IS ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT GOD'S CHURCH?

RickReads · Jun 14, 2021

Clare73 said:
1 Corinthians 15:25: "For he must reign until he has put everything under his feet."

This refers to Christ seated at the right hand of the Father now, in the church age--since the beginning of the church until the second coming at the end of time, where "God placed all things under his feed and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills everything in every way.

It is the reign of Revelation 20:1-6, where
1) "1000" is symbolic of the fullness of time for the church age;
2) "came to life. . .this is the first resurrection" (v.5) is the new birth (John 3:3) from spiritual death; and
3) "reigned with Christ (v.5)" is the church now "seated with him in the heavenlies" (Ephesians 2:6).
I assume by "millennial reign" you are referring to Revelation 20:1-6, which is the church age.

Your assertions are all fictitious interpretations of these verses that bear little resemblance to what the verses actually say.

The entire chapter of Revelation chapter 20 is about things that will take place after the end of this age.

And your Corinthians verse is talking about Jesus reigning not the church. Take a good look at the verse, the word "HE" appears twice in reference to Jesus. The church would use female indicators if the verse was referencing the church. The church is always talked about in the female gender.

Clare73 · Jun 14, 2021

RickReads said:
Your assertions are all fictitious interpretations of these verses that bear little resemblance to what the verses actually say.
The entire chapter of Revelation chapter 20 is about things that will take place after the end of this age.

That statement has no standing, because unfulfilled prophecy is subject to more than one intepretation.
My intepretation is in agreement with authoritative NT teaching, yours is not.

And your Corinthians verse is talking about Jesus reigning not the church.

Pay attention.
Nothing I've stated says the church is reigning.
He is reigning now. . .now is the church age. . .he is reigning over everything in the church age now.

Take a good look at the verse, the word "HE" appears twice in reference to Jesus. The church would use female indicators if the verse was referencing the church. The church is always talked about in the female gender.

It would serve you well to give thought to some of the extraneous material presented in post #300.

Clare73 · Jun 14, 2021

Brian Mcnamee said:
hi this is an important issue and those who hold to new covenant only ideas need look at the context of Jer 30 and 31. The day of Jacobs trouble is when? he is saved out of it and David is also raised up at this time. Jer 31 begins with linking the new covenant to the day of Jacobs trouble. in that day is the opening verse of chapter 31. chapter 31 winds it way to the great declaration of a new covenant for the forgiveness of sins and here is the great common ground we all agree with is that the new covenant is the only way to salvation. In Rev 5 we see the souls of those in heaven and they all cry out to the lamb that he was worthy because he redeemed them by his blood out of every tribe tongue kindred and nation they declare that they will rule with him upon the earth. Right here futurism has a literal claim that makes no sense with allegorical interpretation. Now Jesus wept for Jerusalem and predicted the destruction of the city and the temple and associated that destruction with not accepting him when he brough in the new covenant. So God by proxy decided that the very next verse in Jer 31 would declare that Israel would never cease to be a nation and the God would not cast off the seed of Israel for all they have done. Now these promises are followed by another prophecy that the city Jerusalem will be rebuilt as a time when dead bodies fill the valleys and from that time on it will be holy and never thrown down again.

This is checkmate for replacement theology.

That would be fulfillment theology.

There will be no dead bodies in the new Jerusalem. the city that comes down does not need to be rebuilt. This day of Jacobs trouble points to Zech 14 and Rev Joel 3 Dan 7 and Israel is saved as Isaiah 61 Luke 1 and Hosea and Revelation declare. When were those dead bodies in the valley that required a rebuilding of Jerusalem that is again now declared holy and never thrown down again. You see this again puts a hard contradiction to the view that the chruch is Israel and the promise in Luke one sure fits with Israel being saved from their enemies and then attaining the righteousness of faith in Jesus now believing Jesus is God and savior.

RickReads · Jun 14, 2021

My comments ( )

My intepretation is in agreement with authoritative NT teaching

( As stand-alone interpretations they didn`t make a lot of sense to me. Can you share the authoritative sources? Links?)

Nothing I've stated says the church is reigning.
He is reigning now. . .now is the church age. . .he is reigning over everything in the church age now.

( Ok, fair enough.)

