Female ordination

Strong in Him · Jun 15, 2021

Root of Jesse said:
Then why are there all these many interpretations about who Jesus is, what he meant by what he said, and so on?

I would say that either people have their own agendas - like cult leaders - or they read, and explain, the Bible differently.

For example, Jesus was God in the flesh; absolutely. But how do we explain that God died?
It's almost impossible - so some people come up with theories; e.g that Jesus stopped being divine before he was taken to the cross. The Trinity is not at all eay to understand; so again, some people come up with different explanations. And then there are those who read the Bible literally, see that Jesus was God's Son and say "well a Father is superior to a son", so they demote Jesus to an angel, or something similar.

Root of Jesse said:
I don't see anywhere in Scripture where Jesus had any women among his apostles.

The term "Apostles" is most commonly used of the 12, but not only them.
Apollos, Timothy, Barnabas etc etc were Apostles. The word means "sent". Anyone who has been sent by God is an apostle - there is one verse where this word is used to refer to all believers.

And none of the 12 were Gentiles either - what does that tell you?

Root of Jesse said:
But no leadership, and by that, I mean hierarchy.

Jesus had no "hierarchy"; none of the 12 were leaders when they were with him.
When they quarrelled amongst themselves about who was the greatest, Jesus said that if anyone wanted to be first, they must be last and the least of all, Mark 9:33-35.
When James and John tried to lobby him for the highest places in heaven, he said that was not for him to grant, and if they wanted to be great among them, they must serve everyone else, Mark 10:42-44.

If you were going to make a case for anyone being great, it would be Mary Magdalene - specifically chosen to be the first witness to the risen Christ and to tell others (the men) who were hiding in fear.

Root of Jesse said:
If you believe everything Jesus said and did, you would believe he meant what he said and said what he meant.

I do.
I don't accept your interpretation of it.

Root of Jesse said:
He prayed that His Church might be One, as the Father and He are one.

Practically speaking, we are not one at all; there is much division. And I'm not just thinking of my earlier example.
Anglicans do not recognise Methodist local preachers when I re-joined the church a few years back, I would have had to train all over again if I'd wanted to be accepted as an Anglican lay reader, (and the church didn't need any more preachers, so they wouldn't let me. So I went back to the church that did recognise and respect my calling.) Methodists, in turn, don't recognise anyone who has not followed the Methodist training - and heaven help any worship leader who tries to speak on a Bible passage or to bring God's word, and who hasn't been trained to do so. Some evangelicals (not on here) have said that whoever does not speak in tongues is not a Christian. Some have condemned those who do not tithe, keep the laws etc etc. There is far too much in-fighting in all sections of the church - and people wonder why non Christians aren't falling over themselves to join us.

BUT, there is only one Gospel. And I am certain that if we were facing persecution and the question was "are you are Christian/do you worship Jesus; yes or no?" there would be dead Christians of ALL denominations. In that sense; we are one.

Root of Jesse said:
He told his followers that they must eat His flesh and drink His blood in order to have eternal life.

And we all do. What's the problem; we don't do it the Catholic way?

Root of Jesse said:
He also told his apostles that he must rise into heaven, and that when he did that, he would send the Paraclete to guide them into all Truth.

Yes, and we can, and many have, received the Spirit who guides us into all truth.

Root of Jesse said:
We, Catholics, at least faithful ones, believe that everything Jesus said is true, how he meant them.

Implying that no Catholics don't?

concretecamper · Jun 15, 2021

rturner76 said:
That's not true anymore but many Catholics still hold to the old ways. Here is what the Catechism says about salvation outside the Church. It basically says, if you are baptized you are a member of the body of christ The CHurch. It even says those who seek God with a sincere heart may also find salvation.

"Outside the Church, there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? 335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. 336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. 337

it is a pity that most protestants don't know what these words mean. In my experience, they simply take this as all are saved. I guess for protestants, reading the CCC is sort of like reading the bible, I'll interpret it the way I want.

Paidiske · Jun 15, 2021

Root of Jesse said:
That tells me that this is something Jesus taught them.

As I said, speculation.

