How one is saved.....

d taylor · Jun 14, 2021

Neostarwcc said:
There are two things required for salvation: 1. Faith, 2. Repentance. It is impossible to truly come to Christ without those two things. However that being said, you do not save yourselves. God does all of the salvation work from when before you first were born until your last breath on earth.

Repentance is not require to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life, repentance is for everyone believers and unbelievers. If a person is caught up into a sinful life style or repetitive sin. Especially ones that can harm a persons health, they would be wise to heed God's warning because these sins could bring harm and even death to a person if they do not repent from them. Repentance is a very important part of a believers life especially in keeping a right relationship with God.

God/Jesus took away the sin of the world, so there is no barrier between a person and God's free gift of Eternal Life. A person is able to freely trust in The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life. All they have to to is believe that Jesus is the promised Messiah from the prophecies of The Tanakh and trust in the Messiah for Eternal Life.

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

Titus Dorn · Jun 14, 2021

Danthemailman said:
In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

What was James' point for bringing up the demons?
The context in chapter 2 of James is, Are we saved by belief alone? Or by belief and works?

James asks this very question:
James 2:14 what doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith(alone) and have not works? CAN FAITH(ALONE) SAVE HIM?

This is the answer to why James uses the demons as an example for faith and no works. BECAUSE DEMONS CAN NOT BE SAVED BY THEIR FAITH ALONE!!! And neither can anyone else who believes in Sola Fide. If not why not?

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is JUSTIFIED and NOT BY FAITH ONLY.

Danthemailman · Jun 14, 2021

Titus Dorn said:
What was James' point for bringing up the demons?
The context in chapter 2 of James is, Are we saved by belief alone? Or by belief and works?

James asks this very question:
James 2:14 what doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith (alone) and have not works? CAN FAITH (ALONE) SAVE HIM?

This is the answer to why James uses the demons as an example for faith and no works. BECAUSE DEMONS CAN NOT BE SAVED BY THEIR FAITH ALONE!!! And neither can anyone else who believes in Sola Fide. If not why not?

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is JUSTIFIED and NOT BY FAITH ONLY.

As I previously explained, in James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan (and not in Jesus) as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. Demons do not have saving faith in Christ.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple! :oldthumbsup:

*Paul makes it crystal clear that we are NOT saved by works:

Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

2 Timothy 1:9 - who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

Titus 3:5 - not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.

Works-salvationists are easily tripped up by James chapter 2. What James means by "faith only" or "faith alone" which is an "empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone/barren of works" (James 2:24) is not the same thing as "living faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation." (Romans 4:5-6) Once we are made alive together with Christ being saved by grace through faith, then our faith results in producing good works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. t declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

So as we can see man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is substantiated, evidenced by works. (James 2:14-24)

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

CatsRule2020 · Jun 14, 2021

This thread must really be confusing to a new convert.

I am not a new convert myself, but I think the gist of this thread is that works of the New Testament are the commandments of the New Testament.

That the works of the Law of Moses are the commandments of the Law of Moses.

Titus Dorn · Jun 14, 2021

If I could get through to you one important belief that I have, because I believe it is 100% Biblical is this:

WE ARE NOT SAVED BY MERITORIOUS WORKS!!!!

I know I have already explained to you that I do not believe the gospel has meritorious works. Yet you like most all Faith alone denominations cannot get past there being all kinds of different works in Gods word. Every time you folks here the word works all you seem to understand is meritorious, meritorious, meritorious.

Do you not know there are works of obedience? These works earn you nothing! There's all kinds of works, Sir.

Danthemailman said:
As I previously explained, in James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan (and not in Jesus) as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. Demons do not have saving faith in Christ.

Did you answer my simple question?
Why does James bring up the demons having faith?
Your explanation does not fit the context in chapter 2.

Danthemailman said:
they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31)

You think this is why James uses the demons to contrast FAITH ALONE WITH FAITH WITH WORKS.
Did you notice that you MENTIONED NOTHING ABOUT THE SUBJECT OF FAITH WITH WORKS AND FAITH WITHOUT WORKS?

Instead you interpret James 2:19 as James saying they dont have a trusting faith that Jesus will save them, REALLY!!!

You think James brings up the demons faith as proof that their faith can't save them. Do you not realize that a demon not being saved by their faith GOES WITHOUT SAYING? Do you know anybody that think demons are going to be saved?

Of course their faith cannot save them. You have missed why James uses the demons faith as an example here.

Look at the verses before verse 19,

James 2:14;17-20
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith AND HAVE NOT WORKS? Can faith(without works) save him?

Even so faith, if it hath not works, IS DEAD BEING ALONE.

Yeah a man may say, Thou hast faith and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works and I will shew thee my faith BY MY WORKS.

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: THE DEVILS ALSO BELIEVE(WITHOUT WORKS, THAT IS THE SUBJECT MATTER DANTHEMAILMAN !!!) And tremble.

I hope this is becoming more clear to you. James is asking what kind of faith saves us. Faith with works or faith without works? The next verses James gives us the answer.

James 2:20-24

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works IS DEAD?

Was not Abraham our father JUSTIFIED BY WORKS, when he offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Seest thou how FAITH WROUGHT WITH HIS WORKS(his works not Gods) and by works was faith made PERFECT?

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God(but not faith alone, he had works) and it was IMPUTED UNTO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS: (This says Abraham himself was made righteous) and he was called the friend of God.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified( James says a MAN IS JUSTIFIED by his works) AND NOT BY FAITH ONLY. Did you catch that Danthemailman? No man is justified by Faith Alone!!! Do you believe James?

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD ALSO. Wow, James says your workless faith is dead like a corpse without a spirit!!! James doesn't believe what you believe Danthemailman.

James teaches that faith without works cannot justify a man. No justification no salvation. James 2:14 ...can faith(without works) save him? James teaches no!

Danthemailman said:
God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

"This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous"

James says Abraham's works MADE HIM RIGHTEOUS AND JUSTIFIED Not God.

I have good news for you Danthemailman, God is and has always been righteous! He doesn't need man to do things to make Him righteous.

James 2:23-24
And the scripture was fulfilled which sayeth, Abraham believed God, AND IT WAS IMPUTED(setting to ones account) unto him for righteousness: and he was called the friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified and not by faith alone.

James said without works Abraham was not made righteous or justified. Therefore he was saved when his faith HAD WORKS NOT BEFORE. He was not justified until he had works not before.

No one is saved before they are justified:
Romans 8:30 Moreover whom Be did predestinate, them He also called, them HE ALSO JUSTIFIED: AND WHOM HE JUSTIFIED, THEM HE ALSO GLORIFIED.

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now JUSTIFIED BY HIS BLOOD, WE SHALL BE SAVED FROM WRATH THROUGH HIM.
Clearly we see that a man is not saved until he is justified. Abraham was not justified without works(faith alone).

