IS ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT GOD'S CHURCH?

Clare73 said:

Yes, it's called the Church age (1 Corinthians 15:25), and the number in that prophetic riddle is one of the numbers symbolic of fullness, completion as are 7, 12, 144, 1000.

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You misuse the verse. The verse is about Jesus as ruler. Has nothing to do with the church nor does the verse prevent a final age for this earth from happening.

RickReads said:

Peter mentions the age to come in both verses 19 and 21: times of refreshing, times of restitution, and what we call the millennial rule of Christ is all one and the same period of time. The apostles and all the early Christians believed in it.

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Where do we find the apostles believing in a "millennial reign?"

RickReads said:

You misuse the verse. The verse is about Jesus as ruler. Has nothing to do with the church nor does the verse prevent a final age for this earth from happening.

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What "verse" are you talking about?

Clare73 said:

What "verse" are you talking about?

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The one you keep trying to use, 1 Corinthians 15:25. That verse is about Jesus the King, it's not about the church. And the last enemy that must be put under His feet is death.

1 Corinthians 15:25 Commentaries: For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

Clare73 said:

Where do we find the apostles believing in a "millennial reign?"

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Acts 1:6, Acts 3:19-21, Luke 1:32-33, Matthew 24:30-31

Guojing said:

So my original point to you is that the NC could not have already begun.

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The New Covenant began with the resurrection of Jesus.

You are changing the meaning of the recipients of the NC in Hebrews 8:8 to individuals, instead of what the verse literally says "House of Israel and House of Judah".

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The Old Covenant was made with a nation through a mediator--Moses (Exodux 19:3--24:8).
God did not deal with the people of Israel directly.
And as Moses was the mediator of the Old Covenant (Exodus 19:3--24:8) between God and the nation Israel, so Jesus is the Mediator of the New Covenant between God and the body of Christ (Hebrews 8:6, 9:15, 12:24; Galatians 3:19-20), each one individually.
At the time the new covenant promise was made in Jer 31, the people of God were the "house of Israel and the house of Judah." But the covenant would be made through a single mediator, who was not named in Jer 31, but is named in Hebrews 8:6.
The New Covenant is made with the body of Christ, one individual at a time, through Jesus, its single Mediator.

There is no "beginning of the New Covenant" for any nation.
The New Covenant is mediated through Jesus Christ and that is where you go to enter it with God.

I have presented scripture to you, for my points, but as of now, you have not. If you still want to claim it is wrong, but yours is somehow correct, that is your choice.

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But you aren't speaking in terms of the Biblical concepts, and it is hard for me to make sense of what you are proposing.

Clare73 said:

The New Covenant began with the resurrection of Jesus.

The Old Covenant was made through a mediator--Moses (Exodux 19:3--24:8). God did not deal with the people of Israel directly.
And as Moses was the mediator of the Old Covenant (Exodus 19:3--24:8) between God and Israel, so Jesus is the Mediator of the New Covenant between God and the body of Christ (Hebrews 8:6).
At the time the promise was made in Jer 31, the people of God were the "house of Israel and the house of Judah." But the covenant is made through a single mediator, who was not named in Jer 31, but is named in Hebrews 8:6.

Jesus is the Mediator of the New Covenant for all whose choose to enter it.
The offer closes when his foot touches the ground at the Second Coming.

But you aren't speaking in terms of the Biblical concepts, and it is hard for me to make sense of what you are proposing.

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In Exodus 24, the nation of Israel declared to God they accepted the requirements of the Old Covenant.

3 And Moses came and told the people all the words of the Lord, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the Lord hath said will we do.

7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient.

Only after that, did Moses declare the Old Covenant had begun for Israel

8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord hath made with you concerning all these words.

Until the nation of Israel declare to God that they believe in Christ as their promised Messiah, which will be done at the end of the Tribulation, then the New Covenant will begin for Israel.

hi this is an important issue and those who hold to new covenant only ideas need look at the context of Jer 30 and 31. The day of Jacobs trouble is when? he is saved out of it and David is also raised up at this time. Jer 31 begins with linking the new covenant to the day of Jacobs trouble. in that day is the opening verse of chapter 31. chapter 31 winds it way to the great declaration of a new covenant for the forgiveness of sins and here is the great common ground we all agree with is that the new covenant is the only way to salvation. In Rev 5 we see the souls of those in heaven and they all cry out to the lamb that he was worthy because he redeemed them by his blood out of every tribe tongue kindred and nation they declare that they will rule with him upon the earth. Right here futurism has a literal claim that makes no sense with allegorical interpretation. Now Jesus wept for Jerusalem and predicted the destruction of the city and the temple and associated that destruction with not accepting him when he brough in the new covenant. So God by proxy decided that the very next verse in Jer 31 would declare that Israel would never cease to be a nation and the God would not cast off the seed of Israel for all they have done. Now these promises are followed by another prophecy that the city Jerusalem will be rebuilt as a time when dead bodies fill the valleys and from that time on it will be holy and never thrown down again.

