Female ordination

Root of Jesse · Jun 15, 2021

Paidiske said:
My argument is that, in my experience and according to what I can find online, a majority of lay Catholics want and would welcome women's ordination. If you can find a source which has surveyed Catholics and found otherwise, I'd be interested to see it.

I know what your argument is. In my experience, you're wrong. You will find what you seek.

Either way, my point that you came into this thread criticising others seems to be substantiated.

I haven't criticized others. I don't care about how you feel. Just given reasons why it is not acceptable. I don't speak from opinion.

Ordination isn't the only "formal" ministry.

it is the only one we are talking about in this thread, supposedly. And I was speaking of vocations as formal, not ministries. I do ministries, and have taken classes to speak about my faith, but it is volunteer. Raise your hand, you get picked.

"It is apparent" - what, not even a Scripture quote to back this up?

the examples I gave are in Scripture. You can find them, I'm sure.

I would argue that it is not at all clear that Jesus set the twelve apart in a way which amounted to ordination.

I know. Because thats what you want to see.

Paidiske · Jun 15, 2021

Root of Jesse said:
I don't speak from opinion.

We're all speaking from opinion. Opinion informed by various sources, to be sure, but it's all opinion.

Root of Jesse said:
it is the only one we are talking about in this thread, supposedly. And I was speaking of vocations as formal, not ministries.

I think it's important to recognise - even in threads like these - that vocation isn't just for ordination. Any of us might recognise God's call on our lives, to do particular things or take up particular roles. And that vocation is just as precious no matter what the task to which one is called.

Root of Jesse said:
the examples I gave are in Scripture. You can find them, I'm sure.

I meant an explicit example of Christ laying on hands in the ordination of an apostle. I can find references to him laying on hands in healing or blessing (of the little children), but not in anything that might be read as conferring authority or ordination. So, in the absence of such a reference, we are left only with speculation.

Root of Jesse said:
I know. Because thats what you want to see.

Well, if you claim it is otherwise, show the evidence! Otherwise drop the sneering comments. I at least can make a coherent case for my position that doesn't rely on suggesting that others aren't engaging in good faith.

Hmm · Jun 15, 2021

Root of Jesse said:
I don't speak from opinion.

Everyone does. You may believe that what you say is truth because it reflects the message of a church that claims infallibility but the belief that this claim is true is really no more than something that you've evaluated as true, i.e. personal opinion. We only see through a glass darkly and in part while in this world, as Paul said.

rturner76 · Jun 15, 2021

Strong in Him said:
It seems Catholics believe that yours is the only valid church anyway - and that's not Scriptural.
Catholics on this forum have said that born again, Spirit-filled, Christian children of God who believe in one God and One Saviour, only have part of the truth.

That's not true anymore but many Catholics still hold to the old ways. Here is what the Catechism says about salvation outside the Church. It basically says, if you are baptized you are a member of the body of christ The CHurch. It even says those who seek God with a sincere heart may also find salvation.

"Outside the Church, there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? 335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. 336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. 337

Root of Jesse · Jun 15, 2021

Paidiske said:
We're all speaking from opinion. Opinion informed by various sources, to be sure, but it's all opinion.

if you believe your faith is Truth, and I do, and you're explaining what your faith teaches, its not opinion. Its fact. But I know what yall think.

I think it's important to recognise - even in threads like these - that vocation isn't just for ordination. Any of us might recognise God's call on our lives, to do particular things or take up particular roles. And that vocation is just as precious no matter what the task to which one is called.

what is the focus of the thread? I know my vocation. My marriage, my work as a catechism, my work as a lector. But this thread is specifically about female ordination.

I meant an explicit example of Christ laying on hands in the ordination of an apostle. I can find references to him laying on hands in healing or blessing (of the little children), but not in anything that might be read as conferring authority or ordination. So, in the absence of such a reference, we are left only with speculation.

one of the first things the apostles did was seek a replacement for Judas. They did so by laying hands on Matthias after the Holy Spirit showed them which one. That tells me that this is something Jesus taught them. Paul, in Galatians, also sought ratification by the other apostles, and received it by them laying hands on them.

