What is the role of art in the Christian life?

Eftsoon

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es, absolutely, because this refines the abilities of the artist. Some of the best composers of sacred music, such as Byrd, Palestrina, Bach, Bortniansky, Handel, Haydn, Schubert, and Chesnokov, also composed secular works, sometimes in large quantities. Rachmaninoff’s setting of the Divine Liturgy and the All Night Vigil is beloved, deservedly so, and he was primarily a secular music composer, but a man with a deep faith

I think you might find the holy minimalists of interest. Part, Tavener and Goreckin are the three most renowned. Part resonates me with on a deep deep level. His music is all about space, silence, breath and contemplation. Fratres shows his mastery of musical space.

Fratres

Sacred music is alive and well today. There's been a discovery in the jazz scene too.Jan Garbarek is a notable example.

Parce Mihi Domine
 
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The Liturgist

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Nice to hear that, thanks for sharing it. No doubt there are images in pictures etc of heavenly things as also there were images of angels on the curtains in the OT sanctuary and Angel statues on the ark of the covenant in the most holy place.

But they were not allowed to "bow down before them, or serve them" as in the angel beings that they represented or the images/pictures etc. So then we would not bow down before a picture of Christ - yet such pictures are helpful in directing our thoughts toward Him.

In the Adventist church you can find a lot of pictures of 3 angels blowing trumpets outside of Earth's Atmosphere to symbolize Rev 14 and its three angel's messages.

Very interesting. Now, a major reason why the veneration of an icon does not itself strike me as a problem is because of the veneration shown to the Ark of the Covenant by the Jews in antiquity, and later by the Ethiopians after it was taken by Prince Solomon (the son of King Solomon and the Queen of Sheba, and the first Emperor of Ethiopia in the Solomonic dynasty), which continues until the present (assuming the Ark the Ethiopian Orthodox Church has is the real one; I believe it is because of mysterious thermal damage that reportedly occurred in a church that formerly housed it, which was built by the martyred Emperor Haile Selassie, who the Derg communists strangled for refusing to convert to atheism; the same thing happened to Tsar Nicholas, his wife and children in Yektarinenberg in 1918 for the same reason, which is why they are venerated as saints in their respective churches - at any rate the ark had to be moved from there to a small single story house built of reinforced concrete blocks, and only one monk is allowed to access it; he lives in the hermitage with the ark permanently and food etc is passed through the window).

My Patristics-based interpretation of the Biblical requirements on the avoidance of idolatry when venerating icons, the important thing is that adoration and sacrificial service (latria) is due to God alone. This also applies even in our relationship with other human beings. So if I kiss an icon of Jesus Christ, or a Bible, which is also an icon of Jesus Christ, or my pectoral cross, I am venerating the image of God, who I adore, but I am not offering adoration or sacrifice to the image. Indeed when iconoclasm erupted, there emerged a heretical group of iconolatrians who would worship the icons in violation of the second commandment, by, for example, chipping paint off an icon and putting it in the chalice of wine to be consecrated in the Eucharist, and this group was anathematized at the Second Council of Nicea in 787 AD, along with the iconoclasts.

This is a fairly classical problem, in that when one heretical cult appears, another with opposite beliefs will appear to rival it. For example, before Nestorius, you had Apollinarius, and after Nestorius, you had Eutyches and the tritheist monophysites (not to be confused with the Oriental Orthodox churches, which have never actually been monophysite and which also excommunicated Eutyches for heresy roughly at the same time as the Chalcedonian churches); that sect later died off, and the last prominent tritheist Eutychian I can think of was an Alexandrian Greek philosopher, John Philoponus, in the mid sixth century. But today, we have a juxtaposition between Arians like the Jehovah’s witnesses, crypto-Gnostics like Christian Science, and neo-Sabellians in the form of Oneness Pentecostals, and then there is the murky realm of “post-Christian” Unitarian Universalist theology.*

