How to inform the church of a removal of a member?

coffee4u

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I would consider this to be a lesson in who you appoint to leadership more than anything.

Anyone appointed should be someone you trust.
1 Timothy 3:2
2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,


"it was discovered that this brother has been diagnosed with schizophrenia. This brother sat out for awhile, then served again."

He should not have been placed in a position of serving. If he is on medication my guess is he 'flips out' when he isn't taking it. I know someone whose grown son has schizophrenia and for whatever reason just about annually the doctors try and take him off medication and he also 'flips out' I honestly don't get it, but it could be a reason for him to seem okay and then to not be. If this is the cause you could ask him not to attend when he is off his medication but that you will go to him instead.
 
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The Liturgist

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I would consider this to be a lesson in who you appoint to leadership more than anything.

Anyone appointed should be someone you trust.
1 Timothy 3:2
2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,


"it was discovered that this brother has been diagnosed with schizophrenia. This brother sat out for awhile, then served again."

He should not have been placed in a position of serving. If he is on medication my guess is he 'flips out' when he isn't taking it. I know someone whose grown son has schizophrenia and for whatever reason just about annually the doctors try and take him off medication and he also 'flips out' I honestly don't get it, but it could be a reason for him to seem okay and then to not be. If this is the cause you could ask him not to attend when he is off his medication but that you will go to him instead.

So I have a hypothetical objection to this, in that mental illness is a disease that at least a quarter of us will experience some form of during our lifetime. And yet this terrible stigma is attached to people who as a population are far more likely to be victims of crime than the average population than they are to commit crime. We have got to remove the stigma concerning mental health problems, so that people feel comfortable and supported by society and are able to get treatment and not become alienated from anyone because of a misplaced fear that they are “crazy.”

Schizophrenia is a difficult disease to treat, but I would not regard it as an absolute disqualifier for service in the church.

Also, the verse you quote from the First Pastoral Epistle of St. Paul to St. Timothy concerns the qualifications for the ordination of bishops, and you are using a modern translation which frankly obscures the meaning of that verse. If we use a literal translation rather than dynamic equivalence, which is sometimes a good idea, the phrase is “the husband of one wife,” and what it meant, how it was interpreted by the early church, is reflected in the ancient canon law: specifically, in the early church, many converts to Christianity were in polygamous marriages, which the church did not separate, but it also did not perform, and someone who was in any kind of polygamous marriage was disqualified from Holy Orders.

Also, the early church would not ordain someone who had killed anyone, even lawfully, after being baptized; St. Moses the Black was ordained as a priest and was later martyred together with the other monks at his monastery when they refused to resist with violence some attackers, but before his conversion to Christianity and baptism, St. Moses was a bit like Saul before he became St. Paul, only perhaps worse, in that he was a highway robber who preyed upon people traveling in the deserts of Egypt and had committed several murders. The extent to which St. Moses was transformed by faith in Christ is truly remarkable, which is why he is one of the most venerated saints in Eastern Christianity.

Interestingly, killing people is now even more generally a disqualifier for ordination in the various Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian and Eastern Catholic churches.
 
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Paidiske

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I do agree that mental illness, in and of itself, shouldn't disqualify one from service in the church.

I recall at my own "psych exam" when I offered for ordination, explaining my history of depression, and the examiner telling me that most clergy experience depression, so it can be a good thing to ordain people who already know how to recognise it in themselves and seek appropriate help!

I do, however, think that we need to be clear that uncontrolled or untreated mental illness can sometimes leave people in a place where they are a liability to the people they'd seek to serve. It's not wrong to avoid putting an unstable person in a position where their behaviour could harm others.
 
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coffee4u

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So I have a hypothetical objection to this, in that mental illness is a disease that at least a quarter of us will experience some form of during our lifetime. And yet this terrible stigma is attached to people who as a population are far more likely to be victims of crime than the average population than they are to commit crime. We have got to remove the stigma concerning mental health problems, so that people feel comfortable and supported by society and are able to get treatment and not become alienated from anyone because of a misplaced fear that they are “crazy.”

Schizophrenia is a difficult disease to treat, but I would not regard it as an absolute disqualifier for service in the church.

Also, the verse you quote from the First Pastoral Epistle of St. Paul to St. Timothy concerns the qualifications for the ordination of bishops, and you are using a modern translation which frankly obscures the meaning of that verse. If we use a literal translation rather than dynamic equivalence, which is sometimes a good idea, the phrase is “the husband of one wife,” and what it meant, how it was interpreted by the early church, is reflected in the ancient canon law: specifically, in the early church, many converts to Christianity were in polygamous marriages, which the church did not separate, but it also did not perform, and someone who was in any kind of polygamous marriage was disqualified from Holy Orders.