This is checkmate for replacement theology. There will be no dead bodies in the new Jerusalem. the city that comes down does not need to be rebuilt. This day of Jacobs trouble points to Zech 14 and Rev Joel 3 Dan 7 and Israel is saved as Isaiah 61 Luke 1 and Hosea and Revelation declare. When were those dead bodies in the valley that required a rebuilding of Jerusalem that is again now declared holy and never thrown down again. You see this again puts a hard contradiction to the view that the chruch is Israel and the promise in Luke one sure fits with Israel being saved from their enemies and then attaining the righteousness of faith in Jesus now believing Jesus is God and savior.

Clare73 said:

The New Covenant began with the resurrection of Jesus.

The Old Covenant was made with a nation through a mediator--Moses (Exodux 19:3--24:8).
God did not deal with the people of Israel directly.
And as Moses was the mediator of the Old Covenant (Exodus 19:3--24:8) between God and the nation Israel, so Jesus is the Mediator of the New Covenant between God and the body of Christ (Hebrews 8:6), each one individually.
At the time the new covenant promise was made in Jer 31, the people of God were the "house of Israel and the house of Judah." But the covenant would be made through a single mediator, who was not named in Jer 31, but is named in Hebrews 8:6.
The New Covenant is made with the body of Christ, one individual at a time, through Jesus, its single Mediator.

There is no "beginning of the New Covenant" for any nation.
The New Covenant is mediated through Jesus Christ and that is where you go to enter it with God.

But you aren't speaking in terms of the Biblical concepts, and it is hard for me to make sense of what you are proposing.

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Hi Claire the covenant made with Abraham predated the covenant made with Moses by more than 500 years. The covenant with Abraham was unconditional and it includes the inheritance on one nation made of the 12 tribes to receive the land of promise. The law was a conditional covenant that brought both blessing and cursing based on obedient or sinful behavior. Now Israel's history is one of back and forth and finally destruction. Now this unconditional covenant is shown to be fulfilled in Ezekiel 47 as the Dead Sea is healed and Israel receives the inheritance in the land by tribe and literally makes the completion of all the promises. It is glorious and wonderful I wish you could see it. Those in Rev 5 will rule upon the earth and those beheaded in the tribulation will also be on the earth. I have based my case on believing what is declared exactly as it is predicted. I am establishing a strong literal case that allows you to hold to the spiritual kingdom and spiritual Israel and makes congruent the literal prophesies of what is to come.

Clare73 said:

The Old Covenant was made with a nation through a mediator--Moses (Exodux 19:3--24:8). God did not deal with the people of Israel directly.
And as Moses was the mediator of the Old Covenant (Exodus 19:3--24:8) between God and the nation Israel, so Jesus is the Mediator of the New Covenant between God and the body of Christ (Hebrews 8:6), each one individually.
At the time the new covenant promise was made in Jer 31, the people of God were the "house of Israel and the house of Judah." But the covenant would be made through a single mediator, who was not named in Jer 31, but is named in Hebrews 8:6.
The New Covenant is made with the body of Christ, one individual at a time, through Jesus, its single Mediator.

There is no "beginning of the New Covenant" for any nation, or any person.
You enter the New Covenant which has been in existence since the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
The New Covenant is mediated through Jesus Christ and that is where you go to enter it with God.

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Guojing said:

In Exodus 24, the nation of Israel declared to God they accepted the requirements of the Old Covenant.

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Read it again.
In what verse do the people speak to God?

3 And Moses came and told the people all the words of the Lord, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the Lord hath said will we do.

7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient.

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Where do the people deal directly with God himself here, or God speaks directly to them?
All is done through Moses, their mediator with God.

And also, this is what is meant by a bilateral covenant--the people consented to terms of obligation, as did God to his obligation--to be their God (provider and caretaker).

Only after that, did Moses declare the Old Covenant had begun for Israel
8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord hath made with you concerning all these words.
Until the nation of Israel declare to God that they believe in Christ as their promised Messiah, which will be done at the end of the Tribulation, then the New Covenant will begin for Israel.

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You are not thinking in Biblical terms and concepts, and you keep thinking in terms of their dealing directly with God as a group, rather than individually through the Mediator, Jesus, individually, which is the way the New Covenant is set up.

When individual Israeites believe in Jesus as the atonement for their sin, they will, through Jesus their Mediator, and not directly with God, enter into the New Covenant, individually.

RickReads said:

The one you keep trying to use, 1 Corinthians 15:25. That verse is about Jesus the King, it's not about the church. And the last enemy that must be put under His feet is death.

1 Corinthians 15:25 Commentaries: For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

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He is seated at the right hand of the Father.
What specifically about the church are you objecting to?

Clare73 said:

When individual Israeites believe in Jesus as the atonement for their sin, they will, through Jesus their Mediator, and not directly with God, enter into the New Covenant, individually.

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Thus, you are changing the meaning of the recipients of the NC in Hebrews 8:8 to individuals, instead of what the verse literally says "House of Israel and House of Judah".

