The "patience" of Job.

Jamdoc said:

I don't think that's the question.
I suppose a point of this thread, is for Christians who suffer Chronicle Illnesses, what perspective do we look at it as.
The standard Christian view is that God doesn't want you to suffer, God doesn't cause suffering, and if you are suffering you're to be stoic about it or you deserved it (like how Job's friends treat it). As Job shows in the book, that is of no comfort. Because it points out that if God is truly not willing for you to suffer, then God is powerless to stop your suffering, and that while God must be credited for everything good that happens to you, He cannot be held responsible for anything bad that happens.

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That is not the "standard Christian view," that is the minority view of "prosperity gospel" expounders. It definitely is not the Catholic view, which praises suffering, IMO, for the sake of suffering.

But a reading of scripture certainly reveals that Christians should absolutely expect to suffer for the sake of the gospel, and as well that God does not remove all the material suffering that we face in this fallen world.

Mark Quayle said:

This reminds me of CS Lewis' book "Til We Have Faces, A Fable Retold" where the main character of the story says, "I saw well why the gods do not speak to us openly, nor let us answer. Till that word can be dug out of us, why should they hear the babble that we think we mean?"

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sounds interesting

Jamdoc said:

I don't think Job really had a problem, unless that problem was the assumption that God would only ever do pleasant things to him if he acted right. It was afterall, a test, and I think more than anything, it was to be used as an example to future generations that hey, if you haven't done anything warranting Chastisement but you're still suffering, don't lose faith (could be very easy to do), sometimes God is testing you or conditioning you.


I'm not entirely sure that the trial was necessary for Job unless God really wanted to get the point across to Job in particular that "sometimes from your perspective I'm not nice, sometimes I can seem mean, but I do it for good reasons". I think it was more for us reading it in the future or maybe to prove a point with Satan. Job just may have been the man most able to bear with the suffering God let him go through, people of lesser faith may have broken and cursed God, which would not be the example you want to be recorded. It's for our encouragement, not really Job himself.


Well like I pointed out, I think Job's afflictions were more for us rather than for Job himself.

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How can you say Job had no problem after Job said:
Job 31: 35 (“Oh, that I had someone to hear me! I sign now my defense—let the Almighty answer me; let my accuser put his indictment in writing. 36 Surely I would wear it on my shoulder, I would put it on like a crown. 37 I would give him an account of my every step; I would present it to him as to a ruler.)—

From this and previous verses Job has lower God to his level like he could argue his case before God and win. Job would not have admitted that deep in his heart early on he saw God as being like some superior human being and not above making any mistakes, so it would take a huge upheaval in Job’s life to get him to realize this weakness in himself.

Yes, personal spiritual growth has it's reward, but God in this case took a ton of stuff away from Job and it is in the time when God does physically bless obedience.
The "testing" was not for God or us, but to help Job and that helps us.

Jamdoc said:

So, I'm always lectured about how Job is the model for how a saint should suffer, and it's always told to me as that he just praised God didn't complain didn't blame God for his suffering etc. It's often with the implication that any Christian who suffers things like losses or chronic illness shouldn't complain and should never ever attribute their suffering.... but...
While it's true Job refuses to curse God (which was the bet Satan was holding with God), Job 9, 10, and especially 16 are filled with Job complaining (and understandably so, he was in a bad way and his friends were not comforting but accusatory).. and in Job 16..


Job attributes his suffering to God. The exact thing Pastors tell us not to do, and claim that Job did not do.
So.. is the book of Job then an example of what NOT to do in suffering (complain and blame God), or is it an understandable moment that God does not consider sin (because afterall, God did give the permission to Satan to cause this suffering, so God is ultimately responsible due to sovereignty)

The Psalms also contain plenty of complaints about suffering, Psalms 6, Psalms 38, in particular, although they do acknowledge that in this case they are being chastised for sin. But in Job's case he was baffled as to what he did wrong to warrant chastisement.

So with those examples, is a Christian really taught to be stoic about suffering?

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I agree. I've often wondered if the people that talk about the patience of Job have actually read the book.
He wasn't patient, he was asking God to let him die. He did refuse to curse God and he kept praying. I think that's why at the end of the book God says Job did right. Not because he was stoic or didn't complain, because he did.

Jamdoc said:

But Job (and the rest of the bible) teaches that God is the author of all things, including suffering, it's just for a Christian, that suffering serves a purpose that is ultimately good.
You can still love Jesus, even if you recognize that Jesus is ultimately responsible for some seasons of suffering in your life.

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I don't think this is quite correct. God uses suffering. But he didn't cause Job's suffering or ours. Satan and sin are the ultimate causes of all suffering.
God turns the bad to good for those who continue to listen to him.

In the end, what Job learned was "my arms are too short to box with God."

That's why he had to cry,

"He is not a mere mortal like me that I might answer him, that we might confront each other in court. If only there were someone to mediate between us, someone to bring us together, someone to remove God's rod from me, so that his terror would frighten me no more. Then I would speak up without fear of him, but as it now stands with me, I cannot. -- Job 9

We discover in Hebrews that the mediator Job cried out for is, in fact, Jesus Christ.

