saving nations or individuals?

RandyPNW

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This subject is controversial, but I'd like to share my opinion that God saves nations, as well as individuals. These two concepts are, however, different in their substance. Individual Salvation is a matter of being spiritually reborn, and completely changed on the inside into a new creature so that God can be properly put 1st in everything. But national salvation has to do with preserving the infrastucture of government, society, and people so that an entire organization of people can be blessed by the interrelationshp of many unique talents. God wishes to save both individuals and nations in this way.

National Salvation is more like deliverance in wartime, such as deliverance from an enemy. It is the preservation of the entire national structure against the threat of some outside force wishing to destroy it. The OT Scriptures were focused many times on the preservation of the nation Israel, beause God promised Abrham natural descendants would form into a nation and an eternal testimony to His faithfulness. It was a reward for the righteousness of Abraham in his response to God's word.

I believe Israel was given, by God, to be a model for all nations, so that all nations would learn how to be righteous and to please God, so that they also would form into nations that God would preserve. We know, from the OT stories, that Israel succeeded as a nation when they were righteous, but fell as a nation when they turned against God's word and rebelled against it.

Though there are many prophecies in the Scriptures that speak of many nations bringing glory to the Lord, and causing His glory to be global, not much is mentioned specifically of "Christian nations." And so, some get the idea that since Israel seemed to have passed away, God doesn't save nations anymore.

But the reality is, God didn't mention "Christian nations" specifically because they had not yet developed in the time of the writing of the NT Scriptures. Historically, God fulfilled the 1st stage in His promises to Abraham by 1st gathering Israel as a nation, and then gathering Christian nations. God had also promised Abraham a family of faith among nations.

The last stage in fulfilling these promises God will send Christ back to judge the world, so that nations can no longer be oppressed and coerced to fall from their Christian faith. When Christ returns, both Israel and many nations will, I believe, become permanent Christian nations.

Just thought I would share this for your interest. Those who have turned against the idea of nations being saved by God are missing out, I think. They don't realize that God is restoring Israel as a nation, after all. Though Israel isn't Christian yet, God may be preparing them for final judgment before He saves them.

Furthermore, it is to our benefit to believe that nations can be saved. By the example of Israel we know that when we repent of our sins, and turn to Christ and live in righteousness, God will hear our prayers and deliver our nation. If we don't know this, we won't testify to the righteousness our nation needs to be saved! Even if the majority in our nation don't listen, it is still necessary to preach the truth of Christian righteousness, because God will use this testimony to hold those who hear accountable. He can then judge and remove the wicked to make a better place for those who are righteous.
 

Eftsoon

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This subject is controversial, but I'd like to share my opinion that God saves nations, as well as individuals. These two concepts are, however, different in their substance. Individual Salvation is a matter of being spiritually reborn, and completely changed on the inside into a new creature so that God can be properly put 1st in everything. But national salvation has to do with preserving the infrastucture of government, society, and people so that an entire organization of people can be blessed by the interrelationshp of many unique talents. God wishes to save both individuals and nations in this way.

National Salvation is more like deliverance in wartime, such as deliverance from an enemy. It is the preservation of the entire national structure against the threat of some outside force wishing to destroy it. The OT Scriptures were focused many times on the preservation of the nation Israel, beause God promised Abrham natural descendants would form into a nation and an eternal testimony to His faithfulness. It was a reward for the righteousness of Abraham in his response to God's word.

I believe Israel was given, by God, to be a model for all nations, so that all nations would learn how to be righteous and to please God, so that they also would form into nations that God would preserve. We know, from the OT stories, that Israel succeeded as a nation when they were righteous, but fell as a nation when they turned against God's word and rebelled against it.

Though there are many prophecies in the Scriptures that speak of many nations bringing glory to the Lord, and causing His glory to be global, not much is mentioned specifically of "Christian nations." And so, some get the idea that since Israel seemed to have passed away, God doesn't save nations anymore.

