Believe in Jesus and you will be saved

klutedavid said:

Paul is saying exactly the same as John. But the way they explain it is very different.

Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

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But Paul is not saying there that we need to love others to be saved/to stay saved.

You would agree with that?

You can't ignore the whole bible just for one verse. Apostle James asks: can the faith save him? Which means the faith cannot save. Non-believers don't do works to be saved. Because they don't want to be saved. What's difference between christians who don't act to be saved and them? None, it's same. So none of them will be saved. To be saved you must work hard for God. Probably it can happen after death too. Salvation without works isn't salvation. This is some trick, but not salvation!

fli said:

The OT message was believe God and be saved. When one believes God they have repented of the original sin.

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This is really good. That faith, in any case, is born out by obedience to Gods will. Adam, for example, was not created to sin in any way, including the act of disbelieving God, resulting in the original act of disobedience. Nor was he created to lie, steal, lust, murder., etc.

Guojing said:

So my point to you is, if you read scripture and understand them literally, John cannot be preaching the same gospel as Paul does.

People try to spiritualize what John is actually saying, in order to make John say the same as Paul.

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They say the same.

“For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” Rom 2:13

“And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.” Rom 5:5

“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.”Rom 8:12-13

“Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.” Rom 13:10

“…if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.” 1 Cor 13:2

fhansen said:

They say the same.

“For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” Rom 2:13

“And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.” Rom 5:5

“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.”Rom 8:12-13

“Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.” Rom 13:10

“…if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.” 1 Cor 13:2

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So you believe Paul is saying "We need to love others to be saved/to stay saved"?

Guojing said:

So you believe Paul is saying "We need to love others to be saved/to stay saved"?

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Yes, love is the goal of our faith, the heart and soul of Christianity, the reason Jesus came, the primary transformation into God’s own image that He works in us, the definition of justice or righteousness for man that we were made for which is why the greatest commandments are what they are.

And it acts, or works, for the good of others by its nature, finally providing the authentic means and motivation to fulfill the law, do good as per Rom 2:7 and Eph 2:10, and those things done for “the least of these” in Matt 25.
“The only thing that counts is faith working through love.” Gal 5:6

It’s both a gift, and necessarily a human choice, to accept and express that gift. In fact, it cannot be love unless it’s a choice. Catholicism actually teaches, quoting a 16th century believer in this case,
“At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love.”

Guojing said:

But Paul is not saying there that we need to love others to be saved/to stay saved.

You would agree with that?

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No not really. Here are some verses that highlight what Paul actually was teaching the disciples.

1 Timothy 1:5
But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

Ephesians 1:15
For this reason I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which exists among you and your love for all the saints.

Ephesians 3:17
So that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love.

Ephesians 6:23
Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:4
Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and the love which you have for all the saints.

1 Thessalonians 3:6
But now that Timothy has come to us from you, and has brought us good news of your faith and love.

It seems Paul was teaching exactly the same content as John. The audience John is addressing is Jewish so John uses the word 'commandments'. Whereas Paul is teaching a Gentile audience which knows nothing of commandments or law.

I think, if you asked Paul whether salvation required walking in the Spirit. Then Paul would certainly say yes.

Romans 8:6
For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace.

Romans 8:14
For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

klutedavid said:

No not really. Here are some verses that highlight what Paul actually was teaching the disciples.

1 Timothy 1:5
But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

Ephesians 1:15
For this reason I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which exists among you and your love for all the saints.

Ephesians 3:17
So that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love.

Ephesians 6:23
Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:4
Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and the love which you have for all the saints.

1 Thessalonians 3:6
But now that Timothy has come to us from you, and has brought us good news of your faith and love.

It seems Paul was teaching exactly the same content as John. The audience John is addressing is Jewish so John uses the word 'commandments'. Whereas Paul is teaching a Gentile audience which knows nothing of commandments or law.

I think, if you asked Paul whether salvation required walking in the Spirit. Then Paul would certainly say yes.

Romans 8:6
For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace.

Romans 8:14
For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

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Alright then, you believe that Paul is saying the same as John regarding salvation.

fhansen said:

Yes, love is the goal of our faith, the heart and soul of Christianity, the reason Jesus came, the primary transformation into God’s own image that He works in us, the definition of justice or righteousness for man that we were made for which is why the greatest commandments are what they are.

And it acts, or works, for the good of others by its nature, finally providing the authentic means and motivation to fulfill the law, do good as per Rom 2:7 and Eph 2:10, and those things done for “the least of these” in Matt 25.
“The only thing that counts is faith working through love.” Gal 5:6

It’s both a gift, and necessarily a human choice, to accept and express that gift. In fact, it cannot be love unless it’s a choice. Catholicism actually teaches, quoting a 16th century believer in this case,
“At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love.”

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Alright then, you believe that Paul is saying the same as John regarding salvation.

Guojing said:

Alright then, you believe that Paul is saying the same as John regarding salvation.

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Absolutely-and Jesus, and James.

Guojing said:

Alright then, you believe that Paul is saying the same as John regarding salvation.

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Faith and love, saved by faith first and gifted to love.

Salvation is a gift and cannot be earned (Ephesians 2:8).

Love is a gift and is mandatory for all Christians.

Yes, both a gift and an obligation. We’re obligated to do the right thing. Why not? Sola Caritas, IMO.

Clare73 said:

Faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," is what saves.

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Jesus and the works He did was to prove that He was the promised Messiah. It is The Messiah who is Eternal Life and not His works. And it is faith in the promised Messiah that gives Eternal Life.

that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”
Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.

And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world

klutedavid said:

Faith and love, saved by faith first and gifted to love.

Salvation is a gift and cannot be earned (Ephesians 2:8).

Love is a gift and is mandatory for all Christians.