For example, one could interpret the Westboro Baptist Church as a reaction to the capitulation of several mainline Protestant denominations to secular demands regarding sexual morality. Or in antiquity, we have the Antidicomarians, who refused to venerate Mary, and the Collyridians, who worshipped her as a goddess, and this has actually come back, because at present some small churches on the fringe have actively, inappropriately negative attitudes towards the Theotokos, which are counterscriptural, and conversely, there is a heretical schismatic breakaway from the Roman Catholic Church called the Palmarian Catholic Church, which is based in a small town in Andalusia, and has an elaborate, walled off cathedral, monastery and living compound inside; this cult actually engages in Mariology; they have their own Popes, the first of whom routinely would “receive” dramatic revelations in which, in view of as many members as possible, he would fall to his knees, and on the basis of these visions they went from a group that initially appeared to be like the SSPX, a traditional Latin mass community, to a group which scrapped the traditional Latin mass except for the words of institution, which believes that the Virgin Mary is actually physically present in the Eucharist, and which, on the basis of revelations to their founder, modified several books of the Bible.

The Roman Catholic Church has done a very good job alerting people to this sect, and a few years ago an excellent documentary on it was produced on Irish television (many of the victims of the cult are Irish nationals). This sect I don’t think is Christian according to the Statement of Faith for CF.com, because they have modified everything and the Nicene Creed and Statement of Faith would be completely violated by actually worshipping Mary as a goddess. The Palmarian church has a fantastic amount of money; their current Pope, Peter III, wears vestments which look vaguely like those historically worn by popes before John Paul I (the Papal tiara, and other things), but with the addition of a tacky excess of ornamentation; I can only describe the Palmarians clergy, especially their Pope, as wearing heavily modified, over-the-top Liberace-style rip offs of the beautiful traditional vestments of Western Christianity and Roman Catholicism, with the chief difference being, if you will pardon the expression, the addition of what I could only call “bling bling.” No Christian church has ever gone over the top with their vestments to the point where I could accuse them of having “bling bling”; its a bit like if the Bhagwan, the cult leader whose red-uniformed hippie followers tried to take over a county in rural Oregon in the 1980s and engaged in the first ever bio terror attack, was trying to pass himself off as a Christian rather than as a Hindu (when he was neither; as bad as Hinduism can be, the followers of Hindu gurus are not known for bio-terror attacks; Netflix aired a very good documentary about that cult in 2019; the same people I believe were responsible for a more recent HBO documentary on the Heaven’s Gate cult which was also well made, but tragic).

*As I see it @BobRyan , you and I, as traditional Christians in denominations of traditional faith have a vocation to promote the fundamental tenets of Christianity, like the moral code found in the Old Testament, so that we can encourage some of the mainline churches which are having internal political problems, including my former stomping ground, to stick with the faith and not turn into something like the Unitarian Universalist Association.
 
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anna ~ grace

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Do you believe it should play a central role, or do you think that it is one of many of life's dimensions?
I think art should pray us nearer to Christ, and be beautiful. Something I love about the Catholic Church and Orthodoxy is the huge role that sacred artwork, icons, and the beauty of church buildings plays in drawing the soul near to God. And teaching us what He is like. And teaching us what we should become.

the-annunciation-1680.jpg
 
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BobRyan

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Very interesting. Now, a major reason why the veneration of an icon does not itself strike me as a problem is because of the veneration shown to the Ark of the Covenant by the Jews in antiquity,

God said "4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. "

So then - they were never commanded to bow down before the ark of the covenant by God - nor to serve it.

Nor were they to bow down to the images if angels nor promise to serve the angels.

The shekinah glory of the presence of God was in the sanctuary - so God Himself present - so bowing in the direction of the Most Holy Pace where the shekinah glory was - could not be an act specifically singling out the ark or the image of angels in the sanctuary.
 
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The Liturgist

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I think you might find the holy minimalists of interest. Part, Tavener and Goreckin are the three most renowned. Part resonates me with on a deep deep level. His music is all about space, silence, breath and contemplation. Fratres shows his mastery of musical space.

Fratres

Sacred music is alive and well today. There's been a discovery in the jazz scene too.Jan Garbarek is a notable example.

Parce Mihi Domine

I absolutely love the music of Avro Part; in fact, I have a complete collection. I am not familiar, to my chagrin, with Goreckin, but I will look into his work. Avro Part is an Estonian Orthodox Christian who has composed beautiful music that is in some cases based on Western Christian constructs, such as his Stabat Mater, Berlin Mass, Missa Sylabicus, and my favorite works of his, the Summa and Te Deum, and in other cases is based on Eastern Orthodox music, for example, his setting of hymns from the Triodion, which is the Eastern Orthodox hymnal for Lent.