Root of Jesse said:
I have shown otherwise.

No, you really haven't. Most of your disagreement with points I make amounts to, "I know better than you," without being able to back it up with Scripture or other sources.

Root of Jesse said:
You merely think that majority, if such exists, should mean something.

Not exactly. I raised the question of the sensus fidei not because I think majority in and of itself is the answer to anything, but because when we can see, in the church, the hierarchy trying to impose a set of beliefs which the faithful consistently reject, that raises questions about the reception and the validity of that teaching.

Hmm · Jun 16, 2021

Root of Jesse said:
No. I believe that my Church has all truth. Scripture says so.

Do you think it's true though, in general, that we, no matter what our church or even our religion, don't really know for sure that our particular beliefs are true but nevertheless we have to make some kind of practical commitment to the validity of our beliefs? So we are saying something like "I don't know with absolute certainty that my beliefs are true but for me to make a proper commitment to God I have to believe and trust that they are"? This allows us to have a commitment to God and come to know Him but without claiming we understand Him completely or better than anyone else.

Root of Jesse · Jun 17, 2021

Paidiske said:
As I said, speculation.

No, you really haven't. Most of your disagreement with points I make amounts to, "I know better than you," without being able to back it up with Scripture or other sources.

Not exactly. I raised the question of the sensus fidei not because I think majority in and of itself is the answer to anything, but because when we can see, in the church, the hierarchy trying to impose a set of beliefs which the faithful consistently reject, that raises questions about the reception and the validity of that teaching.

The hierarchy hasn't imposed anything. Jesus did. And since we profess to follow Jesus, we live as he did. You say that what I say is pure speculation, but yet, where did this idea come from? It was within a couple days of Jesus' resurrection that the apostles layed hands on Matthias. They got this from somewhere. If you believe this amounts to "I know better than you", as I've said over and over, it's not about what I think. It's about what the Church teaches. We follow Jesus, Jesus didn't have any female apostles, therefore the Church declared that we don't have any authority to ordain women into priesthood.

Root of Jesse · Jun 17, 2021

Hmm said:
Do you think it's true though, in general, that we, no matter what our church or even our religion, don't really know for sure that our particular beliefs are true but nevertheless we have to make some kind of practical commitment to the validity of our beliefs? So we are saying something like "I don't know with absolute certainty that my beliefs are true but for me to make a proper commitment to God I have to believe and trust that they are"? This allows us to have a commitment to God and come to know Him but without claiming we understand Him completely or better than anyone else.

Well, yeah, I think you Protestants do believe that, and I have no issue with what you believe. Ya'll believe so many different things, some believing abortion is ok, some believing female ordination is ok, etc. You can believe what you want.
The reason we believe what we believe comes from the very followers of Christ themselves, to whom Jesus said "I will send the Holy Spirit to guide you in all truth." The apostles taught others, and we believe they passed on the faith, um, faithfully. And that the Holy Spirit prevents His Church from error based on this Scripture.

Strong in Him · Jun 17, 2021

Root of Jesse said:
The reason we believe what we believe comes from the very followers of Christ themselves, to whom Jesus said "I will send the Holy Spirit to guide you in all truth."

Yes, THE church is Apostolic.
The Gospel and Christian doctrine are found in Scripture - any books that were not thought to be from the Apostles, or faithful to their teaching, were not included in Scripture.

Root of Jesse said:
The apostles taught others, and we believe they passed on the faith, um, faithfully. And that the Holy Spirit prevents His Church from error based on this Scripture.

The Holy Spirit prevents any error in the Gospel which reveals God and shows the way of salvation. The Spirit is given to Catholics and Protestants alike; he is not confined to one group of people only.

Are you implying that Protestants don't have the Holy Spirit?

Hmm · Jun 17, 2021

Root of Jesse said:
Ya'll believe so many different things, some believing abortion is ok, some believing female ordination is ok, etc. You can believe what you want.

Root of Jesse said:
Jesus said "I will send the Holy Spirit to guide you in all truth."

These are different uses of the word "you" unless you're claiming that the Holy Spirit is constrained to work only inside your church, a point which has just been made above. Does this seem very likely to you?