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If you need to love others to stay saved, salvation is not purely a gift.

fhansen said:

Yes, both a gift and an obligation. We’re obligated to do the right thing. Why not? Sola Caritas, IMO.

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When you gift someone a gift, are they obliged to do anything you want, in order to keep that gift?

Guojing said:

If you need to love others to stay saved, salvation is not purely a gift.

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Of course it’s a gift, like faith, that we can accept or reject. To the extent that we accept and run with it, “investing our talents”, we do God’s will.

Guojing said:

When you gift someone a gift, are they obliged to do anything you want, in order to keep that gift?

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Anyone can do whatever they want with a gift. And that’s the point, man’s will is never totally uninvolved in his justification and salvation, because God wants it involved.

fli said:

Isaiah 41:22 "Let them bring forth and show us what will happen; Let them show the former things, what they were, That we may consider them, And know the latter end of them; Or declare to us things to come. NKJV]

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,' NKJV

If one knows how a thing began then we know how it will end.

Genesis 2: 17 God told Adam not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil or he would surely die. Genesis 3:17 Adam believed Eve and ate the forbidden fruit.

Sin and death began when Adam did not believe God.

Genesis 15:6 Abraham was accounted righteous when he believed God.

Isaiah 28: 16 Whoever believes in the cornerstone will not be put to shame.

The OT message was believe God and be saved. When one believes God they have repented of the original sin.

1 Peter 1: 20-21 through Jesus we believe in God.

1John 5:10 he who believes in the Son has the witness in himself. He who does not believe has called God a liar.

Salvation is guaranteed as long as one believes in Jesus. When we believe, trusting in His completed work, we come in as a child trusting the Father. By realizing that Jesus has done all that is needed for salvation we are giving Him all the praise, glory and honor that is due Him. If we claim that we need to do anything other than believe, we are taking some of Jesus' glory.

To bring God glory and honor we will repent of all sin. That shows God and the world that we love Him more than the world or worldly pleasures. The pleasures of the flesh are far far less than the pleasures of being a loved child of God. To love God with all one's heart, mind ,soul and strength is what He deserves. No work is done for salvation. Any work done is to bring Him glory, honor and praise.

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Not Only believe in him but OBEY him too and Repent from our sins.
Luke 6:46-47 Jesus says"Why do you call me Lord, Lord, yet don't do what I say?"Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:



May God Bless You

Clare73 said:

But there is more to saving faith than just believing.
True faith obeys in the Holy Spirit, which is the process of sanctification leading to holiness.
Absolutely no work is done for salvation, it is all of the Lord. (Revelation 7:10)

But we are everywhere in the NT commanded to engage in obedience by the Holy Spirit in the process of sanctification, leading to holiness.

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Bible dictionary definitions disagree with your ""sanctification leads to holiness"" narrative.

Sanctification & holiness are one in the same. They are God given & can never be lost.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

Holiness, Holy, Holily

[ A-1,Noun,G38, hagiasmos ]
translated holiness" in the AV of Romans 6:19, Romans 6:22; 1 Thessalonians 4:7; 1 Timothy 2:15; Hebrews 12:14, is always rendered "sanctification" in the RV. It signifies
(a) separation to God, 1 Corinthians 1:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:2;

Note: The corresponding verb hagiazo denotes "to set apart to God." See HALLOW, SANCTIFY.

[ B-1,Adjective,G40, hagios ]
(a) in Scripture in its moral and spiritual significance, separated from sin and therefore consecrated to God, sacred.

(b) It is used of men and things (See below) in so far as they are devoted to God. Indeed the quality, as attributed to God, is often presented in a way which involves Divine demands upon the conduct of believers. These are called hagioi, "saints," i.e., "sanctified" or "holy" ones.

MY NOTE: The word holy in reference to a believer is synonymous with saint/righteous sanctified/set apart for a work.

When any sinner/person places their FAITH in Jesus sin atoning death, burial & resurrection.

They are Saved/Justified by a sovereign God = Judicially declared Righteous & forever free from all sins punitive punishments demanded under Mosaic law, And every believer is FREELY given (void of any personal works) the GIFT of eternal life.

Saved/justified/righteousness & sanctification/holiness are all a one time simultaneous event. When Christ baptizes the believer with His indwelling Holy Spirit, this FREE GIFT is given via Faith & not worked for/earned.

At the moment of conversion Christ claims/covers/seals the believer with His Holy Spirit of protection & freely gives the believer eternal life.

At that moment of conversion the believer is forever: Saved/justified/righteousness, it's a DONE DEAL! Sanctification/holiness are also a DONE DEAL, yet, they are also a continuing process.

You're salvation/justification sets you apart/sanctifies you for a particular Godly life's work within Christ's Body.

Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
(MY NOTE: We are set apart by the faith OF Christ & our faith in His work. Also see - Rom 3:22, Gal 2:16, 2:20, 3:22, Phil 3:9 for more on the faith OF Christ)

1 Cor 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

1 Cor 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
(MY NOTE: Washed/saved/justified/declared righteousness/sanctified thru FAITH placed in the ALL authoritative name & work of Christ)

Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
(MY NOTE: Faith placed in Jesus once for all time sin atoning death & resurrection FOREVER makes us sinless & perfect)

Jud 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
(MY NOTE: Believer thru FAITH & faith alone in Christ's sin atoning death, burial & resurrection are set apart/made holy & FOREVER PRESERVED by our Great God & Savior Jesus the Christ. AMEN & amen!)

fhansen said:

Of course it’s a gift, like faith, that we can accept or reject. To the extent that we accept and run with it, “investing our talents”, we do God’s will.

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So after we accept the gift, if we don't love others, we would have deemed to have rejected the gift?