Well, if you claim it is otherwise, show the evidence! Otherwise drop the sneering comments. I at least can make a coherent case for my position that doesn't rely on suggesting that others aren't engaging in good faith.

I have shown otherwise. You think it is my opinion, and disagree. And it is my opinion you have not made your case. You merely think that majority, if such exists, should mean something. I believe you believe what you're saying. My Church says you're wrong.

Root of Jesse · Jun 15, 2021

Hmm said:
Everyone does. You may believe that what you say is truth because it reflects the message of a church that claims infallibility but the belief that this claim is true is really no more than something that you've evaluated as true, i.e. personal opinion. We only see through a glass darkly and in part while in this world, as Paul said.

No. I believe that my Church has all truth. Scripture says so.

Strong in Him · Jun 15, 2021

Root of Jesse said:
No. I believe that my Church has all truth. Scripture says so.

Jesus IS the Truth, John 14:6.
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth, John 16:13.
God's word is truth, John 17:17.
Whoever has received Jesus, lives in Jesus, is filled with the Holy Spirit and reads God's word, has all truth.

Nowhere does Scripture say "the Catholic church, alone, has the truth; all truth.

Strong in Him · Jun 15, 2021

rturner76 said:
That's not true anymore but many Catholics still hold to the old ways. 337

Maybe. But folk on these forums have said that the Catholic church is the only true church - even to the extent of calling their Christian brothers and sisters "members of apostate churches."

Root of Jesse · Jun 15, 2021

Strong in Him said:
Jesus IS the Truth, John 14:6.
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth, John 16:13.
God's word is truth, John 17:17.
Whoever has received Jesus, lives in Jesus, is filled with the Holy Spirit and reads God's word, has all truth.

Nowhere does Scripture say "the Catholic church, alone, has the truth; all truth.

How many churches did Jesus form? And He did say that when he ascended, he would send the Holy Spirit to guide His (one) church in all truth. I believe Jesus meant what He said.

Root of Jesse · Jun 15, 2021

Strong in Him said:
Maybe. But folk on these forums have said that the Catholic church is the only true church - even to the extent of calling their Christian brothers and sisters "members of apostate churches."

I t doesn't matter what some Catholics say or believe. It matters what the Church teaches.

Strong in Him · Jun 15, 2021

Root of Jesse said:
How many churches did Jesus form? And He did say that when he ascended, he would send the Holy Spirit to guide His (one) church in all truth. I believe Jesus meant what He said.

THE church is all followers of Jesus. The word Catholic is nowhere in Scripture.
Jesus is THE Truth; non Catholics who are in Jesus and filled with his Spirit have the truth, every bit as much as Catholics.

Strong in Him · Jun 15, 2021

Root of Jesse said:
I t doesn't matter what some Catholics say or believe. It matters what the Church teaches.

Fine.

Thank you for agreeing that your fellow Catholics who say that I have only a "subset" of the truth and belong to an apostate church, are wrong.

Root of Jesse · Jun 15, 2021

Strong in Him said:
Fine.

Thank you for agreeing that your fellow Catholics who say that I have only a "subset" of the truth and belong to an apostate church, are wrong.

Well, I didn't say that, either. You dont have the entire Truth. You're missing most of the Sacraments. You do great with what you haven't chopped out. But thats another topic, entirely.

Root of Jesse · Jun 15, 2021

Strong in Him said:
THE church is all followers of Jesus. The word Catholic is nowhere in Scripture.
Jesus is THE Truth; non Catholics who are in Jesus and filled with his Spirit have the truth, every bit as much as Catholics.

Where did I say 'Catholics? And yet, if Christ founded one Church, it is universal. Catholic. I never commented that non-Catholics don't have the Truth, either. But there is all truth, and some truth. It doesn't say anything against you.

Strong in Him · Jun 15, 2021

Root of Jesse said:
Well, I didn't say that, either. You dont have the entire Truth. You're missing most of the Sacraments.

Jesus IS the Truth.
Jesus is THE Truth.
I have the Truth; I have Jesus.

Strong in Him · Jun 15, 2021

Root of Jesse said:
Where did I say 'Catholics? And yet, if Christ founded one Church, it is universal.