It would serve you well to give thought to some of the extraneous material presented in post #300.

( I didn`t see any, but we both agree that Jesus is reigning right now so that is at least a place to start.
What does Jesus need to do to complete his purpose? Who does the covenant belong to? The only person who ever qualified to inherit the covenant is Jesus Himself.)

RickReads · Jun 14, 2021

Clare73 said:
That would be fulfillment theology.

Problem is, fulfillment theology only works as replacement theology because many prophecies concerning Israel haven't been fulfilled yet.

You have to either argue that God isn`t going to keep His promises or else argue that prophecy is all subject to interpretations to avoid the language of the text.

RickReads · Jun 14, 2021

The link below will take you to a wonderfully well written commentary on who the inheritors of the New Covenant are. I have to link this one because if I posted about it I would just plagiarize.

Inheriting Covenants

Guojing · Jun 14, 2021

RickReads said:
The link below will take you to a wonderfully well written commentary on who the inheritors of the New Covenant are. I have to link this one because if I posted about it I would just plagiarize.

Inheriting Covenants

Are We Israel?

Ahh, he likened us to spiritual Israel. I guess you would agree with that he said above too?

OldWiseGuy · Jun 14, 2021

Davy said:
Not really, since Jacob said that Joseph's younger son Ephraim would become "a multitude of nations". That cannot just mean the British commonwealth of nations (i.e., Spain, Italy, Germany, Denmark, Norway, Belgium, France, Sweden, U.S., etc., aren't in the British commonwealth, yet they also are traditional Christian nations).

According to British Israelism those nations represent the descendants of the other tribes, which also share in the Abrahamic material blessings.

OldWiseGuy · Jun 14, 2021

Guojing said:
So the current nation of Israel that we see now, when you claim that their Old covenant has finally dissolved, are you saying they are now under the New Covenant, or something else?

The current state of Israel is a Jewish invention and in no way represents the "nation of Israel". In fact it is destined to bring problems to the actual descendants of the house of Israel, the so-called 'lost tribes', in the end time conflagration.

Guojing · Jun 14, 2021

OldWiseGuy said:
The current state of Israel is a Jewish invention and in no way represents the "nation of Israel". In fact it is destined to bring problems to the actual descendants of the house of Israel, the so-called 'lost tribes' in the end time conflagration.

So who are the people in the House of Israel and Judah that is currently under the New Covenant?

Do you mean the Body of Christ?

OldWiseGuy · Jun 14, 2021

Guojing said:
So who are the people in the House of Israel and Judah that is currently under the New Covenant?

Do you mean the Body of Christ?

The new covenant church is under...the new covenant, although most Jews believe the old covenant is still in force, and do not accept the divinity of Jesus Christ.

Guojing · Jun 14, 2021

OldWiseGuy said:
The new covenant church is under...the new covenant, although most Jews believe the old covenant is still in force, and do not accept the divinity of Jesus Christ.

I see. Would you say you believe in some form of replacement theology?

When you say "The new covenant church is under...the new covenant", making your point true by definition, do you think there was ever an old covenant church in the OT?

RickReads · Jun 14, 2021

Guojing said:
Are We Israel?

Ahh, he likened us to spiritual Israel. I guess you would agree with that he said above too?

Can you clarify what you are telling me? I didn`t understand your remark. I get told what I agree with and what I disagree with around here oftentimes without being asked, spiritual Israel isn`t a term I find anywhere in my Bible.

RickReads · Jun 14, 2021

Guojing said:
Are We Israel?

Ahh, he likened us to spiritual Israel. I guess you would agree with that he said above too?

Ok, took me a minute to figure out what you're on about. You expect me to agree with an article I haven`t endorsed because it is written by a person who put together an article I did endorse.

I don`t think that`s a good way to initiate a discussion, spiritual Israel is a contrived term that can mean almost anything you want it to.

Having said that, if you want to see how many names you can come up with to describe the elect, the term spiritual Israel could be included on that list.

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Guojing · Jun 14, 2021

RickReads said:
Ok, took me a minute to figure out what you're on about. You expect me to agree with an article I haven`t endorsed because it is written by a person who put together an article I did endorse.