What we can see in Job is that Job knows God--not through revelation--but through creation itself (Psalm 19, Acts 17, Romans 1). That's why God doesn't speak to Job of His promises and exploits for Abraham or Moses, but God speaks to Job of the wonders of His creation. That's why Job speaks of creation being his teacher (Job 12).

In creation, the honest man (the one who doesn't repress the truth (Romans 1) can know there is God...but that man is frustrated because creation doesn't tell him God's plans for him. Creation doesn't tell a man God's end goal, what God's plan is and how this will all come together.

That's one of the purposes of the gospel and why we must preach it, even to people like Job who acknowledge God as they see him in creation, but are frustrated worshipping in ignorance a God they cannot know (Acts 17)

renniks said:

I don't think this is quite correct. God uses suffering. But he didn't cause Job's suffering or ours. Satan and sin are the ultimate causes of all suffering.
God turns the bad to good for those who continue to listen to him.

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I would point out that Satan had no intention of causing suffering to Job until God pointed Job out and removed Job's protection.

RDKirk said:

I would point out that Satan had no intention of causing suffering to Job until God pointed Job out and removed Job's protection.

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Really? Because I don't read it that way. Satan said he was roaming to and fro doing as he pleased.

Jamdoc said:

God is sovereign, that makes Him responsible, if He doesn't directly cause it, He allows it. Nothing happens that God does not allow.

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Of course he allows it. Big difference between causing and allowing. God isn't responsible for any man's sins, for example. He isn't responsible for our suffering. Satan is the prince of this world.
To make God responsible denies that man effects his own reality also, along with fallen angels.

Jamdoc said:

So, I'm always lectured about how Job is the model for how a saint should suffer, and it's always told to me as that he just praised God didn't complain didn't blame God for his suffering etc. It's often with the implication that any Christian who suffers things like losses or chronic illness shouldn't complain and should never ever attribute their suffering.... but...
While it's true Job refuses to curse God (which was the bet Satan was holding with God), Job 9, 10, and especially 16 are filled with Job complaining (and understandably so, he was in a bad way and his friends were not comforting but accusatory).. and in Job 16..


Job attributes his suffering to God. The exact thing Pastors tell us not to do, and claim that Job did not do.
So.. is the book of Job then an example of what NOT to do in suffering (complain and blame God), or is it an understandable moment that God does not consider sin (because afterall, God did give the permission to Satan to cause this suffering, so God is ultimately responsible due to sovereignty)

The Psalms also contain plenty of complaints about suffering, Psalms 6, Psalms 38, in particular, although they do acknowledge that in this case they are being chastised for sin. But in Job's case he was baffled as to what he did wrong to warrant chastisement.

So with those examples, is a Christian really taught to be stoic about suffering?

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No, stoicism isn't the answer for a Christian. Neither is cursing God and dying, which is Job's wife's solution.

What you were taught is also wrong; it's a very selective approach to the book.

So, what's the answer? First, there are two kinds of complaining in the Bible. One of them is done in unbelief; the Israelites in the desert are the perfect example. They failed to complain in faith.

Second, you cite some examples in the psalms; there are 73 psalms that are at least part-complaint or lament. The difference is that the psalmists are focused in true faith on their God. Look at Psalm 88, the darkest psalm, the only redeeming quality of which is that the psalmist doesn't take his attention off of God.

In our culture, we have failed to allow free expression of our anger, anxiety, and complaint when we feel them. Job expresses his heartfelt emotions to God in those chapters you mention, in addition to chapter three, where he wishes he had never been born. Yet, God says at the end after confronting Job, that he spoke well to God, in fact, much better than his judgmental "friends." Job becomes their priest.

One other comment: Job and his friends have the same defective theology. All of them believe that great sin directly causes great suffering. That's part of the source of Job's suffering; he can't understand how he was suffering so much because he had been faithful to God (not perfect: "blameless" or "perfect" does not mean completely sinless in the Hebrew but genuinely committed to
God).

Therefore, to your question, I think that we Christians need to honestly express our feelings to God in private prayer persistently over a period of time to receive God's peace of Philippians 4:6-7. Yes, tell God how you feel; people probably can't handle it, but God can, as he did with Job.

Jamdoc said:

Job knew more than just a vague God. He knew the Mosaic law and kept it, and He also knew Messianic Prophecy, and about the resurrection of the dead.
Job 19:25-27

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The information we have is that Job predates Abraham.

Jamdoc said:

Before the book of Job, we don't really have an example of God using suffering just to test someone. We have example of God using tests of obedience to test someone but not really a thing where God just makes someone suffer just to see if they can endure it in faith.
So as far as Job knew, there was a totally unknown reason that God was letting him be tormented, and he wasn't doing sins to deserve it. He wanted to know why.
It wasn't lowering God down to his level it was just him being unable to understand the purpose, and he knows God is just, and so a just God would answer and tell him the charges against him.

You can argue that God doesn't need to justify Himself for doing anything He has the right to do whatever He wants, but at the same time, everyone going to Hell will know the exact charges brought against them. That's why there is a final judgement. It's not for God. God has already made His decision on everyone. It's for all the people involved, so that they will know that God is just and nobody is judged unfairly.