Abraham, therefore was saved by Jesus' blood WHEN HIS FAITH WAS WROUGHT WITH HIS WORKS AND BY HIS WORKS HIS FAITH WAS MADE PERFECT!!! No one is saved by faith without works, James 2:19.

But wait! Paul says Abraham was NOT SAVED BY HIS WORKS!

Romans 4:2-3 For if Abraham were justified by works he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Could this be a contradiction in Gods perfect revelation? Nope! Paul and James are in perfect harmony.

Remember when I said you can't seem to get past works being only works of merit? Well, now you are going to learn that there are works that cannot save and works of obedience that God commands in His gospel that we must do for God to give us His grace and save us!

Romans 4:2-3 = Acts 13:39
And by Him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified BY THE LAW OF MOSES.
Abraham was not justified,saved by works of the old law says Paul in Romans 4:2-3. But James says Abraham was saved, justified by works. What kind of works James?

WORKS OF OBEDIENCE THAT COMES FROM FAITH, TRUST IN GOD!

The only faith that saves is an obedient faith. Never faith alone.

Faith + works, obedient works never meritorious(works of the law of Moses) but works of obedience in Jesus' gospel. This obedient faith is Biblical saving faith.

Works of obedience in Jesus' gospel :

Belief Mark 16:15-16

Repentance Acts 2:38

Confession Romans 10:9-10

Water immersion, Acts 2:38; Mark 16:15-16; 1Peter 3:20-21; Acts 22:16;

You cannot be saved if you do not believe Jesus' words, in His gospel,John 5:24.

CatsRule2020 · Jun 14, 2021

CatsRule2020 said:
This thread must really be confusing to a new convert.

I am not a new convert myself, but I think the gist of this thread is that works of the New Testament are the commandments of the New Testament.

That the works of the Law of Moses are the commandments of the Law of Moses.

I cannot find anything in either the New or Old Testaments on meritorious works, but, one could keep a righteous scorecard by adhering to the commandments of the Law of Moses that applied to them. 613 commandments all together.

Titus Dorn · Jun 14, 2021

CatsRule2020 said:
This thread must really be confusing to a new convert.

I am not a new convert myself, but I think the gist of this thread is that works of the New Testament are the commandments of the New Testament.

That the works of the Law of Moses are the commandments of the Law of Moses.

That is basically true. But there are different kinds of works in the new testament and the old testament.

What the main argument will always be over ,when it comes to salvation and works is there is a great divide among the Sola Fide ie Faith Alone. And those who believe the gospel unto salvation is more than just belief only.

You got the faith alone believers that think there can be no works in Jesus' gospel to save us. And the rest that believe there are works in the gospel that we must do, not to save ourselves ie meritorious works( although Catholics are guilty of this as are Mormons and some other sects) but in order that
God might grant us salvation by meeting His conditions in His gospel.

I'll give you one of the conditions that man must do to qualify for God to gift us His saving grace. BELIEF IN JESUS IS ONE CONDITION.

Some wrongly believe that there can be no conditions in Jesus' gospel that man must do in order for God to save us.

Friend, if there are no conditions or qualifications that we must meet for us to be an acceptable candidate to receive Gods grace then EVERYONE IS GOING TO HEAVEN.

This is obviously wrong for if you don't meet Gods requirement to have faith you do not qualify as a candidate to be saved in Jesus' gospel.

So the faith alone believers contradict there own doctrine. When they say man does not have to do anything to be saved. YES HE DOES, He has to believe in Jesus!

But if you study all the conversion accounts in the book of Acts. You will see that no one was ever saved by belief alone.

The very first time the gospel of Jesus Christ was preached was in Acts 2. Peter preached the first gospel sermon to Jews. And he told them they had to DO something. He never preached Jesus' gospel was just believe on the Lord and that's it. Your saved.

This is what he really told them to be saved,

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them , Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

There is only one gospel of Jesus Christ, Epheasians 4:5.

Therefore every one gets saved the exact same way. Not once in the new testament do you find a person being saved by a "gospel" of just believe and God will have you.

They always do something to receive Gods free gift.

Let's discuss more on the true gospel of Jesus Christ and how we are truly saved by it.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the jew first and also to the Greek.

Titus Dorn · Jun 14, 2021

Danthemailman said:
As I previously explained, in James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan (and not in Jesus) as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. Demons do not have saving faith in Christ.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

*Paul makes it crystal clear that we are NOT saved by works:

Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

2 Timothy 1:9 - who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

Titus 3:5 - not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.

Works-salvationists are easily tripped up by James chapter 2. What James means by "faith only" or "faith alone" which is an "empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone/barren of works" (James 2:24) is not the same thing as "living faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation." (Romans 4:5-6) Once we are made alive together with Christ being saved by grace through faith, then our faith results in producing good works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. t declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

So as we can see man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is substantiated, evidenced by works. (James 2:14-24)

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

1John 3:7 Little children, let no ,man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous.

Danthemailman · Jun 15, 2021

Titus Dorn said:
If I could get through to you one important belief that I have, because I believe it is 100% Biblical is this:

WE ARE NOT SAVED BY MERITORIOUS WORKS!!!!

I know I have already explained to you that I do not believe the gospel has meritorious works. Yet you like most all Faith alone denominations cannot get past there being all kinds of different works in Gods word. Every time you folks here the word works all you seem to understand is meritorious, meritorious, meritorious.

If works which follow saving faith in Christ stood between us and heaven that would make them meritorious. The saved by "these" works (works of obedience) and just not "those" works (meritorious works) argument is bogus.

Do you not know there are works of obedience? These works earn you nothing! There's all kinds of works, Sir.

Works of obedience are still works and we are not saved by works in general. Period. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5)

Did you answer my simple question?
Why does James bring up the demons having faith?
Your explanation does not fit the context in chapter 2.

I did but the heart of your problem is that you seem to believe that ALL faith is the same "except for the lack of good works" and cannot seem to grasp a deeper faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation, which also explains why you have so much faith in "water and works." My explanation fits the context just fine because I get to the heart of the matter that although demons may believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" (James 2:19) they do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and are not saved (Acts 16:31) which explains why they have no good works. Their trust and reliance is in Satan and not in Jesus.

You think this is why James uses the demons to contrast FAITH ALONE WITH FAITH WITH WORKS. Did you notice that you MENTIONED NOTHING ABOUT THE SUBJECT OF FAITH WITH WORKS AND FAITH WITHOUT WORKS?

Since you trust in works for salvation and don't understand the difference between an "empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone" (barren of works - James 2:14) and faith that "trusts in Christ alone for salvation" (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) I don't expect you to understand.

Instead you interpret James 2:19 as James saying they dont have a trusting faith that Jesus will save them, REALLY!!!

The trusting faith is the heart of the issue of why demons have no good works. REALLY!

You think James brings up the demons faith as proof that their faith can't save them. Do you not realize that a demon not being saved by their faith GOES WITHOUT SAYING? Do you know anybody that think demons are going to be saved?

You remain under the delusion that the faith of demons is no different than the faith of Christians and the only real difference is the demons lack good works. This remains your achilles heel.