Hmm · Jun 17, 2021

Root of Jesse said:
as I've said over and over, it's not about what I think. It's about what the Church teaches.

But it is what you think. I could say what the Catholic church teaches and I'd be saying exactly what you say. So you're not just saying that, you're saying in addition that you believe that all these teachings are correct. And this is a personal belief statement that you are making - something that doesn't have the status of absolute truth.

Root of Jesse · Jun 17, 2021

Strong in Him said:
Yes, THE church is Apostolic.
The Gospel and Christian doctrine are found in Scripture - any books that were not thought to be from the Apostles, or faithful to their teaching, were not included in Scripture.

There is no doctrine in Scripture. Also wrong is your idea of how Scripture was put together. There were lots of books thought to be from the apostles or faithful to their teachings which were not included in Scripture.
But yes. THE Church is Apostolic. It is debatable whether many Protestant churches are actually Apostolic. But there was only one Church at the time.

The Holy Spirit prevents any error in the Gospel which reveals God and shows the way of salvation. The Spirit is given to Catholics and Protestants alike; he is not confined to one group of people only.

No, the Holy Spirit prevents any error in the teaching of the faith. The Holy Spirit was involved in the decision of what the Gospels were, and He gave that decision to His Church.
What I contest in your last statement is how you know whether the Holy Spirit is working with you, or not. Lots of people can say that the Spirit is guiding them, but there is no way for them to really know.

Are you implying that Protestants don't have the Holy Spirit?

Are you putting words in my mouth?

Root of Jesse · Jun 17, 2021

Hmm said:
These are different uses of the word "you" unless you're claiming that the Holy Spirit is constrained to work only inside your church, a point which has just been made above. Does this seem very likely to you?

Jesus was speaking directly to His apostles,

Root of Jesse · Jun 17, 2021

Hmm said:
But it is what you think. I could say what the Catholic church teaches and I'd be saying exactly what you say. So you're not just saying that, you're saying in addition that you believe that all these teachings are correct. And this is a personal belief statement that you are making - something that doesn't have the status of absolute truth.

What the Church teaches is absolute Truth. I don't believe there is such a thing as 'your truth' and 'my truth' when it comes to faith.
I am a convert. I was many different flavors of Protestant. As I grew up, my family journeyed from one to another for such reasons as some person my mom didn't like was admitted to membership, or the pastor said such-and-such, or just 'this feels like a good place to land'. That was never right to me, but as a child, I was helpless to make those choices. I felt like, if it's so easy to bounce from one to another, why would any of them be 'the right church'? When I decided to buckle down and be a Christian, I examined lots of them, some I had 'belonged' to before, and some I had not. I went to Catholic school in my teens, but the kids were so horrible, I had thought I would never be a Catholic. In my examination, I came to realize that faith in Jesus was what was important, and gravitated to those Churches where Jesus is truly present, physically-Orthodox, Anglican, Catholic. Studying the history of the Church pushed me away from Anglicanism. In further research, I came to Catholicism, and embraced what the Church teaches, which is what Jesus and His apostles and disciples taught. Which is why I say it's not about what I think.
Of course, it's my opinion that the Catholic Church is right, but it is not about what I think.

Strong in Him · Jun 17, 2021

Root of Jesse said:
There is no doctrine in Scripture.

Scripture is where we get our doctrine from.
God is a Trinity. How do we know? Scripture teaches it, (though not actually using the word Trinity.)
The eternal Word was with God in the beginning and became flesh, a baby called Jesus, so Jesus is both God and man. How do we know? Scripture says so.
Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, the Good Shepherd who willingly lay down his life for the sheep, and has reconciled us to God by his death. How do we know? Scripture says so.
Jesus was raised from the dead, ascended to his Father and sent his Holy Spirit to live IN believers. How do we know? Scripture says so.

Where would we get our faith and doctrine if not from Scripture?

Root of Jesse said:
There were lots of books thought to be from the apostles or faithful to their teachings which were not included in Scripture.