Now, regarding John Taverner, memory eternal, he reposed a few years ago (interestingly there was also a Renaissance era English composer by the same name), and like Avro Part, was an Eastern Orthodox Christian, but I believe Avro Part was a “cradle Orthodox” and Taverner is a member of the ever-growing number of Orthodox who a Russian friend of mine jokingly calls “Conwertsy.” Now, I haven’t yet been able to get into his music, but it sometimes takes a bit of time for me to get into particularly brilliant music which is different from what I am accustomed to; I would cite three examples where I have acclimatized gradually as being the three voiced polyphonic music of the Georgian Orthodox Church, the music of the great Anglican composer Herbert Howells, and the congregational Church Slavonic and English chant known as Prostopinije, which is the traditional music of the Carpatho-Rusyn people and related ethnicities, such as the Lemkos of Poland; these people tend either to be Byzantine Catholics or Eastern Orthodox (Andy Warhol was a Lemko member of the Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church).

There is a contemporary Ukrainian Catholic composer whose work contains Carpatho-Rusyn musical influences, Roman Hurko, who has composed a setting of All Night Vigils, two settings of the Divine Liturgy in Church Slavonic, one in English, Matins for Good Friday, and a Requiem (Pannikhida) for the victims of the Chernobyl disaster.

I loved his work the first time I heard it, and the same is true of Avro Part, but I have found that whether or not I enjoy music in the long run is not at all related to how long it took me to cultivate an appreciation for it, and given Taverner’s genius, I am looking forward to cultivating that appreciation. Harpsichord and clavichord music is another genre which I had to learn to appreciate, but I absolutely love it; Bach’s organ works are perhaps more accessible, but his book The Well Tempered Clavier is so beautiful, and for several other Baroque composers such as Handel and Scarlatti, the bulk of what you are getting, even if orchestral such as in the case of Handel’s Messiah, involves the harpsichord (the only other Baroque organist who I love as much as JS Bach is Dietrich Buxtehude, the Swedish organist who Bach admired and who was to some extent a mentor for Bach).
 
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The Liturgist

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God said "4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. "

So then - they were never commanded to bow down before the ark of the covenant by God - nor to serve it.

Nor were they to bow down to the images if angels nor promise to serve the angels.

I don’t want to get into a debate on iconoclasm, but just as a fact check, the Eastern Orthodox do not, as far as I am aware, promise to serve the angels or other saints. Angels are not regarded as inherently superior to humans in their theology, and much of Eastern Orthodox theology concerns spiritual warfare, which is normally invisible to us, involving those angels faithful to God defending us from attacks and deceptions orchestrated by the fallen angels. And another huge aspect of their theology involves Prelest, a Russian word meaning Spiritual Delusion, which occurs when someone is duped by a fallen angel and develops a warped belief system that can lead to their death.

For example, among the Desert Fathers, and later the monks in the Kiev Caves, there were several cases of monks who were convinced by
demons that they had attained some advanced state of holiness and did not have to pray or do other important things, and eventually many of these monks were told they could fly, or ascend to Heaven in the manner of Ezekiel, and some were restrained by the brethren before they had a chance to leap to their death off a precipice, and others did tragically wind up in the rocks at the bottom of canyons.
 
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Eftsoon

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Herbert Howells,

Herbert Howells' music is just otherworldly. I can't believe how underappreciated he is. His setting of Psalm 142 is mind blowing:

Psalm 142

The Well Tempered Clavier is so beautiful

Isn't it? It was composed as an exercise in temperament and tuning! The mass in B Minor is Bach at the height of his powers I think.


What do you think of the more modern composers such as Messiaen and even some of Stravinsky's later works?
 
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The Liturgist

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I think art should pray us nearer to Christ, and be beautiful. Something I love about the Catholic Church and Orthodoxy is the huge role that sacred artwork, icons, and the beauty of church buildings plays in drawing the soul near to God. And teaching us what He is like. And teaching us what we should become.

the-annunciation-1680.jpg

I agree entirely. Many Protestant churches, particularly Lutheran, Anglican and Methodist churches, and Congregational churches built between the mid 19th and mid 20th centuries, also have splendid iconography.
 