Of course their faith cannot save them. You have missed why James uses the demons faith as an example here.

It's you who missed the heart of the issue as to why James uses the belief of demons as an example.

Look at the verses before verse 19,

James 2:14;17-20
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith AND HAVE NOT WORKS? Can faith (without works) save him?

Even so faith, if it hath not works, IS DEAD BEING ALONE.

Yeah a man may say, Thou hast faith and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works and I will shew thee my faith BY MY WORKS.

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: THE DEVILS ALSO BELIEVE(WITHOUT WORKS, THAT IS THE SUBJECT MATTER DANTHEMAILMAN !!!) And tremble.

Demons have a dead faith that does not trust in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Hence the no works being produced from their dead faith. As I already explained, in James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word!) he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. We show our faith by our works, but we do not establish it. (James 2:18) You need to remember that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

So "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. Again, if someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. Simple! You seem to remain under the delusion that if demons simply conjured up good works along with their "mental assent" belief then they would be saved. What is the heart of the issue as to why demons do not produce good works? This is what you cannot seem to grasp.

I hope this is becoming more clear to you. James is asking what kind of faith saves us. Faith with works or faith without works? The next verses James gives us the answer.

Faith that results in producing works saves because that faith is alive. Faith that results in producing no works is a dead faith and cannot save because it's not authentic faith that is alive in Christ.

James 2:20-24

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works IS DEAD?

Was not Abraham our father JUSTIFIED BY WORKS, when he offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Seest thou how FAITH WROUGHT WITH HIS WORKS (his works not Gods) and by works was faith made PERFECT?

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God(but not faith alone, he had works) and it was IMPUTED UNTO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS: (This says Abraham himself was made righteous) and he was called the friend of God.

You seem to believe that faith is dead UNTIL it produces works and that works are the source of life in faith, which is like saying that a tree is dead UNTIL it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree. You put the cart before the horse and continue to peddle salvation by works.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified (James says a MAN IS JUSTIFIED by his works) AND NOT BY FAITH ONLY. Did you catch that Danthemailman? No man is justified by Faith Alone!!! Do you believe James?

I caught it a long time ago, but you still miss the point. James is talking about an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone "barren of works." That's what he means by "faith alone." Not to be confused with salvation through faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone "apart from works." Faith that trusts in Christ alone and not in works for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) This remains your stumbling block.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD ALSO. Wow, James says your workless faith is dead like a corpse without a spirit!!! James doesn't believe what you believe Danthemailman.

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

Continued..

Danthemailman · Jun 15, 2021

Titus Dorn said:
James teaches that faith without works cannot justify a man. No justification no salvation. James 2:14 ...can faith (without works) save him? James teaches no!

James is NOT teaching that we are saved by BOTH faith AND works. Faith that merely claims to be genuine, but results in producing no works cannot justify because it's an empty profession of faith/dead faith. You continue to error by teaching salvation by works. Romans 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness." 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. DID YOU GET THAT?

ONCE AGAIN: It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony* :oldthumbsup:

"This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous"

James says Abraham's works MADE HIM RIGHTEOUS AND JUSTIFIED Not God.

I have good news for you Danthemailman, God is and has always been righteous! He doesn't need man to do things to make Him righteous.

I already know that God has always been righteous and that was my point that you missed. Abraham's works did not make him righteous. He was shown to be righteous by his works just as God was shown to be righteous when He was said to be justified. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

James said without works Abraham was not made righteous or justified. Therefore he was saved when his faith HAD WORKS NOT BEFORE. He was not justified until he had works not before.

Absolutely false! The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. *Also see Romans 4:2-6. You greatly error!

No one is saved before they are justified:
Romans 8:30 Moreover whom Be did predestinate, them He also called, them HE ALSO JUSTIFIED: AND WHOM HE JUSTIFIED, THEM HE ALSO GLORIFIED.

Romans 5:1 - Therefore, having been justified by faith, (faith and works? NO! Simply faith) we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Paul is using the term "justified" to mean accounted as righteous.

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now JUSTIFIED BY HIS BLOOD, WE SHALL BE SAVED FROM WRATH THROUGH HIM.
Clearly we see that a man is not saved until he is justified. Abraham was not justified without works (faith alone).

Abraham was accounted as righteous by faith apart from works (Romans 4:2-6) and he was shown to be righteous by works. (James 2:21,24) You cannot seem to grasp this.

Abraham, therefore was saved by Jesus' blood WHEN HIS FAITH WAS WROUGHT WITH HIS WORKS AND BY HIS WORKS HIS FAITH WAS MADE PERFECT!!! No one is saved by faith without works, James 2:19.

False! (Romans 4:2-6) We are saved by the kind of faith (living faith) that results in producing works, yet we are not saved by works. Man is saved apart from the merit of works, yet authentic faith does not remain apart from the presence of works.

But wait! Paul says Abraham was NOT SAVED BY HIS WORKS!

Amen!

Romans 4:2-3 For if Abraham were justified by works he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Could this be a contradiction in Gods perfect revelation? Nope! Paul and James are in perfect harmony.

The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." When Paul uses the term, he is using it to describe how God accounts the believer as righteous. James however is using it to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by their works.

Remember when I said you can't seem to get past works being only works of merit? Well, now you are going to learn that there are works that cannot save and works of obedience that God commands in His gospel that we must do for God to give us His grace and save us!

I hear this same bogus argument from Roman Catholics in a desperate effort to "get around" Romans 4:2-6. Your argument amounts to sugar coated double talk and Campbellite smoke and mirrors.

Romans 4:2-3 = Acts 13:39
And by Him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified BY THE LAW OF MOSES.
Abraham was not justified, saved by works of the old law says Paul in Romans 4:2-3. But James says Abraham was saved, justified by works.

Of course Abraham was not saved by works of the old law. ABRAHAM WAS BEFORE THE LAW! Nice try, but you are not fooling me. This isn't my first rodeo and I've heard all of your bogus arguments before. Numerous times!

What kind of works James?
WORKS OF OBEDIENCE THAT COMES FROM FAITH, TRUST IN GOD!

The only faith that saves is an obedient faith. Never faith alone.

Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith. But not the essence of faith and also not the basis or means by which we are saved. Faith that saves results in obedience, but we are still saved through faith in Christ and not based on the merits of obedience which follows.

Faith + works, obedient works never meritorious (works of the law of Moses) but works of obedience in Jesus' gospel. This obedient faith is Biblical saving faith.

Faith + works for salvation = meritorious works no matter how much you try to sugar coat it. Jesus' gospel is not the Campbellite gospel of salvation by "water and works." You clearly teach salvation by faith AND works in contradiction to scripture. (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5)

Works of obedience in Jesus' gospel :

Belief Mark 16:15-16

Repentance Acts 2:38

Confession Romans 10:9-10

Water immersion, Acts 2:38; Mark 16:15-16; 1Peter 3:20-21; Acts 22:16;

You cannot be saved if you do not believe Jesus' words, in His gospel, John 5:24.