Maybe there were. But the ones that were included in Scripture were there because they were written by apostles, people close to apostles or contained, or were faithful to, apostolic teaching. So if you had a church that had fervently believed that Jesus had said X, the test would have been, "is that what the apostles taught?" The Holy Spirit DID guide them into all truth when they wrote the Gospels/NT. And that is not a Catholic thing; many Christians accept the authority of the apostles.

Root of Jesse said:
But yes. THE Church is Apostolic. It is debatable whether many Protestant churches are actually Apostolic.

THE church is all believers.
What evidence is there for saying that many protestant churches may not be apostolic?

Root of Jesse said:
No, the Holy Spirit prevents any error in the teaching of the faith.

Of course he does.
The Christian faith = Christianity; those from all cultures, countries and denominations who follow Christ, are IN Christ and whom the Holy Spirit is transforming to be like Christ, 2 Corinthians 3:18.

Catholicism is not a faith; it is part of, and one group within, the Christian faith.
That's why I get annoyed with, and defend your church from, folk who claim that the Pope is the anti Christ/Catholics are satanic, or idol worshippers, or that anyone who goes to that church is associated with the beast. Members of the Catholic church who are born again, believers and children of God are my brothers and sisters in Christ - we have ONE heavenly Father. I don't know why some Catholics seem unable to say the same about protestants - saying instead that we do not have all the truth, go to apostate churches etc; but that is between them and God. They will have to answer for that; I won't.

Root of Jesse said:
What I contest in your last statement is how you know whether the Holy Spirit is working with you, or not.

I know - I am not sure how I could prove it to you; any more than you could prove to me that you love your spouse and trusts that they want the best for you. Or that your children trust you and that you are able to steer them onto the right paths in life, away from things that are harmful and bad for them.

Root of Jesse said:
Lots of people can say that the Spirit is guiding them, but there is no way for them to really know.

Yes, there is - if we pray and are honestly seeking God's will and not our own, and if we trust that as a perfect heavenly Father he will not give us a snake when we ask him for fish.

Root of Jesse said:
Are you putting words in my mouth?

I was asking you a question.

You said that what you believe comes from the apostles themselves, to whom Jesus said "the Spirit will guide you into all truth."
You have made it clear that when you talk about THE church, you mean the catholic church. You, and/or other Catholics, have said that this was the church that Jesus founded. And some HAVE said that other churches are not true churches or do not have all the truth.
So if you believe the Spirit guided the apostles into ALL truth, and other churches do not have ALL the truth - and by your admission you are not even sure that they are apostolic; do other churches have the Spirit?
Not an accusation; a logical conclusion to your argument.

pescador · Jun 17, 2021

Strong in Him said:
Scripture is where we get our doctrine from.
God is a Trinity. How do we know? Scripture teaches it, (though not actually using the word Trinity.)
The eternal Word was with God in the beginning and became flesh, a baby called Jesus, so Jesus is both God and man. How do we know? Scripture says so.
Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, the Good Shepherd who willingly lay down his life for the sheep, and has reconciled us to God by his death. How do we know? Scripture says so.
Jesus was raised from the dead, ascended to his Father and sent his Holy Spirit to live IN believers. How do we know? Scripture says so.

Where would we get our faith and doctrine if not from Scripture?

Maybe there were. But the ones that were included in Scripture were there because they were written by apostles, people close to apostles or contained, or were faithful to, apostolic teaching. So if you had a church that had fervently believed that Jesus had said X, the test would have been, "is that what the apostles taught?" The Holy Spirit DID guide them into all truth when they wrote the Gospels/NT. And that is not a Catholic thing; many Christians accept the authority of the apostles.

THE church is all believers.
What evidence is there for saying that many protestant churches may not be apostolic?

Of course he does.
The Christian faith = Christianity; those from all cultures, countries and denominations who follow Christ, are IN Christ and whom the Holy Spirit is transforming to be like Christ, 2 Corinthians 3:18.