But the reality is, God didn't mention "Christian nations" specifically because they had not yet developed in the time of the writing of the NT Scriptures. Historically, God fulfilled the 1st stage in His promises to Abraham by 1st gathering Israel as a nation, and then gathering Christian nations. God had also promised Abraham a family of faith among nations.

The last stage in fulfilling these promises God will send Christ back to judge the world, so that nations can no longer be oppressed and coerced to fall from their Christian faith. When Christ returns, both Israel and many nations will, I believe, become permanent Christian nations.

Just thought I would share this for your interest. Those who have turned against the idea of nations being saved by God are missing out, I think. They don't realize that God is restoring Israel as a nation, after all. Though Israel isn't Christian yet, God may be preparing them for final judgment before He saves them.

Furthermore, it is to our benefit to believe that nations can be saved. By the example of Israel we know that when we repent of our sins, and turn to Christ and live in righteousness, God will hear our prayers and deliver our nation. If we don't know this, we won't testify to the righteousness our nation needs to be saved! Even if the majority in our nation don't listen, it is still necessary to preach the truth of Christian righteousness, because God will use this testimony to hold those who hear accountable. He can then judge and remove the wicked to make a better place for those who are righteous.


I prefer not to think in terms of nation states. They are a manmade construct. Better to think in terms of individuals. We're headed for a one world government at any rate, so the idea will soon be obsolete.
 
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Eftsoon

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But national salvation has to do with preserving the infrastucture of government, society, and people so that an entire organization of people can be blessed

In theory, great, but in practice this has meant American exceptionalism and western hegemony.I'm wary whenever I hear people talking about preserving culture etc. It often means draconian policies which trample over someone's human rights.
I tolerate government because God has commanded me to submit to government. I'm not interested in actively supporting and upholding my government however.
 
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1watchman

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Well, that is some reasoning, Randy, but I don't see any mention in Holy Scripture about nations being saved, but ONLY individuals in all nations. We each individually must be "born again" (John 3; John 14; Romans 8; etc) --right? Certain nations might be honored in this present day for a Christian testimony at times, but ALL nations have corrupted and bad leaders at times. I stay clear of politics, for they are all after their own good, and mostly do not know the Bible and the mind of God (though some pretend to be 'christian' to get elected).
True believers by faith in Jesus Christ, are called "ambassadors for Christ", and Ambassadors have the responsibility to 'represent the one who sent them' only ---true of all nations; and real "born again" believers are SENT here to represent Jesus Christ. We are told to not defy "Caesar" but yield (except when he orders us to go contrary to what God has said --which speaks of all governments). Well, I hope this helps some in understanding what our God is telling us in His Word. Keep looking up!
 
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RandyPNW

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I prefer not to think in terms of nation states. They are a manmade construct. Better to think in terms of individuals. We're headed for a one world government at any rate, so the idea will soon be obsolete.

I personally believe God created nations, just as He created families. But like anything man touches, families and nations become corrupt.

But we wouldn't throw out families, just because they are corrupt at times. Neither would we throw out nations, because they help man fulfill his call to serve God in community. Governments help defend and provide.

Since God promised Abraham the nation of Israel, and the hope of many nations of faith, don't you think the Bible references "nations" there?

I don't believe a one-world government will be truly universal, or global. Rather, I think the Kingdom of Antichrist will actually be a European empire of 10 nation-states, with 7 dominant leaders, Antichrist being the 8th.

Still, just as Satan has interested parties throughout the human race, so Antichrist will have admirers all over the world, who want the kind of freedom from God Satan enjoys. Nations will, I think, oppose Antichrist's dominance after his 1260 days reign of absolute power ends. Then nations will gather to Armageddon for war.

I don't claim to know any of this for sure. It's just what I presently believe the Bible teaches. Thanks for your thoughts. I agree with some of your sentiment, for sure!
 
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tturt

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"Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance." Psa 33

Otherwise "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:" Eph 2:2

We can asks Yahweh to remove the blinders from their minds:
. "...for their minds have been blinded by the god of this age, leaving them in unbelief. Their blindness keeps them from seeing the dayspring light of the wonderful news of the glory of Jesus Christ, who is the divine image of God." II Cor 4:4
 
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