Your false gospel is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics. Of course we must first hear the gospel before we can repent (change our mind) and believe the gospel (by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation - Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation, but are chronologically together. (Romans 10:8-10) Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach). Water baptism "follows" repentance unto life/saving belief/faith in Christ. (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18)

Danthemailman · Jun 15, 2021

Titus Dorn said:
1 John 3:7 Little children, let no ,man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous.

1 John 3:7 - Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.

Children of God do not practice righteousness in order to become righteous, but BECAUSE they are righteous; just as children of the devil do not practice sin in order to become children of the devil but BECAUSE they are children of the devil.

Titus Dorn · Jun 15, 2021

You are gulity of cherry picking the verses that fit your interpretation of Paul's writings and James writings.

You are also guilty of misinterpreting James on works, faith and how they both relate to salvation. And Paul, you put words in Paul's mouth when you claim he taught Abraham was saved by faith and no obedience.

Here is a Biblical fact. We are only saved by an obedient faith. Never by Faith alone. And that is the point that James is making. The whole point of James' teaching in chapter 2 is faith by itself cannot save. Only an obedient faith saves. Obedience cannot be without works. They are one in the same.

Hebrews 5:8-9
Though He were a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered; And being made perfect, He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that OBEY HIM.
The new testament teaches that the only kind of faith that saves is an obedient faith. James says this saving faith only saves when one has works of obedience, justl ike Abraham's faith.

The Bible proves that both James and Paul teach Abraham was saved by an obedient faith not faith without works(obedience to Gods commands).

Paul is teaching christians in Romans. He is teaching them not to bind the old law on Christians. Paul explains that the law of Moses cannot save.

You are correct that Abraham was not under the law of Moses. This is why Paul uses Abraham as the example of faith in God that saves not law keeping in the Mosaical law. You miss the point of Paul using Abraham as the example against trying to be justified by keeping the old law. Paul's whole reason to use Abraham is to teach that an obedient faith is what saves man not the law of Moses.

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Here Paul uses Abraham as an example of a man that was not saved by working his way to heaven. Which is exactly what Jews under the law of Moses were trying to do at the time of Paul's writing in Romans. Hence why Paul uses Abraham as their example of how faith in God saves not law keeping since Abraham is their father in the flesh.

Acts 13:39 And by Him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scriptures? Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness

Now you say this belief that made Abraham righteous was without obedience. Only faith with no works.

If you are correct then James is wrong. For your interpretation of Romans 4:3 does not fit with James 2:21,

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our Father JUSTIFIED BY WORKS, when he offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Now listen to yourself contradict James. You said Abraham was NOT justified by his works,

Danthemailman said:
. Abraham's works did not make him righteous.

You have contradicted James and Paul when you say Abraham was righteous before obedience. Abraham's faith was never a faith of just belief with no action taken because of his belief.

If Abraham never did works and just had faith alone. God would have never made Abraham righteous and justified.

Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

What kind of faith did Abraham have that made him righteous? Not the kind that you say saves.

Your not in agreement with Paul or James. You are contradicting them.

Danthemailman said:
Abraham was accounted as righteous by faith apart from works (Romans 4:2-6)

This is a direct contradiction of James' teaching,

James 2:21;24
Was not Abraham our Father justified by works, when he offered Isaac his son in the altar?

24 You see then how that BY works a man is JUSTIFIED, and NOT by faith only?

You are twisting the teaching of James when you claim he was not teaching that works with belief is what made Abraham righteous. Rather you reinterpret James to say that Abraham's works only gave evidence of his salvation, his faith BUT HIS WORKS PLAYED NO PART IN MAKING HIM RIGHTEOUS AND JUSTIFIED. You are either ignorantly teaching false doctrine or intentionally trying to deceive others into believing in the false gospel of Sola Fide. I hope you are ignorant, Sir. Definitely deceived unfortunately. You cannot even see that you contradict James every time you say he was not saved by his obedient faith.

You have falsely claimed Abraham was saved before he did works and offered his son isaac on the altar. That he was righteous by his belief alone. This is not what James said at all. You have the false belief of OSAS. Would Abraham continued to have an obedient saving faith if he only believed God but refused to offer his son Isaac on the altar? If he just had faith alone but no obedience? Would God call Abraham righteous and justified if he did not DO the commands God had given him? You say yes, Abraham would be accounted as righteous BEFORE he obeyed God and sacrificed his son on the altar, just belief only. The Bible contradicts your beliefs.

Danthemailman said:
Abraham was accounted as righteous by faith apart from works (Romans 4:2-6)

Genesis 22:9-12 And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bond Isaac his son and laid him on the altar upon the wood.

And Abraham stretched forth his hand and took the knife to slay his son.

And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven and said Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here I am.

And He said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou anything unto him: FOR NOW I KNOW THAT THOU FEAREST GOD, SEEING THOU HAST WITHELD THY SON, THINE ONLY SON FROM ME.

Answer my question: Why does God now say He knows Abraham fears Him? According to your belief, God should had already known that Abraham respected God by his faith alone. But this is not what the scriptures teach.

Also Abraham was richly blessed by God when?

Only when Abraham had belief only?

Or when Abraham believed and Obeyed God?

We know the answer.

If Abraham had not obeyed Gods commands OUT OF FAITH THAT GOD KNEW BEST. He would not of had SAVING BIBLICAL FAITH!

The Bible demonstrates saving faith over and over to be a faith that obeys. True belief will do what God says to do. A lack of true Biblical faith will not do what God commands, Mark 16:15-16. Faith alone never saves because it is a lack of faith. Those who trust in their own faith to save them will not obey Jesus by admitting that it is a direct COMMAND to be baptized for the remission of ones sins.

Just as James says the kind of faith that saved Abraham faith +obedient works. Is the same kind of faith Abraham had from the beginning, Genesis 15:6. Only this faith can save. Never faith alone, James 2:19

Genesis 15:6 And he believed the Lord; and He counted it to him for righteousness. = Romans 4:3 = James 2:21;24 = Genesis 22:12

James 2:22;23;24
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

And the scripture WAS FULFILLED WHICH SAITH, Abraham believed God and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the friend of God,(Genesis 15:6)

Ye see then how that BY works a man is justified and not faith only?

Abraham according to James and Paul was not imputed from God to be made righteous before he obeyed God with a dead worthless unobedient faith. As you claim. Only was Abraham called the friend of God when his faith moved him to obey Gods commandments.

You change the meaning of James chapter 2 when you claim that James is not teaching that faith without works does not save. James is teaching that faith with no works cannot save. Not what you claim he is saying, that works only gives evidence of our salvation.

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith(no obedience) and have not works? CAN FAITH(ALONE) SAVE HIM?

You are again wrong that James is not teaching that faith without obedient works cannot save. You have added your doctrinal beliefs into the text. And taken away the true teaching of James. Stop believing what the baptist sect that is created by a bunch of John Smyth followers , claims to be the teachings of James in chapter 2.

