20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

Moriah's Song said:

How is it that you have used outside sources in the past as I found a few of yours:

#300 - Adam Clarke expounds this passage: “As God intended to justify the heathen through faith, he preached the Gospel that contains the grand display of the doctrine of salvation by faith, before, to Abraham, while he was in his heathen state; and thus he is called the father of believers: therefore it must refer to them who shall believe the same Gospel among the Gentiles; and, as the door of faith was open to all the Gentiles, consequently the promise was fulfilled: In thee shall all the nations of the earth be blessed.”

#386 - NT Wright says of Abraham, “Abraham emerges within the structure of Genesis as the answer to the plight of all humankind. The line of disaster and of the ‘curse’, from Adam, through Cain, through the Flood to Babel, begins to be reversed when God calls Abraham and says ‘in you shall all the families of the earth be blessed’” (The New Testament and the People of God).

#2985 - Most commentators accept that Peter is speaking of actual people in in v 5 and not the physical world.

I will only add that there is not a pastor in any pulpit that does not have a library of outside sources to do research on.

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You are not really getting what I am saying. Your reply was all commentary. That is unacceptable and unimpressive. Anyone can do that. It doesn't cut it.

Guojing said:

that might be But it still does not allow you to conclude that David is now in heaven correct?

Unless you are saying that verse is actually saying David is ascended into the heavens?

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He is there now. But he did not ascend in his life. Jesus had to conquer the grave on behalf of His elect.

Guojing said:

i am asking, given what acts 2:34 said clearly that David is not ascended, how do you still end up with that doctrine?

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It is spoken as back in David’s day. It is comparing the superiority of Christ to David. Please read: “Not (Ou) For (gár) David (Dauíd) is ascended (anébee) into (eis) the (toús) heavens (ouranoús): saith (légei).”

Freedm said:

I believe David ascended into heaven in 70 AD along with all the other OT saints. Prior to 70 AD people actually died and returned to the dust of the earth because they were mortal.

So yes, even in Acts 2:34, nobody had ascended to heaven yet at that time. It didn't happen until 70 AD. That was when the kingdom of Christ came to earth and the thousand years began. I believe we are currently in the thousand years.

And now also we are immortal, at least in the sense that when we die we are immediately resurrected into our heavenly bodies and we join those already "in the clouds" (those in the clouds are those who have the power and authority of immortality). In this way we will never die, just as Jesus promised in John 8:51 - Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death.) Those who are not believers still die, and they will not be resurrected until the thousand years are over.

That's what I believe and I believe this all makes sense in light of all of scripture. If you can find scripture that contradicts any of this, please let me know.

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Of course you do. Extreme Preterists are fixated with the coming of Titus in AD70. For the rest of us, we are obsessed with Christ's sinless life, atoning death and victorious resurrection. The cross is at the center of our faith. It is the most significant event in our history.

Guojing said:

I don’t understand.

When you keep using the Greek, are you trying to say it means something that is contradictory to the kjv rendition of vs 34 in English?

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I am saying that that was the reality back in David's day.

Guojing said:

but now you don’t want to understand acts 2:34 literally, because it goes against your doctrine?

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Not so. You do not get the thrust.

Guojing said:

At least, I see Freedm is honest enough to admit he is holding "David ascended in AD 70" as a personal doctrine, which I can respect.

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And? The physical resurrection of David has not yet occurred. It occurs at the second coming.

Guojing said:

So wouldn't it be less ad-hoc to just conclude that NOW, all the OT saints are still in Abraham's bosom, on the Earth, waiting for that physical resurrection to take place during the 2nd coming?

Why have a doctrine that states that their spirits is in heaven NOW, but during the 2nd coming, all these heavenly spirits go back down on the grave, take a physical body, and then get a "physical resurrection"?

Which is less ad-hoc to believe in? After all, the nation of Israel's destiny is to inherit the Earth, not the heavens (Matthew 5:5)

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The physical resurrection of David has not yet occurred. It occurs at the second coming. It doesn't say that anywhere. You have zero Scripture. The elect are in heaven in spirit now. They will physically rise when Jesus comes.