You cannot see that?

God always deals with Israel as a nation in the OT, and he will deal with Israel as a nation again, once the Tribulation begins for them.

Brian Mcnamee said:

Now this unconditional covenant is shown to be fulfilled in Ezekiel 47 as the Dead Sea is healed and Israel receives the inheritance in the land by tribe and literally makes the completion of all the promises..

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I am curious how you could see this as fulfilled in Ezekiel 47.

In Genesis 17:8, it was said And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

When God said it is everlasting, did he meant that?

If you say yes, is the nation of Israel occupying all that land now?

RickReads said:

Acts 1:6, Acts 3:19-21, Luke 1:32-33, Matthew 24:30-31

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Acts 1:6 - no "millennial" here

Acts 3:19-21 - no "millennial reign" here

Luke 1:32-33 - that began with the resurrection

Matthew 24:30-31 - no "millennial reign" here

Are you talking about the church age--from the resurrection to the end of time?

Brian Mcnamee said:

Hi Claire the covenant made with Abraham predated the covenant made with Moses by more than 500 years. The covenant with Abraham was unconditional and it includes the inheritance on one nation made of the 12 tribes to receive the land of promise. The law was a conditional covenant that brought both blessing and cursing based on obedient or sinful behavior. Now Israel's history is one of back and forth and finally destruction. Now this unconditional covenant is shown to be fulfilled in Ezekiel 47 as the Dead Sea is healed and Israel receives the inheritance in the land by tribe and literally makes the completion of all the promises. It is glorious and wonderful I wish you could see it. Those in Rev 5 will rule upon the earth and those beheaded in the tribulation will also be on the earth. I have based my case on believing what is declared exactly as it is predicted. I am establishing a strong literal case that allows you to hold to the spiritual kingdom and spiritual Israel and makes congruent the literal prophesies of what is to come.

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Hebrews 11:13-16 is the authoritative NT teaching on the land promise and its fulfillment--in the heavenly land/city.

Guojing said:

Thus, you are changing the meaning of the recipients of the NC in Hebrews 8:8 to individuals, instead of what the verse literally says "House of Israel and House of Judah". You cannot see that?

God always deals with Israel as a nation in the OT, and he will deal with Israel as a nation again, once the Tribulation begins for them.

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And you know this, how?

There is a Mediator for everyone for the New Covenant (Hebrew 8:6), just as there was a mediator for everyone, the nation, in the Old Covenant (Galatians 2:19-20).

You cannot see that?

Clare73 said:

And you know this, how?

There is a Mediator for everyone for the New Covenant (Hebrew 8:6), just as there was a mediator for everyone, the nation, in the Old Covenant (Galatians 2:19-20).

You cannot see that?

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I am reading and understanding Hebrews 8:8 literally.

If it speaks the House of Israel and the House of Judah as the recipients of the NC, I don't try to change what it says.

Clare73 said:

He is seated at the right hand of the Father.
What specifically about the church are you objecting to?

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You have been citing this verse as evidence for the Church age. Once again the verse is about Jesus not the church.

You don`t recognize the verse after using it multiple times in previous posts?

You playing games?

Clare73 said:

Acts 1:6 - no "millennial" here

Acts 3:19-21 - no "millennial reign" here

Luke 1:32-33 - that began with the resurrection

Matthew 24:30-31 - no "millennial reign" here

Are you talking about the church age--from the resurrection to the end of time?

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All of those verses talk about an earthly kingdom that will be directly ruled by Jesus in the future.

RickReads said:

You have been citing this verse as evidence for the Church age. Once again the verse is about Jesus not the church.

You don`t recognize the verse after using it multiple times in previous posts?

You playing games?

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Okay, we've been crossways since:
1 Corinthians 15:25: "For he must reign until he has put everything under his feet."

This refers to Christ seated at the right hand of the Father now, in the church age--since the beginning of the church until the second coming at the end of time, where
"God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way." (Ephesians 1:22-23)

(NOTE: the church (one olive tree) is the fullness of God, God counts himself incomplete without his treasured possession (Exodus 19:5; Deuteronomy 7:6, Deuteronomy 26:18; Malachi 3:17), his
own personal inheritance (Psalms 33:12; Ephesians 1:18), the church of his saints, both OT and NT (Hebrews 12:22-23).
The separation of the church and Israel in God's economy is totally contrary to authoritative NT teaching.

1 Corinthians 15:25 is the reign of Revelation 20:1-6, where
1) "1000" is symbolic of the fullness of time for the church age;
2) "came to life. . .this is the first resurrection" (v.5) is the new birth (John 3:3) from spiritual death;
3) "reigned with Christ (v.5)" is the church now "seated with him in the heavenlies" (Ephesians 2:6).
I assume by "millennial reign" you are referring to Revelation 20:1-6, which is the church age.

This is where I have been coming from on 1 Corinthians 15:25, and where the confusion lies
(not to mention responding to three people at once).

Hope this clears it up.