Paul includes works in saving faith,

Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Danthemailman · Jun 15, 2021

Titus Dorn said:
You are gulity of cherry picking the verses that fit your interpretation of Paul's writings and James writings.

That statement is the epitome of irony. You need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine instead of distorting passages of scripture in an effort to "patch together" your so called gospel plan.

You are also guilty of misinterpreting James on works, faith and how they both relate to salvation. And Paul, you put words in Paul's mouth when you claim he taught Abraham was saved by faith and no obedience.

You are guilty of misinterpreting James and Paul on faith and works. Paul could not have been any clearer in Romans 4:2-6. Also, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came through faith.

Here is a Biblical fact. We are only saved by an obedient faith. Never by Faith alone. And that is the point that James is making.

The Biblical fact is obedience/works "follows" saving faith in Christ. We are not saved not by faith and works, but by faith in Christ alone. (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5 etc..). Stop fighting against the truth!

The whole point of James' teaching in chapter 2 is faith by itself cannot save. Only an obedient faith saves. Obedience cannot be without works. They are one in the same.

James is talking about an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. SAYS/CLAIMS to have faith. (James 2:14) Obedience/works "follows" saving faith in Christ. We are saved by grace through faith, not works and created in Christ Jesus FOR good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10) You continue to put the cart before the horse and teach salvation by works.

Hebrews 5:8-9
Though He were a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered; And being made perfect, He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that OBEY HIM.
The new testament teaches that the only kind of faith that saves is an obedient faith. James says this saving faith only saves when one has works of obedience, justl ike Abraham's faith.

This is just your misguided way of saying we are saved by faith AND WORKS. Hebrews 5:8-9 is another passage of scripture that is often misinterpreted by works-salvationists in order to promote salvation by works. Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by practicing righteousness and not sin. (1 John 3:7-10). In either sense, only believers obey Him. Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so-called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation by works. So in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.

The Bible proves that both James and Paul teach Abraham was saved by an obedient faith not faith without works (obedience to Gods commands).

Abraham was saved when he believed God and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3) many years before his obedient act of offering up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

Paul is teaching christians in Romans. He is teaching them not to bind the old law on Christians. Paul explains that the law of Moses cannot save.

You are correct that Abraham was not under the law of Moses. This is why Paul uses Abraham as the example of faith in God that saves not law keeping in the Mosaical law. You miss the point of Paul using Abraham as the example against trying to be justified by keeping the old law. Paul's whole reason to use Abraham is to teach that an obedient faith is what saves man not the law of Moses.

More sugar coated double talk. When it comes to the moral aspect of the law of Moses, you cannot dissect good works from the law. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 22:37-40; James 2:15-16)

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. Here Paul uses Abraham as an example of a man that was not saved by working his way to heaven. Which is exactly what Jews under the law of Moses were trying to do at the time of Paul's writing in Romans. Hence why Paul uses Abraham as their example of how faith in God saves not law keeping since Abraham is their father in the flesh.

How could Abraham be justified by the law of Moses when Abraham was BEFORE Moses? Paul is talking about works in general that Abraham was not justified "accounted as righteous" by and not merely specific works of the law of Moses.

Acts 13:39 And by Him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scriptures? Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness

Again, you cannot dissect good works from the moral aspect of the law of Moses, so your saved by "these" works and just not "those" works argument is bogus.

Now you say this belief that made Abraham righteous was without obedience. Only faith with no works.

Your argument is with Paul in Romans 4:2-6 and not with me. You so desperately want to be saved by works and boast, but it's not going to happen. We are saved by grace through faith, NOT WORKS. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

If you are correct then James is wrong. For your interpretation of Romans 4:3 does not fit with James 2:21,

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our Father JUSTIFIED BY WORKS, when he offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Now listen to yourself contradict James. You said Abraham was NOT justified by his works,

My interpretation of Romans 4:3 fits perfectly with James 2:21 because Paul is using the term "justified" in the sense of "accounted as righteous" and James is using the term "justified" in the sense of "shown to be righteous." Paul said that Abraham was not justified by works "accounted as righteous" in Romans 4:2-3 so the contradiction is on you by trying to teach that Abraham was saved by works.

You have contradicted James and Paul when you say Abraham was righteous before obedience. Abraham's faith was never a faith of just belief with no action taken because of his belief.

Paul proves you dead wrong in Romans 4:2-6, which remains your achilles heel.

If Abraham never did works and just had faith alone. God would have never made Abraham righteous and justified.

Abraham was justified by faith many years before his act of obedience in Genesis 22. If Abraham would have refused to offer up Isaac on the altar, then he would have shown that his profession of faith in Genesis 15 was bogus, but of course, that was not the case.

Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

What kind of faith did Abraham have that made him righteous? Not the kind that you say saves.

Your not in agreement with Paul or James. You are contradicting them.

Genesis 15:5 - Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness. Plain and simple. Nothing here about Abraham believing and accomplishing a check list of works then after that God accounted his faith as righteousness.

This is a direct contradiction of James' teaching,

James 2:21;24
Was not Abraham our Father justified by works, when he offered Isaac his son in the altar?

24 You see then how that BY works a man is JUSTIFIED, and NOT by faith only?

No contradiction at all and you just don't have ears to hear.

By works a man is justified "shown to be righteous" and not by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works."

You are twisting the teaching of James when you claim he was not teaching that works with belief is what made Abraham righteous.

You are twisting the words of James when you claim he is teaching salvation by works. How many times do I need to explain to you that James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous and that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3) before the truth finally sinks in?

Rather you reinterpret James to say that Abraham's works only gave evidence of his salvation, his faith BUT HIS WORKS PLAYED NO PART IN MAKING HIM RIGHTEOUS AND JUSTIFIED.

That is not reinterpreting James but is correctly interpreting James. Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of saving faith in Christ, but not the essence of faith and also not the basis or means by which we obtain salvation.

You are either ignorantly teaching false doctrine or intentionally trying to deceive others into believing in the false gospel of Sola Fide. I hope you are ignorant, Sir. Definitely deceived unfortunately. You cannot even see that you contradict James every time you say he was not saved by his obedient faith.

It's you who is deceived and you are really beginning to sound arrogant. Your church indoctrination keeps you from seeing the truth that man is saved by grace through faith, not works.

You have falsely claimed Abraham was saved before he did works and offered his son isaac on the altar. That he was righteous by his belief alone. This is not what James said at all.

That is not a false claim and is absolutely what scripture teaches. Again in James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous. *This is in perfect harmony with Romans 4:2-6.* :oldthumbsup:

Danthemailman · Jun 15, 2021

Titus Dorn said:
You have the false belief of OSAS. Would Abraham continued to have an obedient saving faith if he only believed God but refused to offer his son Isaac on the altar? If he just had faith alone but no obedience? Would God call Abraham righteous and justified if he did not DO the commands God had given him? You say yes, Abraham would be accounted as righteous BEFORE he obeyed God and sacrificed his son on the altar, just belief only. The Bible contradicts your beliefs.