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God does not need to “test” anyone, but would allow or even manipulate satan into testing someone, to help the person being tested.

Did you read this: Job 31: 35 (“Oh, that I had someone to hear me! I sign now my defense—let the Almighty answer me; let my accuser put his indictment in writing…..; I would present it to him as to a ruler

God is not like some “ruler”, but the creator of everything, perfect in knowledge and not someone you can argue with.

I am not suggesting Job is lower God to being just a man, but like a ruler that needs to answer him is lowering God.

Does that not sound like Job is asking God to come down to him and explain His actions?

Job is suggesting God made a mistake with him, just to suggest this of God is to bring God down.

Job knew he had sinned since he said: Therefore I despise myself

and repent in dust and ashes

If Job had not sinned there would not be a need for Job to repent.

Jamdoc said:

I dispute that because of the presence of the Chaldeans as an ethnic group. That doesn't fit pre-flood. That's the Babylonians. There is also the thing that Job follows Mosaic law practices, such as sin offerings for his children, in the place of not having a priest to do it at the temple because he was in a far off land. He was aware of Mosaic Law.

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Pre-flood? I said Job predates Abraham, not Noah. Reference to the Chaldeans would at least predate Moses.

If Job was aware of Mosaic Law, his references to God would have been in accordance with the miracles of God, the deliverances of the Hebrews, the promises to the Isreaelites, et cetera, as it is throiughout the rest of the post-Mosaic OT, because that's how people knew God post-Moses.

But in this cause--uniquely--all references to the works and power of God are limited strictly to God's creation. That's how Job knows Him.

Making sacrifices for their children was not unusual among ancient cultures. Some, unfortunately, even of their children.

Jamdoc said:

In this case, this was not Job's fault or responsibilities, and God directed Satan to do things to Job. God would accept responsibility in this situation, would He not?

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Did he? I didn't see that in Job. Instead he tells Job he can not possibly understand what is happening, because Job isn't the one keeping Satan in check.
God didn't direct Satan to do things, he set limits on what Satan could do.

A few things about the book:
The genre of this book is epic poetry.
The rebel angel is called (literally in Hebrew) “the satan,” meaning “the adversary, so he's not God's angel. God has to ask him, “Where have you been?” To which the satan answers, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it” (Job 1:7; 2:2). We see that the satan is not a being who operates under Yahweh’s authority.

The satan's challenge is that Job only follows God because he's been blessed by God. The satan is saying Job is a health and wealth Christian so to speak!
In other words: There are only self-serving bargains, and obedience for the sake of being protected and blessed. So, then, true holiness and virtuous obedience are an illusion.
The satan is attacking God's integrity. God could have just forced him to shut up, but that would have just confirmed his claim. So God agreed to allow Job to be tested.
Jobs friends are not such good friends it turns out. They don't really believe in Jobs integrity.
"Think now, who that was innocent ever perished?
Or where were the upright cut off?
As I have seen, those who plow iniquity
and sow trouble reap the same.
By the breath of God they perish,
and by the blast of his anger they are consumed. ” (Job 4:7-9)

This just isn't reality. Trouble doesn't only happen to bad people.
They aren't comforting Job, but themselves!
His friends theology is a way of reassuring themselves that what happened to Job couldn’t happen to them (Job 6:20-21).

They tell Job that God is disciplining him for a good reason:

“How happy is the one whom God reproves;
therefore do not despise the discipline of the Almighty.
For he wounds, but he binds up;
he strikes, but his hands heal.” (Job 5:17-18)

One of the central points of this book is to show the shallowness of this popular theology.

What most don't get is this book also refutes Job’s own theology.
When Yahweh appears at the end of this book, he no more agrees with Job’s theology than he agrees with the theology of his friends (Job 38-42).

Yahweh never acknowledges that he was the one behind Job’s suffering in his climatic speeches at the end of this book.

Instead, he appeals to factors in creation to explain to Job why he can’t understand his suffering.

Job gets the point, for when God is done talking he repents (42:6) and confesses, “I have uttered what I did not understand” (Job 42:3).

Job says all kinds of falsehoods about God:
When disaster brings sudden death,” Job says,

“[God] mocks at the calamity of the
innocent.
The earth is given into the hand of the
wicked;
He covers the eyes of its judges –
If it is not he, who then is it?” (Job 9:23-24, cf. 21:17-26, 30-32; 24:1-12)

Wrong!
What is the Almighty, that we should serve him?
And what profit do we get if we pray to him?” (Job 21:15)

We can understand Jobs questions, in light of his condition, but he was wrong about God and his love for humanity.
In times of tragedy, people often quote Job’s words “the Lord gave and the Lord has taken away” (Job 1:21) The irony is that, though they are spoken from an honest and upright heart, these words are part and parcel of a theology Job repents of.

Job passed his test not because his theology was correct, but because he did not reject God even when his theology told him he should.


The book of Job is there to teach us that we will never understand the cosmos and how men and God's actions affect reality. Not that God controls everything. It's there to show us there really is a war going on. Not that Satan is God's hitman.