Orthodox teachings and saints' writings on suicide

archer75

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Does anyone know of saints' writings or other Orthodox writings that explain an Orthodox perspective on suicide. Not simply "one should not do it," but actually explain an Orthodox understanding of what it is that compels some people towards suicide? Demonic influence, a severely disordered passion?

Thank you.

Edit: This post should be taken as a request for information, not a statement of any intent on the part of the OP. Please do not "worry" about this post!
 
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ArmyMatt

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I can't think of anything specifically, aside from when the great ascetic saints battle with despair or whatever. but OCAMPR might have some stuff, as well as an Orthodox POV of behavioral health.
 
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archer75

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You left out "severe psychiatric disturbance."
I wouldn't expect the writings of pre-modern saints, to explain suicidal ideation in terms of psychiatric disturbance, so I didn't list it. Not to say that psychiatry is useless, but only that modern psychiatry has only existed for a couple centuries.
 
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SeraphimSarov

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I wouldn't expect the writings of pre-modern saints, to explain suicidal ideation in terms of psychiatric disturbance, so I didn't list it. Not to say that psychiatry is useless, but only that modern psychiatry has only existed for a couple centuries.

Yeah well a few centuries ago, I would have been thrown in some mental asylum to die because I was "demon-possessed." Just because it happened in the past few hundred years doesn't mean it must be bad.
 
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archer75

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Yeah well a few centuries ago, I would have been thrown in some mental asylum to die because I was "demon-possessed." Just because it happened in the past few hundred years doesn't mean it must be bad.
As I did say, in agreement with your final sentence quoted above, "Not to say that psychiatry is useless..." -- I simply did not particularly expect most of the saints to frame the matter in the vocabulary of modern psychiatry. If I was wrong, if even any saints or other noteworthy Orthodox writers do use such terms, then direction to texts by those people would fit on this thread and I would be glad to see them in order to correct my ignorance, which was the entire point of the thread.

If these written remarks by psychiatrists or others in behavioral health do not "explain an Orthodox perspective on suicide," then they would fall outside the purpose of the thread.
 
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rusmeister

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Any “psyche-“ science has the problem of purporting, in its very name, to deal with the soul. While it is true that these sciences can occasionally be helpful, mostly insofar as they identify physical problems that give rise to distress, depression, etc, they tend to leave the spiritual out altogether. Even Orthodox psychology is not entirely immune to this, as the education that produces the teaching is secular and not, generally speaking, founded on the Orthodox understanding of the human person. Thus, such sciences should not be implicitly trusted.
 
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SeraphimSarov

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Any “psyche-“ science has the problem of purporting, in its very name, to deal with the soul. While it is true that these sciences can occasionally be helpful, mostly insofar as they identify physical problems that give rise to distress, depression, etc, they tend to leave the spiritual out altogether. Even Orthodox psychology is not entirely immune to this, as the education that produces the teaching is secular and not, generally speaking, founded on the Orthodox understanding of the human person. Thus, such sciences should not be implicitly trusted.

How in the world do you find someone who can treat the neurochemical processes that cause mental disorders (arguably) as well as the spirit? I'm not about to start seeing some quack who claims to understand science but also subscribes to Protestant nonsense. I'd gladly talk to someone who's Orthodox, but the priests I've met admit themselves that they have little understanding of psychiatric issues...

I'm also really having trouble with what seems to be your outright rejection of science. You deny that neurotransmitters in mentally ill people are not firing properly and causing problems? This is a genuine question.
 
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Petros2015

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For myself, scripturally the parable of the talents has held me back from this at some dark times.
"Here is your talent back Master, I buried it in the ground"
Is not far from the position of suicide, allegorically
 
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buzuxi02

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There maybe things written on factors towards suicide by the more recent ascetics. Stuff about an increase in demonic activity and occult leading towards nihilism, prelest and ultimately suicide.

The Church Fathers wrote against suicide on the backdrop of gnostic and philosophical sects who disparaged the body and the material world as near worthless. These sects saw no problem with suicide especially for the destitute and what they saw as essentially the "losers" of society, they viewed it as a justifiable release from their dire situations.
Christianity always required penance after committing certain grave sins and before being admitted back to the chalice, and with suicide no ability of penance becomes possible. The church view on anthropology differed from many of the contemporary sects of their time where suicide was just destroying your inferior external vessel.

The Church always viewed commiting suicide differently for being insane or out of your mind than for killing yourself over regular hardship or misfortune. In the latter case you are traditionally denied a church funeral and in the former case church funerals are permitted.
 