Catholicism is not a faith; it is part of, and one group within, the Christian faith.
That's why I get annoyed with, and defend your church from, folk who claim that the Pope is the anti Christ/Catholics are satanic, or idol worshippers, or that anyone who goes to that church is associated with the beast. Members of the Catholic church who are born again, believers and children of God are my brothers and sisters in Christ - we have ONE heavenly Father. I don't know why some Catholics seem unable to say the same about protestants - saying instead that we do not have all the truth, go to apostate churches etc; but that is between them and God. They will have to answer for that; I won't.

I know - I am not sure how I could prove it to you; any more than you could prove to me that you love your spouse and trusts that they want the best for you. Or that your children trust you and that you are able to steer them onto the right paths in life, away from things that are harmful and bad for them.

Yes, there is - if we pray and are honestly seeking God's will and not our own, and if we trust that as a perfect heavenly Father he will not give us a snake when we ask him for fish.

I was asking you a question.

You said that what you believe comes from the apostles themselves, to whom Jesus said "the Spirit will guide you into all truth."
You have made it clear that when you talk about THE church, you mean the catholic church. You, and/or other Catholics, have said that this was the church that Jesus founded. And some HAVE said that other churches are not true churches or do not have all the truth.
So if you believe the Spirit guided the apostles into ALL truth, and other churches do not have ALL the truth - and by your admission you are not even sure that they are apostolic; do other churches have the Spirit?
Not an accusation; a logical conclusion to your argument.

This is an absolutely fabulous post!

Strong in Him · Jun 17, 2021

pescador said:
This is an absolutely fabulous post!

Thank you. :hug:

Paidiske · Jun 17, 2021

Root of Jesse said:
The hierarchy hasn't imposed anything.

It's hard for me to believe that when I see the deep dissatisfaction with the situation on the ground.

Root of Jesse said:
Jesus didn't have any female apostles, therefore the Church declared that we don't have any authority to ordain women into priesthood.

Part of the problem with this is the inconsistency. The Church does many things Jesus never did, and is quite content that it has the authority to do so; so why is this the thing on which the Church is so quick to declare it doesn't have any authority? It's hard not to suspect that there are other issues in play.

Root of Jesse said:
There is no doctrine in Scripture.

As to how we know whether the Holy Spirit is at work in and through someone, it's by the fruit. Do we see that person growing in holiness, in love, in joy, in peace? Do we see them encouraging that growth in those around them? If so, it would be a brave person who concludes that the Spirit is absent.

pescador · Jun 17, 2021

Root of Jesse said:
The hierarchy hasn't imposed anything. Jesus did. And since we profess to follow Jesus, we live as he did. You say that what I say is pure speculation, but yet, where did this idea come from? It was within a couple days of Jesus' resurrection that the apostles layed hands on Matthias. They got this from somewhere. If you believe this amounts to "I know better than you", as I've said over and over, it's not about what I think. It's about what the Church teaches. We follow Jesus, Jesus didn't have any female apostles, therefore the Church declared that we don't have any authority to ordain women into priesthood.

"Jesus didn't have any female apostles, therefore the Church declared that we don't have any authority to ordain women into priesthood." That is some strange logic!

1) Jesus did have devoted women who followed Him, served Him, and were the first to discover his arising from the dead.
2) Paul refers in several places to women who had churches in their homes, prophesied, and had various gifts of the Spirit.
3) Ordaining anyone, regardless of gender, into "the priesthood" conflicts with the New Covenant. All Christians are priests. 1 Peter 2:9-10, "But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people of his own, so that you may proclaim the virtues of the one who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. You once were not a people, but now you are God’s people. You were shown no mercy, but now you have received mercy." There is no discrimination by gender here.

Root of Jesse · Jun 21, 2021

Strong in Him said:
Scripture is where we get our doctrine from.

This is not the same thing as "Scripture contains doctrine." For example, using what you posted below, the doctrine of the Trinity is not in Scripture, though we see the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in Scripture, certainly.
I will repeat, though, there is no doctrine in Sacred Scripture.

God is a Trinity. How do we know? Scripture teaches it, (though not actually using the word Trinity.)
The eternal Word was with God in the beginning and became flesh, a baby called Jesus, so Jesus is both God and man. How do we know? Scripture says so.

