Law vs Grace

Sidon said:

Try to overlay the abolished covenant on top of the New Testament, is not a wise Theology.

Also, Jesus did not offer the born again "license to sin".
He offers them "Christ always gives me the Victory".
See my Threads, as i explain this in about 15 of them.

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So if you have Victory over sin does that mean you sin or not sin? If you are not sinning, that means you are obeying the commandments and laws of God.

btw- Jesus teaches all about God's laws in the NT because God wrote them in our hearts in the New Covenant.

Sidon said:

Yes, Jesus is under the law (BTW), in The NT, until He dies on the Cross (BTW).
So, that is why He talks about it, in those verses.

Also, to understand why God does not charge sin to the born again, Romans 4:8, you have to understand that the Law is abolished.
You dont yet understand this spiritual reality.
So, me talking about "sin", isn't something you can understand, yet., because you are trying to see the spiritual reality using your natural mind.
That is a square peg trying to comprehend a round hole.


I can share this with you...
Where there is no law there is no Sin.
There is no SIN "In Christ", and the born again are "in Christ".
There is no law, in Christ..

See, if im not born again, as your theology is trying to define me, then I would be "under the law", and the law would have DOMINION over me.
It would have a right to CURSE me., and define me as a SINNER.
But now, Jesus has redeemed ME from the curse of the Law, and He has established a NEW LAW.
I exit THERE.
This is "under Grace", and that is the rule of the Kingdom of God.
So, if you are not born again, then you will need that law and those commandments to lead you to Jesus so that He can shed His blood for you, and end that CURSE that is on you.

If you are born again, then the law , or the old covenant, has been replaced (abolished) by the New Testament.
So, for the born again the law and commandments, are just lifestyle boundaries, and nothing more.

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I thought we have gone through this before. You are just repeating what has already been addressed.

I see a lot of opinions stated here without scriptures to support those opinions.

The one scripture you posted:

Romans 4:8 Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”

Does not say

Sidon said:

you have to understand that the Law is abolished.

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But we have Jesus saying:

Mathew 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

and:

Mathew 19:16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” 17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
18 “Which ones?” he inquired.
Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”

And:

John 14:15
15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. 19 “A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. 20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

After Jesus goes to Heaven He promises to manifest Himself to those who: 21 He who has My commandments and keeps them,

He never once said He abolishes the laws after He died for us. This is another man-made teaching that goes against what Jesus taught.

You might want to read this in prayer Words from our Savior:

19 “A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. 20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

There is a lot to be said in scriptures about how you love God and we show our love to God by keeping His commandments according to Jesus.

Exodus 20:6, 1 John 5:3, John 14:15, John 15:10. This is clear enough for me, if you love Jesus, keep His commandments which are written in the heart in the New Covenant.

We will have to agree to disagree.

BobRyan said:

The full quote is in Rom 2:13-16 which makes it clear that the justification is in the context of future Gospel Judgment (as vs 16 explicitly states, as has been quoted repeatedly on this thread - and ignored)

Justification is a gospel concept.

Rom 2:
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus .

It is the same context for justification that we see in James 2 --

James 2: 21 Was our father Abraham not justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Bible details affirmed by Christ in Matt 7

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; leave Me, you who practice lawlessness.’
24 “Therefore, everyone who hears these words of Mine, and acts on them, will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man

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These are Bible details that do not vanish no matter how much vitriol or ad hominem name-calling one might wish to use to dismiss them.

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Here is an interesting response to "the mere quote" of Rom 2, James 2 and Matt 7

Sidon said:

Is this mormonism or JW theology that you are sharing?

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Many Bible students here will recognize the Bible chapters being quoted in my post above - you may need more time with the Bible to see what many people notice about those scriptures instead of dismissing the Bible as "JW theology"

Sidon said:

JW, Mormons, and similar use a bible.

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Indeed a lot of Bible use among Christian groups. Not liking the Bible texts that you see quoted - cannot "blamed" on JW's and Mormons etc. Bible studens call it "sola scriptura" testing - as in Acts 17:11, I don't know if you are familiar with that or not. But it sure beats name-calling and table thumping.

Sidon said:

This is why i asked you if you are one of those brands.
You dont want to answer, so, we'll leave it there..

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Every one of my posts has my denomination listed on it. Mine just-so-happens to be what Christianity Today called the 5th largest Christian denomination in the world - back in Jan of 2015.