Guojing said:

You have zero scripture that said "the elect are in heaven in spirit now".

I happen to agree with you that David has not physically resurrected. I said he is in Abraham's bosom and that is still on Earth.

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Not true. I previously presented multiple passages that prove that, but you rejected these. They forbid your beliefs. I will repost.

Jesus said in Matthew 22:32, “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

Jesus said in Mark 12:27 records, “He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.”

Jesus said in Luke 20:38 records, “For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.”

The Bible says they are alive.

Philippians 2:9-11 says, “Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

Here are the three places that men can currently be found – heaven, earth, and hell. Whilst saved and lost can both be found on earth, only the redeemed are in heaven and only the wicked are in hell. Revelation 5:3 repeats that, saying, “And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.”

Ephesians 3:14-15 alludes to the two places where the redeemed can be found, saying, “For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named.”

Family or 'patria' represents paternal descent lineage, family kindred. It is also found in Luke 2:4, Acts 3:25 denoting house[hold] or family.

Ephesians 1:10 records: “That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him.”

Colossians 1:20: “having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.”

When Christ comes He will bring the dead in Christ with Him. Jesus said in Matthew 24:31, of His Coming, “And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

Mark 13:27 enlarges slightly, saying, “And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”

I Thessalonians 3:13 says, “To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints."

1 Thessalonians 4:14 says, “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.”

Jude 14 similarly says, “And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints. To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

Luke 9:28-31 says of Christ, “he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray. And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering. And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.”

Moses and Elijah were still very much alive and kicking!!!

Jesus said in Luke 16:19-31, “There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.”

The passage continues, “Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead” (Luke 16:19-31).

The just are clearly “comforted” here.

The lost are clearly “tormented” here.

But it talking about the man in hell sending someone to his brothers who were still physically alive and warning them about the flames. This can't be after the coming of Christ.

Jesus said to the dying thief, in Luke 23:43, "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Acts 7:59-60 records, “And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.”

Stephen’s spirit was separating from his body and went to be with God. However, his body was going to the grave.

2 Corinthians 5:8 says, "We are confident, I say, and willing rather ‘to be absent’ from the body, and ‘to be present’ with the Lord."

‘ekdeemeesai’ – ‘be absent’

‘endeemeesai’ – ‘be present’

Paul said in Philippians 1:21-24 says, “For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.”

Death was a promotion for Paul!!!

1 Thessalonians 5:10 tells us that Christ “died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.”

The writer to the Hebrews censures such a foolish earthly notion of focusing upon the physical Jerusalem below, in Hebrews 12:18, 22-23, saying, “For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest …but ye are come unto mount sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.”

Revelation

Revelation 14:13 agrees: “And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”

In Revelation 4:4, 10, 5:8, 14, 11:6, 19:4, we see 24 Elders around the throne in heaven. Who are they? Also, in Revelation 7 we see several references to 144,000 in heaven that have been redeemed from off the earth. Who are they?

Revelation 20:4 says, “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them.”

And continues, “I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”

Revelation 6:9-10 similarly says, “I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?”

Revelation 6:9-10 – the fifth seal – is unquestionably speaking (1) of heaven and also (2) of a time prior to the Second Advent and the day of God’s wrath – the sixth seal.

The very next verse of this narrative (6:11) says, “And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.”

Here we clearly have a heavenly scene, and a heavenly scene in this present period of time. It reveals the risen saints in glory awaiting the consummation of all things.

Revelation 15:1-3 says, “I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, andover his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the lamb, saying, great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.”

Again, this relates to the intra-Advent period. Also, there is no doubt that this scene is in heaven and that “victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name” evidently meant martyrdom for those in view. However, absent from the body for the believer assuredly means present with the Lord in His heavenly abode.

Revelation 7:9-14 adds further light on the matter, saying, “I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb…one of the elders answered, saying unto me, what are these which are arrayed in white robes? And whence came they? And I said unto him, sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, these are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”

The souls are therefore identified here as (1) the redeemed and are clearly located (2) in heaven.

Verse 15 continues, “Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.”