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The Liturgist

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Herbert Howells' music is just otherworldly. I can't believe how underappreciated he is. His setting of Psalm 142 is mind blowing:

Psalm 142



Isn't it? It was composed as an exercise in temperament and tuning! The mass in B Minor is Bach at the height of his powers I think.

Allegedly he had his clavichords tuned to play it, which is quite a remarkable thought; even Christopher Hogwood who is probably the leading Clavichord man today hasn’t attempted to do the whole Well Tempered Klavier on it, but harpsichordists have done so routinely, and one thing that irritates me is when pianists record it on a Steinway; primitive pianos did exist when Bach composed that, the Gravicimbalos, but they were not Steinways (also, I prefer Bluthner pianos, which have a more delicate tone, which makes me unpopular with concert pianists). But the Harpsichord has this dazzling, bright sound to it, which I feel best expresses the work when it is performed.

I do love the Mass in B Minor, particularly the duet Domine Deus, although I lament that the work is not, owing to a number of reasons, considered liturgically useful; I believe Bach intended to use the Mass in B Minor as an abstraction in which musical ideas were stored.

Bach composed four other masses, which together with his formidable array of motets, cantatas and organ preludes, fugues, postludes, chorales and so on, formed the basis for the church music in the chapels of the Duke of Saxony and the Prince of Brandenburg and when he was Thomaskantor, at the Thomaskirche in Leipzig, as well as the other Lutheran churhes in the city, such as the nearby Nicholaskirche.

Three of my ten favorite organs are in Leipzig: the Sauer Orgel at the Thomaskirche, which is a grand old Victorian instrument that has been organically (pun intended) rebuilt and modernized over the years, so it produces a lovely rich sound, the Bachorgel, which was dedicated in 2000 at the Thomaskirche, and is designed for historically accurate performances of pieces composed by Bach in Leipzig before the A = 440 Hz standard had been adopted, so on the Bachorgel, A is 466 Hz (I have a tuning fork from it I purchased as a souvenir), and the instrument in other respects is a classic Baroque instrument in nearly every respect, except I think it has powered bellows, but the stops are of the large Baroque variety as opposed to the swelte toggle switches you see on newer organ consoles, and finally, at the Nicholaskirche, the organ there, I don’t know the history of it, but it makes the sweetest and most pleasant sound I have heard an organ make; it might be my favorite in the world. I have a recording of it which I purchased from the organist and his wife in 2001, after listening to him practice.

What do you think of the more modern composers such as Messiaen and even some of Stravinsky's later works?

Well, I love many of them. I particularly like, among contemporaries of Stravinsky, Rachmaninoff, his ecclesiastical compositions at any rate, Richard Strauss, Sergei Prokofiev, and Maurice Ravel, especially his haunting elegy for a bygone prewar Edwardian or Victorian era, La Valse, which I think is a profound work that is concurrently both Impressionistic and Expressionistic, in that it uses impressionist musical techniques, but aims for an emotional movement which ordinarily I think one would associate with subtler forms of expressionism.

When it comes to later 20th century composers, my favorites tend to be an ecclectic assortment of English church music composers, for example, Francis Jackson, who like so many great Anglican composers was the organist at York Minster (for whatever reason, I find myself consistently disappointed by the music from Canterbury Cathedral; the best stuff in English church music I think tends to happen at York Minster, Westminster Abbey, St. Paul’s, and also Gloucester Cathedral, as well as a few other cathedrals and some of the parish churches in London and Westminster, for example St. Sepulchre-without-Newgate, which is the National Musician’s Church, St. Martin in the Fields, and All Saints Margaret Street. When I listen to archives of BBC Choral Evensong on YouTube, I also have found that the Birmingham Cathedral and Manchester Cathedral are consistently pleasing, and Durham also tends to be very good. Among Anglican composers I like who would be considered modern, I would cite, in addition to Howells and Jackson, Herbert Sumsion, George Dyson, T. Tertius Noble, (those three, Sumsion, Dyson and Noble, are probably my favorites, actually, but I do love Jackson and Howells), and also the Canadian composer Healey Willan.

