judah and the children of Israel
Shall be gathered together,
And appoint for themselves one head;
And they shall come up out of the land,
For great will be the day of Jezreel!

“Therefore, behold, I will allure her,
Will bring her into the wilderness,
And speak comfort to her.
15 I will give her her vineyards from there,
And the Valley of Achor as a door of hope;
She shall sing there,
As in the days of her youth,
As in the day when she came up from the land of Egypt.
16 “And it shall be, in that day,”
Says the LORD,
That you will call Me ‘My Husband,’[fn]
And no longer call Me ‘My Master,’[fn]
17 For I will take from her mouth the names of the Baals,
And they shall be remembered by their name no more.
18 In that day I will make a covenant for them
With the beasts of the field,
With the birds of the air,
And with the creeping things of the ground.
Bow and sword of battle I will shatter from the earth,
To make them lie down safely.
19 “I will betroth you to Me forever;
Yes, I will betroth you to Me
In righteousness and justice,
In lovingkindness and mercy;
20 I will betroth you to Me in faithfulness,
And you shall know the LORD.
21 “It shall come to pass in that day
That I will answer,” says the LORD;
“I will answer the heavens,
And they shall answer the earth.
22 The earth shall answer
With grain,
With new wine,
And with oil;
They shall answer Jezreel.[fn]
23 Then I will sow her for Myself in the earth,
And I will have mercy on her who had not obtained mercy;[fn]
Then I will say to those who were not My people,[fn]
‘You are My people!’
And they shall say, ‘You are my God!’ ”

These promises are to Judah and Israel and they are fulfilled when the battle bow is broken from the earth. Now there is war until Jesus comes and they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks and they shall learn war no more. This is what happens a the onset of the millennium. The context is Judah and Israel and this identity is affirmed
5 I will give her her vineyards from there,
And the Valley of Achor as a door of hope;
She shall sing there,
As in the days of her youth,
As in the day when she came up from the land of Egypt.

As this is who came out of Egypt.

When does this happen. chapter 3 notes 4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. 5 Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They shall fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days.

The return of the sacrifice after many days without is the key and this sacrifice is the stage set for 2 Thes 2 the man of sin to be revealed and it will be the abomination of desolation in the temple. This event will leave 42 months until Armageddon aka Jezreel.
 
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RickReads

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My comments in ( )

]Which does not take into account that the apostles Peter and Paul "avoided the language of the text" in their interpretation of Hosea 1:9, 2:23--the promise made to Israel is fulfilled in the Gentiles.
(Romans 9:24-26; 1 Peter 2:10)

(Not sure where this comes from. I don`t see Peter and Paul avoiding any language and the Hosea verses were never promises made to Israel. So this statement needs a lot of clarification.)

Or that the writer of Hebrews "avoided the language of the text" in his interpretation of Jeremiah 31:31-34--the promise to Israel of a new covenant is fullfilled in the Gentile church, which is the true Israel. (Hebrews 8:6-13, Hebrews 10:15-18)

(Jeremiah 31 is unfulfilled. As for your Hebrews verses, Hebrews 8 is unfulfilled, Hebrews 10 only confirms Gentile participation in the New Covenant, doesn`t show New Covenant fulfillment as it pertains to the real estate Jesus owns in the Middle East.)

So here's a third option, and the one I choose:
All interpretion of prophetic riddles (Numbers 12:8) must be in agreement with authoritative NT teaching.
What does not agree with authoritative NT teaching is misinterpretation, because it sets the word of God against itself in contradiction.

( I agree but we must prove what is authoritative and what isn`t. Your opinion by itself won`t do.)
 
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Clare73

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Curious.
Why the desire to speculate about it on this thread then?
What were you hoping to offer to the discussion?
I understand. . .it doesn't go down (swallow) easy.

I wasn't speculating, I was offering a defense of all God's actions as just, no matter if it's slaughtering of all people and animals by the Israelites, or slaughering of Israelites by Israelites. . .
no matter what we think about it.

But "I got no pony in this race" (curses on Israel).
 
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RickReads

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My comments ( )

The promises of Abraham were made specifically to Jesus (Galatians 3:16). He doesn't inherit them, they were his by right at their origin when they were made to him personally.

( There are several layers to Jesus and the new covenant. He is an heir who inherits because He is a physical descendant of Abraham, an Israelite heir of the covenants with God, and a man in the lineage of David. He was born into the physical position of an heir to the covenants.)

All that is Christ's is also that of all those in Christ (Galatians 3:29), not by inheritancei but by union with Christ in Christ.