While I agree completely with what you're saying, it is not from Scripture. Why? Because there are several groups who don't believe that the Trinity is Scriptural. Some say we believe in 3 Gods. There are a lot of other doctrines that some groups don't see in Scripture, either. There were groups who believed Jesus wasn't God, wasn't human, wasn't fully God and fully human, and so on. All with the same Scripture.

Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, the Good Shepherd who willingly lay down his life for the sheep, and has reconciled us to God by his death. How do we know? Scripture says so.
Jesus was raised from the dead, ascended to his Father and sent his Holy Spirit to live IN believers. How do we know? Scripture says so.

Where would we get our faith and doctrine if not from Scripture?

Faith and doctrine do not come from Scripture. The elements are there, but not the doctrine.

Maybe there were. But the ones that were included in Scripture were there because they were written by apostles, people close to apostles or contained, or were faithful to, apostolic teaching. So if you had a church that had fervently believed that Jesus had said X, the test would have been, "is that what the apostles taught?" The Holy Spirit DID guide them into all truth when they wrote the Gospels/NT. And that is not a Catholic thing; many Christians accept the authority of the apostles.

There is even doubt about who wrote the Gospels, or the letters, etc. So I don't believe that's an answer to anything. Scripture became Scripture because the Catholic Church used those particular books in liturgy. Jesus's sending the Spirit was not a time limited thing, so don't know what that's about. And I never said only Catholics have the Spirit, but I do believe you non-Catholics have a tough time proving it to anyone. Even Catholics have a tough time, but we have authorities who do know.

THE church is all believers.
What evidence is there for saying that many protestant churches may not be apostolic?

Who founded the Methodist/Baptist/AOG/etc.?

Of course he does.
The Christian faith = Christianity; those from all cultures, countries and denominations who follow Christ, are IN Christ and whom the Holy Spirit is transforming to be like Christ, 2 Corinthians 3:18.

And yet your faith differs from Baptist faith differs from Catholic faith. There is only one faith, only one Baptism, only one Lord. The response to it is the whole (Catholic), or parts of it (non-Catholic).

Catholicism is not a faith; it is part of, and one group within, the Christian faith.

Gee, thanks, at least you don't call us non-Christian.

That's why I get annoyed with, and defend your church from, folk who claim that the Pope is the anti Christ/Catholics are satanic, or idol worshippers, or that anyone who goes to that church is associated with the beast. Members of the Catholic church who are born again, believers and children of God are my brothers and sisters in Christ - we have ONE heavenly Father. I don't know why some Catholics seem unable to say the same about protestants - saying instead that we do not have all the truth, go to apostate churches etc; but that is between them and God. They will have to answer for that; I won't.

There are Catholics who believe we haven't had a pope for decades, so I shrug at those, and those you mention. All Baptized Catholics are born again. I totally believe you're Christian, I have no problem saying that, and I recognize where we believe the same or similar things. And cherish that.

I know - I am not sure how I could prove it to you; any more than you could prove to me that you love your spouse and trusts that they want the best for you. Or that your children trust you and that you are able to steer them onto the right paths in life, away from things that are harmful and bad for them.

There are outward signs that show others my love for my spouse and children. I don't know if there's the same thing with the Holy Spirit.

Yes, there is - if we pray and are honestly seeking God's will and not our own, and if we trust that as a perfect heavenly Father he will not give us a snake when we ask him for fish.

I was asking you a question.

You said that what you believe comes from the apostles themselves, to whom Jesus said "the Spirit will guide you into all truth."
You have made it clear that when you talk about THE church, you mean the catholic church. You, and/or other Catholics, have said that this was the church that Jesus founded. And some HAVE said that other churches are not true churches or do not have all the truth.
So if you believe the Spirit guided the apostles into ALL truth, and other churches do not have ALL the truth - and by your admission you are not even sure that they are apostolic; do other churches have the Spirit?
Not an accusation; a logical conclusion to your argument.