Also, the early church would not ordain someone who had killed anyone, even lawfully, after being baptized; St. Moses the Black was ordained as a priest and was later martyred together with the other monks at his monastery when they refused to resist with violence some attackers, but before his conversion to Christianity and baptism, St. Moses was a bit like Saul before he became St. Paul, only perhaps worse, in that he was a highway robber who preyed upon people traveling in the deserts of Egypt and had committed several murders. The extent to which St. Moses was transformed by faith in Christ is truly remarkable, which is why he is one of the most venerated saints in Eastern Christianity.

Interestingly, killing people is now even more generally a disqualifier for ordination in the various Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian and Eastern Catholic churches.

Not talking about stigmatizing, but if the man is off his medication (which is only a guess on my part) and he is acting irrationally then for his own sake and for others he should stay home and have the minister visit him.
Some people on medication also take themselves off it due to how it makes them feel. Understandable but again the rest of the church shouldn't be endangered due to something the person with the condition can control -the taking or not taking of medication. I think this is something that needs to be found out.

My mother had to take anti depressants for the last 15 years of her life due to how severe her depression was -she was hospitalized- so I know how it is. Without my father making sure she took her tablets she might not have done so as she kept saying she didn't need them -she did. So does he have someone to check on him? I hope so.
 
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The Liturgist

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I do agree that mental illness, in and of itself, shouldn't disqualify one from service in the church.

I recall at my own "psych exam" when I offered for ordination, explaining my history of depression, and the examiner telling me that most clergy experience depression, so it can be a good thing to ordain people who already know how to recognise it in themselves and seek appropriate help!

I do, however, think that we need to be clear that uncontrolled or untreated mental illness can sometimes leave people in a place where they are a liability to the people they'd seek to serve. It's not wrong to avoid putting an unstable person in a position where their behaviour could harm others.

Absolutely. There are some mental illnesses which are even unfortunately so bad that hospitalization is required. Places like Broadmoor in the UK still exist for a reason. In Canada, there were two psychotic killers over a period of around five years, one of whom decapitated a fellow passenger on a Greyhound Bus (Greyhound Canada just went out of business due to the pandemic; they historically have been the same company as Greyhound in America, and are unrelated to Greyhound Australia, except all three are long distance motorcoach / intercity bus lines), and then more recently you had the notorious case of Luka Magnotta, who filmed himself engaging in barbaric acts of animal cruelty and then committing a violent homicide. Both individuals were found to be extremely mentally ill, but these are isolated cases.

Ultimately, I think we as clergy are kind of like airline pilots, in that we need mental health professionals to tell us as clergy whether or not we are fit to fly, and just as the physical health of airline pilots is monitored, I think we, as clergy, since we are tasked with providing pastoral care, which is not a mental health service, but which can help and also seriously harm people, and church abuse is a thing which in some scenarios, like this one, is due to mental illness.

Also, we as clergy set a powerful example. I loved how earlier in the decade, before their brotherhood became strained, HRH William and Harry set up Heads Together, to destigmatize mental health issues and encourage military veterans and the general public to open up about it and embrace proper health care of the mind as well as the body. If we as clergy were known to make an effort to take care of ourselves with routine checkups, like airline pilots, this would I think help to further reduce the stigma, and set a good example for our congregation.

There are also a great many mental health care professionals who are Christians of all denominations; there is one I quite like who is a board certified psychiatrist and also a priest at a Greek Orthodox monastery. So people who might worry about compromising their faith, because Carl Jung for example was a devout neo-Gnostic who funded the publication and translation of the Nag Hammadi library, needn’t worry, because among licensed mental health practitioners in the modern era, most of the psychiatrists and also general practitioners who treat in the US some mental health issues that do not require a specialist, for example, medicines for anxiety and depression are commonly prescribed by GPs, are following evidence based medicine, and so it doesn’t matter what their religion is; for psychotherapists and counselors, there are many many Christians who are licensed who are available, if someone feels the need. I don’t know if that is the case in Australia; I am of the view that ideally, with professional clinicians, it should not matter, but there might be cases where it does, due either to unprofessional clinicians who might have a bias against religious people, or in other cases, due to a fear people might have of mental health treatment, particularly by people of different religions. And a lot of that I think is due to the famous eccentricity of Freud, Jung and other pioneers in the genre.

And you also had cults fraudulently get into mental health, for example, Scientology, which to this day, despite being detested by every living psychiatrist owing to the continued libel Scientology publishes about them, using their Hollywood celebrities to attack an entire medical speciality.