(Paul calls it an inheritance so inheritance is authoritative.)

"10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."


Yes, those in Christ are his brothers, and partake of all the promises made to Christ, as well as to Abraham, by that union with Christ of being in Christ, not by inheritance.
Our inheritance is us in our glorified bodies, being with Christ, in the eternal heavenly land/city
(Hebrews 11:16), of the new heavens and new earth.

( You add to the text to make it support your argument. Not authoritative here.)
 
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Davy

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Notice Paul calls us the seed of Abraham, but not the seed of Jacob?

The Promises continued to Abraham son's Isaac, and then to Jacob, and then to Jacob's son Joseph, and then to Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh. So one cannot just stop God's Promises to Abraham just with Abraham, that foolishness.
 
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RickReads

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My comments in ( )

So, for the sake of your personal theology, you are willing to deny the teaching Paul received from Jesus Christ personally?

( Of course not. Don`t talk like the sand kickers around here. You can be better than that.)

The saints are (the person of) the Father's personal inheritance and treasure.

(Not until Jesus delivers up the Kingdom. Right now the saints belong to Jesus.)

He's coming back to gather his saints and judge the world. . .and there's going to be a new heaven and a new earth. . .what do you think that will be about?

( those are 2 different time periods.)

And about:
1) events which authortative NT teaching presents as happening together, some of which you separate by 1,000 years;

( You can isolate individual passages to make it seem so, but no the Bible doesn`t teach that.)
 
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Davy

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My comments in ( )

]Which does not take into account that the apostles Peter and Paul "avoided the language of the text" in their interpretation of Hosea 1:9, 2:23--the promise made to Israel is fulfilled in the Gentiles.
(Romans 9:24-26; 1 Peter 2:10)

(Not sure where this comes from. I don`t see Peter and Paul avoiding any language and the Hosea verses were never promises made to Israel. So this statement needs a lot of clarification.)

Don't know how you can say the promises were never made to Israel in Hosea, because to the "house of Israel" (ten tribes) in Hosea is exactly who He is talking about as Lo Ami (not My people) at one point, but in final He calls them the sons of the living God, which Apostle Paul includes believing Gentiles per Romans 9.
 
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RickReads

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My comments ( )

They changed it, teachng that promises which the text made to Israel are fulfilled in the Gentiles.

(The Hosea verses you used were never about Israel. They changed nothing.)

Correct. . .but they do have to do with the necessity of interpreting prophecy literally, which
you maintain is the only correct way to interpret prophecy, which Peter and Paul did not do, they
thereby authoritatively demonstrating that literally is not the only way to correctly intepret prophecy.

(Peter and Paul interpret literaly. No place in the Bible where they do not.)

And on the authority of their practice, I do not always interpret prophecy literally either.

( I know. It`s the only way to make your beliefs work. You have to take liberties with the text.)
 
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RickReads

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Don't know how you can say the promises were never made to Israel in Hosea, because to the "house of Israel" (ten tribes) in Hosea is exactly who He is talking about as Lo Ami (not My people) at one point, but in final He calls them the sons of the living God, which Apostle Paul includes believing Gentiles per Romans 9.

We are discussing two verses not the entire book of Hosea. Neither verse makes a promise to Israel.
 
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Davy

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We are discussing two verses not the entire book of Hosea. Neither verse makes a promise to Israel.

The WHOLE Book of Hosea is to about the "house of Israel", so what your saying does not make sense.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Are they not translated "Israel" in those narratives?

Examples?

Let the narrative determine if "Gentiles" means non-Israelites, or nations/tribes (of Israel).
 
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RickReads

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The WHOLE Book of Hosea is to about the "house of Israel", so what your saying does not make sense.

If you are going to inject yourself into the conversation I was having then please have the decency to read the posts and find out what`s going on before you insult me.
 
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parousia70

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I understand. . .it doesn't go down (swallow) easy.

I wasn't speculating, I was offering a defense of all God's actions as just, no matter if it's slaughtering of all people and animals by the Israelites, or slaughering of Israelites by Israelites. . .
no matter what we think about it.

I don't think anyone was challenging that here, were they/we?

So I'm still unclear why you though you needed to offer a defense to that which was not being attacked?

You seem to have erected a straw man, and yes, I have difficulty swallowing any straw man as a legitimate argument. In fact, I find it impossible.
 
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Clare73

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Clare73 said:
Are they not translated "Israel" in the NT narratives where "nations" can only mean Israel?

Examples?
Let the narrative determine if "Gentiles" means non-Israelites, or nations/tribes (of Israel).
Non-responsive.
 
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