Yes, Catholic means universal. All Christians of all denominations are part of the universal church. We have the same Nicene Creed which says "we believe in One holy, catholic and apostolic church."

You may not be saying that the Catholic church is the correct, and only, church; but several on these forums have done.

rturner76 · Jun 15, 2021

Strong in Him said:
Maybe. But folk on these forums have said that the Catholic church is the only true church - even to the extent of calling their Christian brothers and sisters "members of apostate churches."

Those people just get a kick out of thinking they are part of the "in-crowd." Vatican II changed that tenant of "the only church is the Roman Catholic Church."

So individuals will act stuck up the Church itself preaches much more forgiveness than people think.

I too have been told on this forum that my religion is of the antichrist and THe CHurch is the harlot of Babylon and all that. These people will not budge from their stance.

You can report people who say your denomination is invalid. CF doesn't like that stuff.

Root of Jesse · Jun 15, 2021

Strong in Him said:
Jesus IS the Truth.
Jesus is THE Truth.
I have the Truth; I have Jesus.

Then why are there all these many interpretations about who Jesus is, what he meant by what he said, and so on? There is only one Truth. Just like this topic, female ordination, it's a binary answer, either yes, or no. I don't see anywhere in Scripture where Jesus had any women among his apostles. NOWHERE. He had women in his disciples, who were the next closest to Him. But no leadership, and by that, I mean hierarchy.
If you believe everything Jesus said and did, you would believe he meant what he said and said what he meant. He prayed that His Church might be One, as the Father and He are one. He told his followers that they must eat His flesh and drink His blood in order to have eternal life. There is no denying he said that, yet you and others want to say he didn't mean it, or he meant it symbolically (of course he meant it symbolically, but not as we understand that word today. It was a sign, a symbol, but it was also the real thing. John tells us about signs and wonders, they are things he actually did, like changing water into wine). He also told his apostles that he must rise into heaven, and that when he did that, he would send the Paraclete to guide them into all Truth.
We, Catholics, at least faithful ones, believe that everything Jesus said is true, how he meant them. How do we know this? We have the early Church to show us.

Root of Jesse · Jun 15, 2021

Strong in Him said:
Yes, Catholic means universal. All Christians of all denominations are part of the universal church. We have the same Nicene Creed which says "we believe in One holy, catholic and apostolic church."

You may not be saying that the Catholic church is the correct, and only, church; but several on these forums have done.

I agree with you that all Christians (at least those that baptise in the correct formula) are part of the universal church. That's why we accept all such baptisms, even if you don't believe that "Baptism now saves you." You use the formula, and regardless of what you mean by baptism, we know what God means.
I believe the Catholic Church, that body of teaching, is the precisely correct Church, yes. It is not the only Church, and every religion has some elements of the Truth. Every one. Yeah, even Buddhist, Muslim and all the others.
I also can't help what others might say. As I said, when I'm here, I'm speaking about what the Church teaches. I may even have my own idea about something, but what the Church teaches is more important than what I think.

Strong in Him · Jun 15, 2021

rturner76 said:
Those people just get a kick out of thinking they are part of the "in-crowd." Vatican II changed that tenant of "the only church is the Roman Catholic Church."

I'm very pleased to hear that.

rturner76 said:
I too have been told on this forum that my religion is of the antichrist and THe CHurch is the harlot of Babylon and all that. These people will not budge from their stance.

I know, and I'm sorry you've had to hear that.
Though I disagree with the Catholic church on some things, I always defend you against those sorts of accusations. That's a disgraceful thing to say about fellow Christians.

rturner76 said:
You can report people who say your denomination is invalid. CF doesn't like that stuff.

Oh, ok; that's worth knowing. Thanks.

Female ordination

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord

Clara bonam audax

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

Domine non-sum dignus

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord

Great is thy faithfulness

Great is thy faithfulness

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord

Great is thy faithfulness

Great is thy faithfulness

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord

Great is thy faithfulness

Great is thy faithfulness

Domine non-sum dignus

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord

Great is thy faithfulness

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