OK, I will ask you, then. John 6 is our basis for the believe that Jesus is really present today in the Eucharistic bread and wine. This is one of the Truths Jesus gave the apostles, one they passed down. You don't believe the same thing.
Another, we believe that Baptism saves us. You don't. So, if these two examples were taught by the apostles to the faithful, among others, and you don't believe they are what the apostles said they are, how can you say you have the whole Truth?

Fidelibus · Jun 21, 2021

Root of Jesse said:
This is not the same thing as "Scripture contains doctrine." For example, using what you posted below, the doctrine of the Trinity is not in Scripture, though we see the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in Scripture, certainly.
I will repeat, though, there is no doctrine in Sacred Scripture.While I agree completely with what you're saying, it is not from Scripture. Why? Because there are several groups who don't believe that the Trinity is Scriptural. Some say we believe in 3 Gods. There are a lot of other doctrines that some groups don't see in Scripture, either. There were groups who believed Jesus wasn't God, wasn't human, wasn't fully God and fully human, and so on. All with the same Scripture.Faith and doctrine do not come from Scripture. The elements are there, but not the doctrine.There is even doubt about who wrote the Gospels, or the letters, etc. So I don't believe that's an answer to anything. Scripture became Scripture because the Catholic Church used those particular books in liturgy. Jesus's sending the Spirit was not a time limited thing, so don't know what that's about. And I never said only Catholics have the Spirit, but I do believe you non-Catholics have a tough time proving it to anyone. Even Catholics have a tough time, but we have authorities who do know.Who founded the Methodist/Baptist/AOG/etc.? And yet your faith differs from Baptist faith differs from Catholic faith. There is only one faith, only one Baptism, only one Lord. The response to it is the whole (Catholic), or parts of it (non-Catholic).Gee, thanks, at least you don't call us non-Christian.There are Catholics who believe we haven't had a pope for decades, so I shrug at those, and those you mention. All Baptized Catholics are born again. I totally believe you're Christian, I have no problem saying that, and I recognize where we believe the same or similar things. And cherish that.There are outward signs that show others my love for my spouse and children. I don't know if there's the same thing with the Holy Spirit.
OK, I will ask you, then. John 6 is our basis for the believe that Jesus is really present today in the Eucharistic bread and wine. This is one of the Truths Jesus gave the apostles, one they passed down. You don't believe the same thing.
Another, we believe that Baptism saves us. You don't. So, if these two examples were taught by the apostles to the faithful, among others, and you don't believe they are what the apostles said they are, how can you say you have the whole Truth?

I must say Root of Jesse, while following yours and Strong in Him' discussion, this is absolutely a very informative post!!

Have a Blessed Day!

Root of Jesse · Jun 22, 2021

pescador said:
"Jesus didn't have any female apostles, therefore the Church declared that we don't have any authority to ordain women into priesthood." That is some strange logic!

I'm sure you're aware that St. Paul said that, to those who don't believe, the Cross is folly. So I understand how you, who have not the same faith as me, would say that the logic is strange. But we profess to follow Jesus, Jesus didn't have any female apostles, He gave His authority to those apostles, therefore, we don't ordain women to the priesthood. It's very logical.

1) Jesus did have devoted women who followed Him, served Him, and were the first to discover his arising from the dead.

As do we Catholics. We have female Doctors of the Church, nuns, and most Catholic educators.

2) Paul refers in several places to women who had churches in their homes, prophesied, and had various gifts of the Spirit.

No doubt. But this doesn't equate to priests.

3) Ordaining anyone, regardless of gender, into "the priesthood" conflicts with the New Covenant. All Christians are priests. 1 Peter 2:9-10, "But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people of his own, so that you may proclaim the virtues of the one who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. You once were not a people, but now you are God’s people. You were shown no mercy, but now you have received mercy." There is no discrimination by gender here.

There is a difference between the ministerial priesthood which is the subject, and the priesthood you're talking about, and it does not conflict with the new covenant.

Female ordination

Great is thy faithfulness

Member of His Church

Clara bonam audax

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Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord

Great is thy faithfulness

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord

Great is thy faithfulness

Wise old man

Great is thy faithfulness

Clara bonam audax

Wise old man

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord

Well-Known Member

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord

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