Then the other group I like are composers who tended to do military band music, and a mix of jazz and classical on the side, for example, the Armenian composer Barsegian, or a Norwegian composer who wrote the 50th jubilee march for their airforce, whose name I cannot remember right now.
 
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BobRyan

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I don’t want to get into a debate on iconoclasm,

iconoclasm
[īˈkänəˌklazəm]
NOUN
  1. the action of attacking or assertively rejecting cherished beliefs and institutions or established values and practices.
  2. the rejection or destruction of religious images as heretical; the doctrine of iconoclasts.
===================================================

1. This entire forum area of CF involves discussing both affirming and opposing views of -- cherished beliefs, practices etc.

2. We hopefully are not destroying anyone's images of any sort regardless of our POV.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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I don’t want to get into a debate on iconoclasm, but just as a fact check, the Eastern Orthodox do not, as far as I am aware, promise to serve the angels or other saints. .... And another huge aspect of their theology involves Prelest, a Russian word meaning Spiritual Delusion, which occurs when someone is duped by a fallen angel and develops a warped belief system that can lead to their death.

Serving the angels or the saints would be news to us. Dealing with prelest is something that we all deal with, but I've seen it frequently with new converts who dive into everything "Orthodox" and become judges of bishops as being heretical and then end every sentence "Forgive me a sinner". Eye rolls ensue.
 
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Jamsie

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Allegedly he had his clavichords tuned to play it, which is quite a remarkable thought; even Christopher Hogwood who is probably the leading Clavichord man today hasn’t attempted to do the whole Well Tempered Klavier on it, but harpsichordists have done so routinely, and one thing that irritates me is when pianists record it on a Steinway; primitive pianos did exist when Bach composed that, the Gravicimbalos, but they were not Steinways (also, I prefer Bluthner pianos, which have a more delicate tone, which makes me unpopular with concert pianists). But the Harpsichord has this dazzling, bright sound to it, which I feel best expresses the work when it is performed.

I do love the Mass in B Minor, particularly the duet Domine Deus, although I lament that the work is not, owing to a number of reasons, considered liturgically useful; I believe Bach intended to use the Mass in B Minor as an abstraction in which musical ideas were stored.

Bach composed four other masses, which together with his formidable array of motets, cantatas and organ preludes, fugues, postludes, chorales and so on, formed the basis for the church music in the chapels of the Duke of Saxony and the Prince of Brandenburg and when he was Thomaskantor, at the Thomaskirche in Leipzig, as well as the other Lutheran churhes in the city, such as the nearby Nicholaskirche.

Three of my ten favorite organs are in Leipzig: the Sauer Orgel at the Thomaskirche, which is a grand old Victorian instrument that has been organically (pun intended) rebuilt and modernized over the years, so it produces a lovely rich sound, the Bachorgel, which was dedicated in 2000 at the Thomaskirche, and is designed for historically accurate performances of pieces composed by Bach in Leipzig before the A = 440 Hz standard had been adopted, so on the Bachorgel, A is 466 Hz (I have a tuning fork from it I purchased as a souvenir), and the instrument in other respects is a classic Baroque instrument in nearly every respect, except I think it has powered bellows, but the stops are of the large Baroque variety as opposed to the swelte toggle switches you see on newer organ consoles, and finally, at the Nicholaskirche, the organ there, I don’t know the history of it, but it makes the sweetest and most pleasant sound I have heard an organ make; it might be my favorite in the world. I have a recording of it which I purchased from the organist and his wife in 2001, after listening to him practice.

As an aside... I just completed the post-production of the "Goldberg Variations" for Peter Watchorn with Musica Omnia. The complete catalog of Watchorn's Bach CDs can be found here: Peter Watchorn – Musica Omnia

One of the distinctives of Musica Omnia - and specifically Watchorn's Bach projects - is the fairly extensive notes. Typically the booklets range from 24 to 32 pages which at this time is onerous on production costs. Also, he usually includes a descriptive of the Harpsichord being used.
 
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The Liturgist

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Serving the angels or the saints would be news to us. Dealing with prelest is something that we all deal with, but I've seen it frequently with new converts who dive into everything "Orthodox" and become judges of bishops as being heretical and then end every sentence "Forgive me a sinner". Eye rolls ensue.