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rusmeister

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How in the world do you find someone who can treat the neurochemical processes that cause mental disorders (arguably) as well as the spirit? I'm not about to start seeing some quack who claims to understand science but also subscribes to Protestant nonsense. I'd gladly talk to someone who's Orthodox, but the priests I've met admit themselves that they have little understanding of psychiatric issues...

I'm also really having trouble with what seems to be your outright rejection of science. You deny that neurotransmitters in mentally ill people are not firing properly and causing problems? This is a genuine question.
"Seems" is the operative word there.
What is the place of science in the true view of the world? Can you say? What are its limits? Where does its authority extend? How reliable IS its authority? I reject worldly knowledge that claims authority equal to or superior to the teachings of the Church. I don't "reject science". I take medicine. I fly on airplanes and drive a car. I know that science is useful in its proper place. But for many today, it occupies an improper place, and is effectively treated as something with authority to correct the eternal teachings of the Church. An entire attitude exists of "We know better (than our ancestors/the saints and fathers of the Church) because they didn't know about the composition of atoms or of neurochemical processes", and so, Church teaching "becomes outdated" or is in some way superseded by modern worldly understandings.
The knowledge of neurochemical processes is overrated. It will be superseded by some other form of "knowledge", if civilization does not destroy itself due to human sin, as civilizations generally do. Scientific knowledge is passing and conditional, and always doomed (if honestly held and conducted) to question itself. Sometimes it can help alleviate conditions that are fundamentally of the Fall, and then it should be accepted and used, but it should be kept in its place. We live in a time of scientism, the de facto worship of science, that naturally follows the abandonment of genuine philosophy, which falls apart when theology goes wrong/is abandoned, when people stop praying as they should. Thus, philosophy, to say nothing of logic, dialectic, and rhetoric, is not taught in the schools, leaving a vacuum that fallen human scientists are only too happy to exploit, becoming the priests of the modern age, to whom all look for salvation.
 
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Petros2015

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Possibly this fellow, but I'm not sure

Evagrius Ponticus - OrthodoxWiki

Evagrius Ponticus - Wikipedia

Guide to Evagrius Ponticus: The Life of Evagrius Ponticus

The most prominent feature of his research was a system of categorizing various forms of temptation. He developed a comprehensive list in AD 375 of eight evil thoughts (λογισμοὶ), or eight terrible temptations, from which all sinful behavior springs. This list was intended to serve a diagnostic purpose: to help readers identify the process of temptation, their own strengths and weaknesses, and the remedies available for overcoming temptation.

Evagrius stated, "The first thought of all is that of love of self; after this, the eight"[16][page needed]

The eight patterns of evil thought are gluttony, lust, greed, sadness, acedia [despondency], anger, vainglory, pride.[17] Some two centuries later in 590 AD, Pope Gregory I, "Pope Gregory The Great" would revise this list to form the more commonly known Seven Deadly Sins, where Pope Gregory the Great combined acedia (despondency) with tristitia (sorrow), calling the combination the sin of sloth; vainglory with pride; and added envy to the list of "Seven Deadly Sins".
 
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rusmeister

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And while not technically Orthodox, (but fully, I think, in line with the teachings buzuxi refers to), GK Chesterton offers some serious thoughts on why we have always condemned the act (from what is one of the few most important general Christian books ever written, and a major reason why I don't walk out on the Church):

"Under the lengthening shadow of Ibsen,
an argument arose whether it was not a very nice thing to murder
one's self. Grave moderns told us that we must not even say
"poor fellow," of a man who had blown his brains out, since he was
an enviable person, and had only blown them out because of their
exceptional excellence. Mr. William Archer even suggested that in
the golden age there would be penny-in-the-slot machines, by which
a man could kill himself for a penny. In all this I found myself
utterly hostile to many who called themselves liberal and humane.
Not only is suicide a sin, it is the sin. It is the ultimate and
absolute evil, the refusal to take an interest in existence; the refusal
to take the oath of loyalty to life. The man who kills a man,
kills a man. The man who kills himself, kills all men;
as far as he is concerned he wipes out the world. His act is worse
(symbolically considered) than any rape or dynamite outrage.
For it destroys all buildings: it insults all women. The thief is
satisfied with diamonds; but the suicide is not: that is his crime.
He cannot be bribed, even by the blazing stones of the Celestial City.
The thief compliments the things he steals, if not the owner of them.
But the suicide insults everything on earth by not stealing it.
He defiles every flower by refusing to live for its sake. There is
not a tiny creature in the cosmos at whom his death is not a sneer.
When a man hangs himself on a tree, the leaves might fall off in anger
and the birds fly away in fury: for each has received a personal affront.
Of course there may be pathetic emotional excuses for the act.
There often are for rape, and there almost always are for dynamite.
But if it comes to clear ideas and the intelligent meaning of things,
then there is much more rational and philosophic truth in the
burial at the cross-roads and the stake driven through the body,
than in Mr. Archer's suicidal automatic machines. There is a meaning
in burying the suicide apart. The man's crime is different from
other crimes--for it makes even crimes impossible.