If you believe that salvation is obtained by works then you will naturally believe that it's also maintained by works as well, so of course you hold to the false belief of NOSAS. Abraham's faith did not remain alone because his faith was authentic. Abraham believed God and his faith was accounted as righteousness in Genesis 15:6 many years BEFORE he offered up his son Isaac in Genesis 22. Period. Deal with it. Your beliefs are in contradiction with the Bible.

Genesis 22:9-12 And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bond Isaac his son and laid him on the altar upon the wood.

And Abraham stretched forth his hand and took the knife to slay his son.

And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven and said Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here I am.

And He said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou anything unto him: FOR NOW I KNOW THAT THOU FEAREST GOD, SEEING THOU HAST WITHELD THY SON, THINE ONLY SON FROM ME.

Answer my question: Why does God now say He knows Abraham fears Him? According to your belief, God should had already known that Abraham respected God by his faith alone. But this is not what the scriptures teach.

Also Abraham was richly blessed by God when?

Only when Abraham had belief only?

Or when Abraham believed and Obeyed God?

We know the answer.

God is omniscient and knew that Abraham feared him from the beginning. This was no surprise to God and what God said was for our benefit. When was Abraham's faith accounted as righteousness? In Genesis 15:6 when he believed God or not until many years later, after he offered up Isaac on the alter? We know the answer. It's also found in Romans 4:2-3. Just deal with it and stop fighting against the truth.

If Abraham had not obeyed Gods commands OUT OF FAITH THAT GOD KNEW BEST. He would not of had SAVING BIBLICAL FAITH!

Yet that was not the case because Abraham did have saving Biblical faith, even many years before he offered up Isaac in Genesis 22.

The Bible demonstrates saving faith over and over to be a faith that obeys. True belief will do what God says to do. A lack of true Biblical faith will not do what God commands, Mark 16:15-16. Faith alone never saves because it is a lack of faith. Those who trust in their own faith to save them will not obey Jesus by admitting that it is a direct COMMAND to be baptized for the remission of ones sins.

True belief/faith results in obedience to what God commands AFTER we have been saved through faith. Faith trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and not merely in faith itself or in water and works. Water baptism "follows" having been saved through faith. (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18)

Just as James says the kind of faith that saved Abraham faith + obedient works. Is the same kind of faith Abraham had from the beginning, Genesis 15:6. Only this faith can save. Never faith alone, James 2:19

You still cannot discern the difference between a dead faith that remains alone/barren of works and faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation. This remains your stumbling block to faith in Christ alone for salvation. Your faith is in works (at least in part) which renders Christ an IN-sufficient Savior.

Genesis 15:6 And he believed the Lord; and He counted it to him for righteousness. = Romans 4:3 = James 2:21;24 = Genesis 22:12

James 2:22;23;24
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

And the scripture WAS FULFILLED WHICH SAITH, Abraham believed God and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the friend of God,(Genesis 15:6)

Ye see then how that BY works a man is justified and not faith only?

I already thoroughly explained this to you multiple times. Go back and read posts #109 and #110 again. Read it slowly and prayerfully consider the truth this time.

Abraham according to James and Paul was not imputed from God to be made righteous before he obeyed God with a dead worthless unobedient faith. As you claim. Only was Abraham called the friend of God when his faith moved him to obey Gods commandments.

Faith that is accounted as righteous is not a dead worthless faith and it results in producing works because it's alive. Works do not precede being accounted as righteous. They follow. You can't seem to get that through your head.

You change the meaning of James chapter 2 when you claim that James is not teaching that faith without works does not save. James is teaching that faith with no works cannot save. Not what you claim he is saying, that works only gives evidence of our salvation.

I changed nothing and properly considered the context before reaching my conclusion. Until you accept the fact that James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous and that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3) you will remain in your state of confusion and continue to peddle your works based false gospel.

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith (no obedience) and have not works? CAN FAITH (ALONE) SAVE HIM?

Click to expand...

Once again, in James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So for the umpteenth time, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

You are again wrong that James is not teaching that faith without obedient works cannot save.

Faith in Christ saves and obedient works "follow" as the demonstrative evidence of authentic faith that is alive in Christ. You continue to trust in works for salvation instead of Christ alone.

You have added your doctrinal beliefs into the text. And taken away the true teaching of James. Stop believing what the baptist sect that is created by a bunch of John Smyth followers, claims to be the teachings of James in chapter 2.

It's you who has added your biased church doctrine into the text. It's called eisegesis. You believe and follow the teachings of Thomas and Alexander Campbell. Your deep indoctrination keeps you from accepting the truth.

Paul includes works in saving faith,

Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Faith works by love does not mean that acts of love/charity are included in the essence of faith. This is what I call trying to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith, which is so common in the churches of Christ. (Campbellism)

Titus Dorn · Jun 16, 2021

Danthemailman said:
Also, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came through faith.

Yes, yes, your sect had to come up with a way to explain James so that it can fit in your private interpretation of no obedience, belief only salvation. No works just belief.

One of the major founders of faith without obedience is the old corrupt Martin Luther. He would have also eventually figured out a scheme to change what James is really teaching in his epistle. All this time has passed since Luther and his followers like yourself have had time to think of a way to explain what "James is really saying".

Luther would be proud of his deceived followers for coming up with a better argument than he had for James. For Martin Luther decided the best thing to do about James' teaching contradicting his own false gospel, was to discredit James' revelation and lie that it was a "strawy epistle ". Luther knew it contradicts Sola Fide so he went as far as claiming that it was not a part of the cannon!!!

That's who you are really working for Danthemailman! Not defending the faith of Jesus Christ but the faith of Martin Luther. So sad.

Danthemailman · Jun 16, 2021

Titus Dorn said:
Yes, yes, your sect had to come up with a way to explain James so that it can fit in your private interpretation of no obedience, belief only salvation. No works just belief.

One of the major founders of faith without obedience is the old corrupt Martin Luther. He would have also eventually figured out a scheme to change what James is reallying teaching in his epistle. All this time has passed since Luther and his followers like yourself have had time to think of a way to explain what "James is really saying".

Luther would be proud of his deceived followers for coming up with a better argument than he had for James. For Martin Luther decided the best thing to do about James' teaching contradicting his own false gospel, was to discredit James' revelation and lie that it was a "strawy epistle ". Luther knew it contradicts Sola Fide so he went as far as claiming that it was not a part of the cannon!!!

That's who you are really working for Danthemailman! Not defending the faith of Jesus Christ but the faith of Martin Luther. So sad.

Obedience/works which "follow" saving belief/faith in Christ are the fruit of salvation, but never the root of it. Salvation by faith + works is a false gospel and renders Christ an IN-sufficient Savior. Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. (Romans 3:24-28) No supplements needed. You really need to stop fighting against the truth.

Sadly, you defend the faith of Campbellism and not the faith of Jesus Christ. BTW Martin Luther had no influence whatsoever on my conversion, so enough with the straw man argument.