Feel free to do that as well. But denominational-name-calling is "also" not a compelling form of Bible study.

Sidon said:

you have to understand that the Law is abolished.

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you are quoting you again.

I prefer the actual Bible
for example Rom 3: "31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? Far from it! On the contrary, we establish the Law."

Rom 8:4-12 tells us that the lost "do not submit to the LAW of God neither indeed CAN they" - and contrasts that with the saints. John says the saints "KEEP the commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

No wonder C.H. Spurgeon, the Baptist Confession of Faith (section), and the Westminster Confession of Faith (sectn 19) - admit that the TEN are included in the LAW of God still applicable to all mankind - including the saints - and written on the heart under the Jer 31:31-34 New Covenant

Sidon said:

If you prefer the bible, them you'll prefer Paul's Gospel. '.

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Did you read Romans 2 at all???

You post as if you don't actually read the posts if they contain Bible verses...

BobRyan said:

Rom 2 - the difference between saved-vs-lost in the gospel Judgment of Christ future to Rom 2

4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and restraint and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will repay each person according to his deeds:

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life;

8 but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of mankind who does evil, for the Jew first and also for the Greek,

10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus.
..
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a violator of the Law, your circumcision has turned into uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will his uncircumcision not be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a violator of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.

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so that was....

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus.

Sidon said:

I dont teach opinion.
I teach Pauline Theology.
You should learn what that is, and then you'll understand what im doing here.

Also, the law is not abolished if you are this.....>John 3:36.
The law is not abolished for anyone who is not born again.

If you are not born again, then you are under the old covenant right now, you are a sinner, and the law has judged you as condemned to HELL.

If you are Born again, you are "under Grace",...... you are "dead to the law", and "Christ has redeemed you from the curse of the law".
In this Case, you are a citizen of the Kingdom of God, and there is no Law found there, as Christ abolished it for the born again, when He was on The Cross.

Now, the reason im explaining this to you again, is so that you can hopefully understand something.
Its this.
If God no longer charges the born again with their sin....He has to have a reason, a justification, for not charging them.

He has 2.

1.) On The Cross, God's blood paid for the sin of the world.

2.) Christ became the sin of the born again, on the Cross.

So, Here you have God's blood and death, resolving sin.
And because it IS RESOLVED for all the born again, then God does not charge the born again with their sin.
See, that? That is why Romans 4:8 ....tells you that.

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If you are going to teach on the theology of Paul, you should at least quote Paul who tells us WHAT MATTERS:

1 Corinthians 7:19 but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

Sidon said:

I dont teach opinion.

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I am interested in what leads you to say that given your posts here.

Sidon said:

Also, I dont rate the opinion of the Magazine you listed as being important

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you have free will and can express any dislike you want of more recognized sources ...

So for example I don't go around saying "Sidon said such-and-such in 2015 so this shows some sort of general agreement on something". But I do that sort of thing with an actual recognized source like ChristianityToday.

Sidon said:

Also, i dont read Christian magazines.
I might watch 40 mins of TV a day. On occasion i'll watch a Hallmark movie.

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it shows. Thanks for sharing that.

Sidon said:

I love the bible, so i love all bible verses.
If you believe that you misusing verses

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As was demonstrated - there mere quote of the text itself was sufficient cause to give rise to your strong objection to it.

you simply refer to a verbatim qoute of the text and then proceed to show why you object to the text
Friday at 10:32 AM #69

Sidon said:

Let me show you why keeping commandments is not the main thing.

Today, thousands of commandment and law keepers, died and went to hell.
Why?
Because keeping the commandments and the law is not the main thing.

What is?
Jesus said...>"You Must be born again".

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Are you arguing with Paul on what Paul thinks what matters?

Also, we are told to repent from our sins, the kingdom of heaven is at hand. True repentance means being truly sorry and turning away from sin.

Ezekiel 18:30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin.

Mathew 3:2 and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!”

If you continue sinning, there is no more sacrifice for our sins.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,


I would hate to be that person who dies unexpectedly without asking Jesus to forgive me of my sins. We should obey Jesus just because He asked and He is our Savior and Redeemer.

Sidon said:

Not at all.
I only objected to you misusing the verse to teach your particular theology.
The verse is great

Here is a favorite of mine. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy God saved us""

Notice that God's salvation is separate from your works of righteousness.

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Here's another one written by the hand of God:

Exodus 20:6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.