About the same time I read a solemn flippancy by some free thinker:
he said that a suicide was only the same as a martyr. The open fallacy
of this helped to clear the question. Obviously a suicide is the
opposite of a martyr. A martyr is a man who cares so much for
something outside him, that he forgets his own personal life.
A suicide is a man who cares so little for anything outside him,
that he wants to see the last of everything. One wants something
to begin: the other wants everything to end. In other words,
the martyr is noble, exactly because (however he renounces the world
or execrates all humanity) he confesses this ultimate link with life;
he sets his heart outside himself: he dies that something may live.
The suicide is ignoble because he has not this link with being:
he is a mere destroyer; spiritually, he destroys the universe.
And then I remembered the stake and the cross-roads, and the queer fact
that Christianity had shown this weird harshness to the suicide.
For Christianity had shown a wild encouragement of the martyr.
Historic Christianity was accused, not entirely without reason,
of carrying martyrdom and asceticism to a point, desolate and pessimistic.
The early Christian martyrs talked of death with a horrible happiness.
They blasphemed the beautiful duties of the body: they smelt the grave
afar off like a field of flowers. All this has seemed to many the
very poetry of pessimism. Yet there is the stake at the crossroads
to show what Christianity thought of the pessimist.

This was the first of the long train of enigmas with which Christianity
entered the discussion. And there went with it a peculiarity
of which I shall have to speak more markedly, as a note of all
Christian notions, but which distinctly began in this one.
The Christian attitude to the martyr and the suicide was not what
is so often affirmed in modern morals. It was not a matter of degree.
It was not that a line must be drawn somewhere, and that the self-slayer
in exaltation fell within the line, the self-slayer in sadness
just beyond it. The Christian feeling evidently was not merely
that the suicide was carrying martyrdom too far. The Christian feeling
was furiously for one and furiously against the other: these two things
that looked so much alike were at opposite ends of heaven and hell.
One man flung away his life; he was so good that his dry bones
could heal cities in pestilence. Another man flung away life;
he was so bad that his bones would pollute his brethren's.
I am not saying this fierceness was right; but why was it so fierce?

Here it was that I first found that my wandering feet were in
some beaten track. Christianity had also felt this opposition
of the martyr to the suicide: had it perhaps felt it for the same reason?
Had Christianity felt what I felt, but could not (and cannot) express--
this need for a first loyalty to things, and then for a ruinous
reform of things? Then I remembered that it was actually the charge
against Christianity that it combined these two things which I was wildly
trying to combine. Christianity was accused, at one and the same time,
of being too optimistic about the universe and of being too pessimistic
about the world. The coincidence made me suddenly stand still."

http://www.gkc.org.uk/gkc/books/ortho14.txt
 
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TheLostCoin

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How in the world do you find someone who can treat the neurochemical processes that cause mental disorders (arguably) as well as the spirit? I'm not about to start seeing some quack who claims to understand science but also subscribes to Protestant nonsense. I'd gladly talk to someone who's Orthodox, but the priests I've met admit themselves that they have little understanding of psychiatric issues...

I'm also really having trouble with what seems to be your outright rejection of science. You deny that neurotransmitters in mentally ill people are not firing properly and causing problems? This is a genuine question.

Psychiatry and psychology all too often systematize the variety of human experiences to the basic level of chemical processes or irregular behavior. Very seldom do they seek to actually ask the questions of why these things develop the way they do.

Sexual trauma, social trauma, war trauma, economic trauma - after a while the answer “neuro-chemical imbalance” and “developing new social behaviors” isn’t sufficient to deal with the real suffering that is life.

One can’t clean up the pollution of the pond when one ignores the factory causing the pollution.


Most ancient religions still in practice, to some extent, echo the Buddha’s famous First Noble Truth - “Life is suffering” or rather “Suffering is intrinsic to life itself”

Most people aren’t taught how to accept their cross and how to grow from it, but even more importantly, “Why am I growing” or “Why should I grow”
 
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