I don`t think that`s a good way to initiate a discussion, spiritual Israel is a contrived term that can mean almost anything you want it to.

Having said that, if you want to see how many names you can come up with to describe the elect, the term spiritual Israel could be included on that list.

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

There is a reason Why I put a question mark, I was wondering whether you would agree with her there too.

In that article, she linked that point to who are the ones who are under the new covenant.

So when you used words like wonderful and well written in her article about inheriting covenants, I thought the link between the 2 articles should be close enough.

Brian Mcnamee · Jun 14, 2021

Guojing said:
I am curious how you could see this as fulfilled in Ezekiel 47.

In Genesis 17:8, it was said And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

When God said it is everlasting, did he meant that?

If you say yes, is the nation of Israel occupying all that land now?

Hi the nation right there now is in position to inherit the land. Ezekiel 47 is future and the river in Zech 14 does not flow until the 2nd coming. This is a key chapter as all the events are in single day. The city of Jerusalem is overrun. The LORD comes and melts the enemies. The LORD is king over all the earth. They will say on that day the LORD is one. The Mt of Olives splits and forms new valleys and a new river that will flow year round. The nations which are left meaning some won;t be will now from that day on have to come to Jerusalem to worship the king and keep the feast of tabernacles or they will get no rain.

So we have Eze 36 the prophecy to the mountains of Israel that they will come so they are now come. Now the man of sin in 2 Thes 2 is revealed in the temple and is going to be the same guy as the beast is REv and the pompous one in Dan 7 and he will commit the abomination of desolation in the temple as Jesus warned about and many will flee on that day. This is 42 months from that day and this time line is when the LORD comes and rules over the nations and the throne establish with judgment and justice.

Guojing · Jun 14, 2021

Brian Mcnamee said:
Hi the nation right there now is in position to inherit the land. Ezekiel 47 is future and the river in Zech 14 does not flow until the 2nd coming. This is a key chapter as all the events are in single day. The city of Jerusalem is overrun. The LORD comes and melts the enemies. The LORD is king over all the earth. They will say on that day the LORD is one. The Mt of Olives splits and forms new valleys and a new river that will flow year round. The nations which are left meaning some won;t be will now from that day on have to come to Jerusalem to worship the king and keep the feast of tabernacles or they will get no rain.

So we have Eze 36 the prophecy to the mountains of Israel that they will come so they are now come. Now the man of sin in 2 Thes 2 is revealed in the temple and is going to be the same guy as the beast is REv and the pompous one in Dan 7 and he will commit the abomination of desolation in the temple as Jesus warned about and many will flee on that day. This is 42 months from that day and this time line is when the LORD comes and rules over the nations and the throne establish with judgment and justice.

So what you really meant to say is that it will be fulfilled in the future?

RickReads · Jun 14, 2021

Guojing said:
There is a reason Why I put a question mark, I was wondering whether you would agree with her there too.

In that article, she linked that point to who are the ones who are under the new covenant.

So when you used words like wonderful and well written in her article about inheriting covenants, I thought the link between the 2 articles should be close enough.

Her research into the covenants is top-notch so far as I`m concerned. I`m not too keen on her use of spiritual Israel as a term because it is often used to promote replacement theology. Having said that I don`t have a major problem with the second article although it isn`t one I would use.

I know all about what you believe so feel free to be open about your disagreement or criticisms.

Brian Mcnamee · Jun 14, 2021

Guojing said:
So what you really meant to say is that it will be fulfilled in the future?

Yes indeed you can write a long list of what is declared to come and it will be just like the 1st advent when Jesus walked with the two disciples and opened the scriptures to them and showed them all things written about him. The 2nd coming and transition into the millennium has more written about it than Jesus 1st coming.

RickReads · Jun 14, 2021

Brian Mcnamee said:
Yes indeed you can write a long list of what is declared to come and it will be just like the 1st advent when Jesus walked with the two disciples and opened the scriptures to them and showed them all things written about him. The 2nd coming and transition into the millennium has more written about it than Jesus 1st coming.

The number I have from my research is about one-third of Bible prophecy is unfulfilled. Quite a bit left for Jesus to do which is why we will have one last Age when this one is over with.

IS ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT GOD'S CHURCH?

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