Titus Dorn · Jun 16, 2021

Titus Dorn said:
Yes, yes, your sect had to come up with a way to explain James so that it can fit in your private interpretation of no obedience, belief only salvation. No works just belief.

One of the major founders of faith without obedience is the old corrupt Martin Luther. He would have also eventually figured out a scheme to change what James is reallying teaching in his epistle. All this time has passed since Luther and his followers like yourself have had time to think of a way to explain what "James is really saying".

Luther would be proud of his deceived followers for coming up with a better argument than he had for James. For Martin Luther decided the best thing to do about James' teaching contradicting his own false gospel, was to discredit James' revelation and lie that it was a "strawy epistle ". Luther knew it contradicts Sola Fide so he went as far as claiming that it was not a part of the cannon!!!

That's who you are really working for Danthemailman! Not defending the faith of Jesus Christ but the faith of Martin Luther. So sad.

Danthemailman said:
Also, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous

This cannot be what James is teaching. In order for your interpretation to be true, now listen closely to what I am explaining to you Sir. Your sect ASSUMES JAMES BELIEVES FAITH ALONE IS SALVATION. Is that what James says in chapter 2? No, how could you miss what James taught? You are putting words in James' mouth with starting with a false premise. James never ever said once in all of his writings that salvation without obedience is his position.

Look it is simple to show James is not teaching what you claim he is teaching.

You claim James has already given his position that faith without works saves.

You claim James' whole point about works with belief is to prove that one has a genuine true saving faith by the evidence of good works.

This is simply not what James is teaching as I have already proven. Verse 14 proves what James is really saying about faith with no works.

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith(only) and have not works ? CAN FAITH(WITHOUT WORKS) SAVE HIM.

You see how James does not teach that faith alone saves in chapter 2? James is asking the question if faith alone without works can save not that faith alone saves and works are the evidence of genuine faith.

Now that we have established what James' teaching is really about: CAN FAITH ALONE APART FROM WORKS SAVE. Not your misinterpretation of FAITH ALONE SAVES AND WORKS IS THE EVIDENCE OF A GENUINE FAITH. Are you going to continue to ignore James question in verse 14? It is not a given that faith without works saves!!!! James never said that, SO WHY ARE YOU SAYING SOMETHING JAMES DID NOT SAY?

Now for your second claim: James is not using justification to be accounted as righteous but SHOWN TO BE ALREADY RIGHTEOUS. Wrong, James taught the very opposite of what your claiming he taught here in chapter 2.

Look, this is an illogical conclusion you have come too.

How could it be possible that Abraham was already righteous before obeying Gods commands? Think about that Danthemailman. Give me an answer!!!

How could Abraham be accounted as righteous before he obeyed God and did the commands God gave him?

Your position is, I'm sorry Sir, but silly. You think Abraham was a righteous man WITHOUT OBEYING GOD!!! Are you serious?

OK, here is Abraham before obedience. God tells Abraham to go and offer his son Isaac on the altar. Your position, Abraham was already righteous, he did not have to sacrifice his son for God to count him as righteous.

So according to your faith and no obedience doctrine. Abraham would have been accounted righteous if HE DID NOT OBEY GODS COMMANDS! Do you not realize that is your position?

But you say O, no because Abraham's faith was proven to be genuine by his works. If he had not done the works God commanded him that would prove he did not have a genuine saving faith. Therefore he would not of been accounted as righteous by God.

To say this is to contradict your own position you use in James 2.

Look, Abraham COULD NOT OF BEEN RIGHTEOUS WITHOUT HIS WORKS!!!! His works is why God accounts him as righteous not before. You cannot have a genuine faith if you do not prove it with obedience to God!

This is what James is teaching. Abraham was justified when he proved his faith was genuine by obedience!

No one has an obedient genuine faith before they choose to obey God.

You have Abraham being righteous before he is obedient to God.

Let's say you gave your children laws to follow.

Now your children believe the laws you have given must be obeyed.

Now when are they righteous?

Before they prove themselves to have a genuine faith by obeying your laws.

Or when they act upon their faith by obeying your laws?

You teach before obedience they are already righteous!!!

Your position is not logical Sir. Gods word never teaches what you teach! Heres proof,

Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Now, you interpret this verse as God saying Abraham is righteous before obedience. That is not what this verse is teaching.

Did you not listen to James on this subject in Genesis 15:6? James is the one who explains how Abraham is righteous.

God knows everything man will do in the future. God already knows Abrahams heart in Genesis 15:6. God already knows Abraham IS OBEDIENT.

Genesis 22: is the fulfilling of Genesis 15:6. God accounts righteousness to Abraham in Genesis 15:6 not because of faith with no obedient works but because God knows he already has an obedient faith!!! That is the only kind of faith that can save! Biblical saving faith is an obedient faith, never faith without obedient works ie belief alone.

Listen to James teach exactly what I just taught,

James 2:21;22;23
Was not Abraham our father justified BY works, when he offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Seest thou how FAITH WROUGHT WITH HIS WORKS, and By works was faith made perfect?

AND THE SCRIPTURE WAS FULFILLED...... ( James is teaching about Genesis 15:6 being fulfilled. Now how was it fulfilled that Abraham was accounted as righteous? James teaches It was fulfilled by Abraham when he OBYED GOD AND DID WORKS IN GENESIS CHAPTER 22. WHEN HE OBEYED GOD BY SACRIFICING HIS SON ISAAC ON THE ALTAR. This is the faith James teaches counts us righteous, justified saved!
A faith that has works of obedience.)

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the friend of God.
Now James is going to try and help you understand as clearly as he possibly can in the very next verse, what kind of faith makes Abraham and us justified, righteous, saved.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified and not by faith only(faith without obedience).

James taught the opposite of what your sect teaches he taught. James taught Abraham was not righteous because of faith only and no obedience.

But because Abraham was accounted righteous by God in Genesis 15:6. Because Abraham had an OBEDIENT FAITH! And this is the only faith according to James that can save us,

James 2:14 What doth it profit my brethren, though a man say he hath faith and have not works? Can faith(without obedience ) save him?

James 2:24 ye see then how that BY works(obedience) a man is JUSTIFIED AND NOT BY FAITH ALONE.

Danthemailman · Jun 16, 2021

Titus Dorn said:
This cannot be what James is teaching. In order for your interpretation to be true, now listen closely to what I am explaining to you Sir. Your sect ASSUMES JAMES BELIEVES FAITH ALONE IS SALVATION. Is that what James says in chapter 2? No, how could you miss what James taught? You are putting words in James' mouth with starting with a false premise. James never ever said once in all of his writings that salvation without obedience is his position.

Look it is simple to show James is not teaching what you claim he is teaching.

You claim James has already given his position that faith without works saves.

You claim James' whole point about works with belief is to prove that one has a genuine true saving faith by the evidence of good works.

This is simply not what James is teaching as I have already proven. Verse 14 proves what James is really saying about faith with no works.