Indeed, my Orthodox friends have warned me of those people - “Hyperdox Herman” types with a bad case of “convertitis.” That said, I have only heard the phrases “conwertsy” and “Angliochian”, to refer in a loving manner to any non-Russian who joins ROCOR, the OCA or another Slavonic church, and Angliochian to lovingly refer in the UK to former members of the Church of England, or the Anglican Church in Wales, or Ireland, or the Scottish Episcopal Church, who join the Antiochian church, which in the UK apparently gets the most converts
 
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The Liturgist

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As an aside... I just completed the post-production of the "Goldberg Variations" for Peter Watchorn with Musica Omnia. The complete catalog of Watchorn's Bach CDs can be found here: Peter Watchorn – Musica Omnia

One of the distinctives of Musica Omnia - and specifically Watchorn's Bach projects - is the fairly extensive notes. Typically the booklets range from 24 to 32 pages which at this time is onerous on production costs. Also, he usually includes a descriptive of the Harpsichord being used.

Could you PM me? I have a relative who is a retired professor of music theory and a composer, who also is a harpsichord enthusiast, who I would like to get one of your CDs, and also introduce to you.
 
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Jamsie

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Could you PM me? I have a relative who is a retired professor of music theory and a composer, who also is a harpsichord enthusiast, who I would like to get one of your CDs, and also introduce to you.

As I've never PM'd let me know if my attempt went through...
 
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Root of Jesse

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But they were not allowed to "bow down before them, or serve them" as in the angel beings that they represented or the images/pictures etc. So then we would not bow down before a picture of Christ - yet such pictures are helpful in directing our thoughts toward Him.
Bob, do you believe that the act of kneeling in prayer is something wrong? Why is it ok to kneel at your bedside, but not ok to kneel in front of an icon or statue? It's as if you think we worship or serve the statue, and nothing could be further from the truth.
And yes, I realize some take kneeling before a statue to the extreme, but then I'd ask if you expect us to control every last person's individual devotion. How people worship, we have no control over. What is in their mind or heart, we have no control over. But the Church does not demand that we kneel down in front of statues, or even pictures of Christ. The image only serves to place in our mind the depiction of the person.
 
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God said "4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. "

So then - they were never commanded to bow down before the ark of the covenant by God - nor to serve it.

Nor were they to bow down to the images if angels nor promise to serve the angels.

The shekinah glory of the presence of God was in the sanctuary - so God Himself present - so bowing in the direction of the Most Holy Pace where the shekinah glory was - could not be an act specifically singling out the ark or the image of angels in the sanctuary.
Yeah, neither are we commanded to bow down and serve any inanimate object. And the point of the passage is that you shall not worship it.
The other thing that comes to mind is that only God and I know whether I'm worshiping anything other than God. You don't know, and you shouldn't judge. But God Himself made images, such as my avatar. I do not worship the image, I worship the person who is the image, Jesus Christ.
 
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Yeah, neither are we commanded to bow down and serve any inanimate object. And the point of the passage is that you shall not worship it.
The other thing that comes to mind is that only God and I know whether I'm worshiping anything other than God. You don't know, and you shouldn't judge. But God Himself made images, such as my avatar. I do not worship the image, I worship the person who is the image, Jesus Christ.

Indeed, we who venerate icons only worship the Holy and Undivided Trinity, our Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, His only begotten son and incarnate Word, and the Holy Spirit, the Helper and Paraclete. Some Christians only address prayers to the Father and the Son, but of late I have been making a point to address the person of the Holy Spirit, in order to make a stand against the accidental semipneumatomacchianism. One thing I love about Sardinia, the smaller of the two larger Italian islands* is the devotion of Sardinian Christians to the Holy Spirit.

*Sardinia is still massive of course; it has a railway system, and even Corsica, home of Napoleon, a French island with an ethnically distinct population has narrow gauge trains, so if one thinks of Sardinia on the scale of say, Malta, the former British colony, that before it was a British colony, was ruled by the Sovereign Military Order of the Knights of Malta, which still exists and issues its own passports, and has its own embassies, or Giglio, the charming little island into which Captain Schettino, did nine and a half years ago crash a modern cruise ship which in some respects appeared horrifyingly less sea worthy than Titanic.
 
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