So moving back to the hypothetical case of someone who suffers from a mental illness that requires the use of medication in order for them to be stable, this would be a case analogous to some pilots who are required to use medical treatment, for example, wearing prescription eyeglasses to correct their vision to 20/20, and to undergo more frequent medical examinations. In this case, such a person, working for the church in any capacity, even as a church secretary or manager (because if a secretary with a severe mental illness left untreated could, perhaps, have an episode when a parishioner called who urgently needed help, for example, due to a relative who was terminally ill or who had fallen asleep in the Lord, and required appropriate assistance, and such an episode could cause severe harm to all parties involved), would need to stay active with treatment for their condition to the extent permitted by law, insofar as churches are still subject to some forms of anti-discrimination law with regards to hiring and there is the realm of medical privacy; the US has an extremely strict code of medical privacy laws called HIPAA, which are surprisingly robust and modern (usually one expects us to be backwards when it comes to things like privacy legislation, but actually, this is not always the case).

So, within the confines of what we are allowed to do, to avoid illegally discriminating against mentally ill people and violating, in the US, the Equal Opportunity Employment Act, which is enforced by a powerful federal agency, the EEOC, and this is extremely important along with other federal equal rights laws and agencies such as our housing equality laws, which have another agency that enforces them, and our civil rights legislation, which gave the constitution some teeth in terms of ending segregation, and at the same time also avoiding intruding on the privacy people are entitled to medically, we should not discriminate against mentally ill people who actively receive treatment, but where this treatment is required for them to function, we should, in the appropriate legal manner, and this is why churches need lawyers just like every other charitable organization, make sure they get it, for their health and everyone else’s.

In the US, I mentioned how the Episcopal Church, and I should add the Roman Catholic Church, through their charities, represent much of what is keeping various mental health programs operational and accessible, because since the 1970s, on the positive side, we have had de-institutionalization, and now we have a major push for de-stigmatization, but the negative side has been severe budgetary reductions and in some cases criminalization of certain classes of mentally ill people.
 
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The Liturgist

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Not talking about stigmatizing, but if the man is off his medication (which is only a guess on my part) and he is acting irrationally then for his own sake and for others he should stay home and have the minister visit him.
Some people on medication also take themselves off it due to how it makes them feel. Understandable but again the rest of the church shouldn't be endangered due to something the person with the condition can control -the taking or not taking of medication. I think this is something that needs to be found out.

My mother had to take anti depressants for the last 15 years of her life due to how severe her depression was -she was hospitalized- so I know how it is. Without my father making sure she took her tablets she might not have done so as she kept saying she didn't need them -she did. So does he have someone to check on him? I hope so.

So here are some considerations, in addition to what @Paidiske has said:

  • The extent to which someone acts irrationally impacts their attending worship. I on several occasions have visited an Orthodox church where one of the members of the church had a developmentally disabled son who was in his 20s, who would walk around the church randomly during the liturgy, but he would never harass anyone, and I never saw him try to go into the altar. His father was always there also. Sadly, he later died of brain injuries.
  • Obviously, if a person endangers or harasses members of the congregation, that is something else.
  • Whether or not you can find out if they are taking their medication is a patient privacy issue depends on HIPAA and I am not a lawyer, but my church has one for issues like this.

Bearing that in mind, if I were you I would just do whatever @Paidiske and your counsel and vestry/church wardens/ruling elders/bishop/district superintendent advice or instruct.

Just out of curiosity, on that note, can you tell me a little bit more about your church, how its governed, the style of your worship, etc?
 
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Paidiske

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Ultimately, I think we as clergy are kind of like airline pilots, in that we need mental health professionals to tell us as clergy whether or not we are fit to fly, and just as the physical health of airline pilots is monitored, I think we, as clergy, since we are tasked with providing pastoral care, which is not a mental health service, but which can help and also seriously harm people, and church abuse is a thing which in some scenarios, like this one, is due to mental illness.

It's an interesting analogy. I don't see a mental health professional routinely, but I am under clinical supervision, and I guess I expect that to perform the same sort of "stability check" function (among others).

I don’t know if that is the case in Australia; I am of the view that ideally, with professional clinicians, it should not matter, but there might be cases where it does, due either to unprofessional clinicians who might have a bias against religious people, or in other cases, due to a fear people might have of mental health treatment, particularly by people of different religions.

Generally speaking, it is hard to find out because professional clinicians tend not to advertise their religion. Speaking from personal experience, I have found working with a Christian can be difficult, because they can have particular expectations or baggage which they bring to working with a member of the clergy. I did once have an excellent therapist who was a Jew, and the amount of shared understanding of faith that we had was helpful.
 
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EmmaCat

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I don't know, as I am not a pastor ar anything, but there are a couple members in our church who have severe mental health issues.

Our pastor quietly went to some members (including myself) to ask if we would volunteer to calm the members if they became disruptive or otherwise difficult.

So far it's working well. But they can't be in any type of leadership position. And we work together with their caretakers in order to at least give them the opportunity to worship and be a part of the church.

Not sure if that helps.
 
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