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith(only) and have not works ? CAN FAITH(WITHOUT WORKS) SAVE HIM.

You see how James does not teach that faith alone saves in chapter 2? James is asking the question if faith alone without works can save not that faith alone saves and works are the evidence of genuine faith.

Now that we have established what James' teaching is really about: CAN FAITH ALONE APART FROM WORKS SAVE. Not your misinterpretation of FAITH ALONE SAVES AND WORKS IS THE EVIDENCE OF A GENUINE FAITH. Are you going to continue to ignore James question in verse 14? It is not a given that faith without works saves!!!! James never said that, SO WHY ARE YOU SAYING SOMETHING JAMES DID NOT SAY?

Now for your second claim: James is not using justification to be accounted as righteous but SHOWN TO BE ALREADY RIGHTEOUS. Wrong, James taught the very opposite of what your claiming he taught here in chapter 2.

Look, this is an illogical conclusion you have come too.

How could it be possible that Abraham was already righteous before obeying Gods commands? Think about that Danthemailman. Give me an answer!!!

How could Abraham be accounted as righteous before he obeyed God and did the commands God gave him?

Your position is, I'm sorry Sir, but silly. You think Abraham was a righteous man WITHOUT OBEYING GOD!!! Are you serious?

OK, here is Abraham before obedience. God tells Abraham to go and offer his son Isaac on the altar. Your position, Abraham was already righteous, he did not have to sacrifice his son for God to count him as righteous.

So according to your faith and no obedience doctrine. Abraham would have been accounted righteous if HE DID NOT OBEY GODS COMMANDS! Do you not realize that is your position?

But you say O, no because Abraham's faith was proven to be genuine by his works. If he had not done the works God commanded him that would prove he did not have a genuine saving faith. Therefore he would not of been accounted as righteous by God.

To say this is to contradict your own position you use in James 2.

Look, Abraham COULD NOT OF BEEN RIGHTEOUS WITHOUT HIS WORKS!!!! His works is why God accounts him as righteous not before. You cannot have a genuine faith if you do not prove it with obedience to God!

This is what James is teaching. Abraham was justified when he proved his faith was genuine by obedience!

No one has an obedient genuine faith before they choose to obey God.

You have Abraham being righteous before he is obedient to God.

Let's say you gave your children laws to follow.

Now your children believe the laws you have given must be obeyed.

Now when are they righteous?

Before they prove themselves to have a genuine faith by obeying your laws.

Or when they act upon their faith by obeying your laws?

You teach before obedience they are already righteous!!!

Your position is not logical Sir. Gods word never teaches what you teach! Heres proof,

Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Now, you interpret this verse as God saying Abraham is righteous before obedience. That is not what this verse is teaching.

Did you not listen to James on this subject in Genesis 15:6? James is the one who explains how Abraham is righteous.

God knows everything man will do in the future. God already knows Abrahams heart in Genesis 15:6. God already knows Abraham IS OBEDIENT.

Genesis 22: is the fulfilling of Genesis 15:6. God accounts righteousness to Abraham in Genesis 15:6 not because of faith with no obedient works but because God knows he already has an obedient faith!!! That is the only kind of faith that can save! Biblical saving faith is an obedient faith, never faith without obedient works ie belief alone.

Listen to James teach exactly what I just taught,

James 2:21;22;23
Was not Abraham our father justified BY works, when he offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Seest thou how FAITH WROUGHT WITH HIS WORKS, and By works was faith made perfect?

AND THE SCRIPTURE WAS FULFILLED...... ( James is teaching about Genesis 15:6 being fulfilled. Now how was it fulfilled that Abraham was accounted as righteous? James teaches It was fulfilled by Abraham when he OBYED GOD AND DID WORKS IN GENESIS CHAPTER 22. WHEN HE OBEYED GOD BY SACRIFICING HIS SON ISAAC ON THE ALTAR. This is the faith James teaches counts us righteous, justified saved!
A faith that has works of obedience.)

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the friend of God.
Now James is going to try and help you understand as clearly as he possibly can in the very next verse, what kind of faith makes Abraham and us justified, righteous, saved.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified and not by faith only(faith without obedience).

James taught the opposite of what your sect teaches he taught. James taught Abraham was not righteous because of faith only and no obedience.

But because Abraham was accounted righteous by God in Genesis 15:6. Because Abraham had an OBEDIENT FAITH! And this is the only faith according to James that can save us,

James 2:14 What doth it profit my brethren, though a man say he hath faith and have not works? Can faith(without obedience ) save him?

James 2:24 ye see then how that BY works(obedience) a man is JUSTIFIED AND NOT BY FAITH ALONE.

I already thoroughly explained to you what James is teaching and if the truth is what you are looking for then you will find it in what I already explained to you. If accommodating your biased church doctrine is the only thing you are interested in then you won’t accept the truth no matter how many times that I explain it to you. Give it a rest. You will NEVER convince me that James is teaching salvation by works and you will NEVER convince me to withdraw my faith in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation and turn to works for salvation as a supplement and you will NEVER convert me to Campbellism.

Titus Dorn · Jun 16, 2021

Danthemailman said:
I already thoroughly explained to you what James is teaching and if the truth is what you are looking for then you will find it in what I already explained to you. If accommodating your biased church doctrine is the only thing you are interested in then you won’t accept the truth no matter how many times that I explain it to you. Give it a rest. You will NEVER convince me that James is teaching salvation by works and you will NEVER convince me to withdraw my faith in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation and turn to works for salvation as a supplement and you will NEVER convert me to Campbellism.

YOU DO NOT HAVE TRUE SAVING FAITH IN CHRIST BECAUSE YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN HIS WORDS! John 5:24.

Mark 16:15-16
And He said unto them, Go ye into all the world and preach the GOSPEL to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be danmed.

It is you who lacks faith in Christ Sir.

Not I. I believe every word that proceeds from the mouth of God, Matthew 4:4

You unfortunately only believe in some of Jesus' words but lack faith to believe and trust all of it. So sad

Danthemailman · Jun 16, 2021

Titus Dorn said:
YOU DO NOT HAVE TRUE SAVING FAITH IN CHRIST BECAUSE YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN HIS WORDS! John 5:24.

Mark 16:15-16
And He said unto them, Go ye into all the world and preach the GOSPEL to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be danmed.

It is you who lacks faith in Christ Sir.

Not I. I believe every word that proceeds from the mouth of God, Matthew 4:4

You unfortunately only believe in some of Jesus' words but lack faith to believe and trust all of it. So sad

Actually I do have true saving faith in Christ and I do believe in His words. I just don't believe in your misinterpretation of scripture. You only believe your biased interpretation of God's word.

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned.

The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) What is the one requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

*John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

My faith trusts exclusively in Christ for salvation sir. My faith trusts 100% in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation and not 50% in Christ and 50% in works. Your faith trusts in "water and works" for salvation and not 100% in Christ. It's obvious who lacks faith in Christ.

How one is saved.....

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Active Member

Active Member

Active Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads