IS ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT GOD'S CHURCH?

Clare73 · Jun 13, 2021

parousia70 said:
That is exactly the extreme view that the Nazis held.
I suppose you likewise believe Today’s Jews still deserve to be exterminated, in fulfillment of God’s word, if God is Just?

Does God declare somewhere in his word that they should be?

Are there still unfulfilled prohetic curses for them in the word of God?

If so, I'm not going to argue with God, are you?

Brian Mcnamee · Jun 13, 2021

Hi for those of you who argue that spiritual Israel is for believers only and that the spiritual kingdom is a real thing I agree with you. I also agree that only one way of salvation for all man is in the new covenant. So with those concessions when you look at Jer 31 you make a critical error in dismissing the covenant with Abraham as that is a completely different covenant than the one God made with Israel on the day they came out of Egypt. So does the covenant with Abraham that he will be one nations that inherits the land forever have any support. You have already proved that the seed of Abraham has brought blessing to the world in Jesus.

in Luke 1 Jesus is promised to take the throne of David and reign over the house of Jacob forever. now look at this prophecy also in Luke 1.
67 Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying:
68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited and redeemed His people,
69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of His servant David,
70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
Who have been since the world began,
71 That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74 To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.

The oaths, promises and covenants are all affirmed here and you see at the time of deliverance from their enemies they will worship without fear and in holiness all the days of our life.

This before and after story is repeated in every 2nd coming narrative. Read Zech 14 a great deliverance at the time the kingdom comes on a day when Jerusalem is over run. The LORD is king over all the earth and the nations which are left must come to Jerusalem to worship the king and keep the feast of Tabernacles or they will get no rain. You see life is continuing after the LORD has come and the kingdom established.

In Rev the end of antichrist happens at Armageddon and this is also know as Jezreel they are the exact same place. In Hosea the who god called not my people on the day of Jezreel will be called sons of the living God. This is a day when the battle bow is broken from the earth. It is in the latter days and David is raised up at that time. I can post hundreds of verses that all show that Luke one is literal and so is the millennium. I have no problem with spriitual Israel and the spiritual kingdom or salvation through new covenant alone. These views I have do not conflict as both are true and the LORD will fulfill His word.

RickReads · Jun 13, 2021

Clare73 said:
Does God declare somewhere in his word that they should be?

Are there still unfulfilled prohetic curses for them in the word of God?

If so, I'm not going to argue with God, are you?

27 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.

28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the Lord.

29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.

30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:

36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

37 Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.

parousia70 · Jun 13, 2021

Clare73 said:
Does God declare somewhere in his word that they should be?

You tell me. That seems to be your claim.

Are there still unfulfilled prohetic curses for them in the word of God?

No.
In A. D. 70. the wrath of God against the Jews came to the utmost (I Thess. 2:16; Heb. 10:26-31) and they paid the price for their Messianic blood-guilt to the last penny (Lk. 12:54-59).

Teaching that the Jews somehow need to be punished further by God after that is not based on any scripture, but only on personal bias against them.

Clare73 · Jun 13, 2021

Brian Mcnamee said:
Hi for those of you who argue that spiritual Israel is for believers only and that the spiritual kingdom is a real thing I agree with you. I also agree that only one way of salvation for all man is in the new covenant. So with those concessions when you look at Jer 31 you make a critical error in dismissing the covenant with Abraham as that is a completely different covenant than the one God made with Israel on the day they came out of Egypt. So

does the covenant with Abraham that he will be one nations that inherits the land forever have any support. You have already proved that the seed of Abraham has brought blessing to the world in Jesus.

in Luke 1 Jesus is promised to take the throne of David and reign over the house of Jacob forever.

Per Daniel 2:44-45, that everlasting kingdom which stands forever and is never destroyed was established during the Roman empire
[Daniel 2:44--"in the time of those kings;" i.e., the Roman empire (Daniel 2:40-43), which conquered the Greek empire (Daniel 2:39; Daniel 8:21].

The temporal Messianic kingdom was set up during the past Roman empire, at the first coming of Christ,
it endures forever--there is no other temporal Messianic kingdom, it is now,
it is not of this world (John 18:36), it is spiritual, invisible and within (Luke 17:20-21), set up in the hearts of those where he reigns and rules,
its riches are spiritual (Romans 8:17), its powers are spiritual (2 Corinthians 10:4), and all its glory is within (Zechariah 2:5; Psalms 45:13).

All interpretation of prophetic riddles (dark sayings, not given clearly--Numberw 12:8) which are not in agreement with the fulfillment of Daniel 2:44-45 are de facto misinterpretation of those prophetic riddles, of which there is much going around.

now look at this prophecy also in Luke 1.
67 Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying:
68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited and redeemed His people,
69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of His servant David,
70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
Who have been since the world began,
71 That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74 To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.

The oaths, promises and covenants are all affirmed here and you see at the time of deliverance from their enemies they will worship without fear and in holiness all the days of our life.

This before and after story is repeated in every 2nd coming narrative. Read Zech 14 a great deliverance at the time the kingdom comes on a day when Jerusalem is over run. The LORD is king over all the earth and the nations which are left must come to Jerusalem to worship the king and keep the feast of Tabernacles or they will get no rain. You see life is continuing after the LORD has come and the kingdom established.

In Rev the end of antichrist happens at Armageddon and this is also know as Jezreel they are the exact same place.

In Hosea the who god called not my people on the day of Jezreel will be called sons of the living God. This is a day when the battle bow is broken from the earth. It is in the latter days and David is raised up at that time.

The NT teaches otherwise. . .that Israel is not the people of God (Hosea 1:9), and the promise to make them his people again (Hosea 2:23) is fulfilled in the Gentiles (Romans 9:24-26), and that the promise spoken to Israel (Hosea 2:23) applies to the Gentiles (1 Peter 2:10).

The latter days are the entire NT (1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 3:1, 2 Peter 3:3) when David's son, King Jesus, is raised up.

I can post hundreds of verses that all show that Luke one is literal and so is the millennium. I have no problem with spriitual Israel and the spiritual kingdom or salvation through new covenant alone. These views I have do not conflict as both are true and the LORD will fulfill His word.

RickReads · Jun 13, 2021

Clare73 said:
Per Daniel 2:44-45, that everlasting kingdom which stands forever and is never destroyed was established in the Roman empire
[Daniel 2:44--"in the time of those kings;" i.e., the Roman empire (Daniel 2:40-43), which conquered the Greek empire (Daniel 2:39; Daniel 8:21].
The Messianic kingdom was set up during the past Roman empire, at the first coming of Christ,
it endures forever, there is no other temporal Messianic kingdom, it is now,
it is not of this world (John 18:36), it is spiritual, invisible and within (Luke 17:20-21), set up in the hearts of those where he reigns and rules, its riches are spiritual (Romans 8:17), its powers are spiritual (2 Corinthians 10:4), and all its glory is within (Zechariah 2:5; Psalms 45:13).

All interpretation of prophetic riddles (dark sayings, not given clearly--Numberw 12:8) which are not in agreement with the fulfillment of Daniel 2:44-45 are de facto misinterpretation of those prophetic riddles, of which there is much going around.
The NT teaches otherwise. . .that Israel is not the people of God (Hosea 1:9), and the promise to make them his people again (Hosea 2:23) is fulfilled in the Gentiles (Romans 9:24-26), and that the promise spoken to Israel (Hosea 2:23) applies to the Gentiles (1 Peter 2:10).

The latter days are the NT (1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 3:1, 2 Peter 3:3) when David's son, King Jesus, is raised up.

Not true, God`s purpose for Israel will be fulfilled in the next age as explained by Paul below and prophecied in the Old Testament.

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Clare73 · Jun 13, 2021

Clare73 said:
Does God declare somewhere in his word that they should be?

parousia70 said:
You tell me. That seems to be your claim.

Don't recall making that claim. . .please show where it is.

Clare73 · Jun 13, 2021

RickReads said:
Not true,

Take it up with Daniel's fulfilled prophecy. . .

God`s purpose for Israel will be fulfilled in the next age

The next age is eternity.

as explained by Paul below and prophecied in the Old Testamen

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.[/QUOTE]

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

That's not a guarantee, that's conditional. . .and the condition hasn't been met in over 2,000 years now. . .and counting.

Paul teaches that God's promise to Israel is fulfilled in a remant (Romans 11:1-6), that
all Israel will be saved "thus" ("so"--in the same manner, Romans 11:26) as all the Gentiles are being saved; i.e. in a remnant (Romans 11:1-6).

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

RickReads · Jun 13, 2021

My comments in ( )

Take it up with Daniel's fulfilled prophecy. . .

( Daniel has not been fulfilled. I`m not a preterist so you`ll have to explain what you mean. Normally I won`t respond to such assertions.)

The next age is eternity.

( Not true. Jesus tells us in Matthew 24 "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." The days will be shortened and flesh shall be saved so that there can be one last age for this old earth before eternity begins.)

That's not a guarantee, that's conditional. . .and the condition hasn't been met in over 2,000 years now. . .and counting.

( The only condition that has to be met is the return of the Deliverer to Sion. It`s an appointed time, not a conditional time. )

Paul teaches that all Israel will be saved "thus" ("so"--in the same manner, Romans 11:26)
as all the Gentiles are being saved; i.e. in a remnant (Romans 11:1-6).

( Hopefully, you can do better than play a little sleight of hand with the scriptures. From observing your posts I would expect you to know in your heart what a weak line of reasoning this is. The text says nothing about all Gentiles getting saved. It only predicts that at a certain point all Israel will get saved and it is given in connection to the Old Testament which Paul is teaching from in this passage.)

Clare73 · Jun 13, 2021

Clare73 said:
Take it up with Daniel's fulfilled prophecy. . .

RickReads said:
My comments ( )

RickReads said:
( Daniel has not been fulfilled. I'm not a preterist so you'll have to explain what you mean. Normally I won't respond to such assertions.)

I have Biblically and historically demonstrted the fulfillment of the prophecy of Daniel 2:44-45.
You must demonstrate the error of my proof, or for purposes of this discussion, it is established.

The next age is eternity.

Click to expand...

( Not true. Jesus tells us in Matthew 24 "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." The days will be shortened and flesh shall be saved so that there can be one last age for this old earth before eternity begins

That is not talking about the second coming
Matthew 24:15-22 refers to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD,
which the Jewish historian Josephus, who was there, describes in almost identical language.

That's not a guarantee, that's conditional. . .and the condition hasn't been met in over 2,000 years now. . .and counting.

Click to expand...

( The only condition that has to be met is the return of the Deliverer to Sion. It`s an appointed time, not a conditional time. )

Are we talking about the same thing?
My comment refers to Romans 11:23: "if they do not persist in unbelief" not being a guarantee.
What are you talking about?

Paul teaches that all Israel will be saved "thus" ("so"--in the same manner, Romans 11:26)
as all the Gentiles are being saved; i.e. in a remnant (Romans 11:1-6).

( Hopefully, you can do better than play a little sleight of hand with the scriptures. From observing your posts I would expect you to know in your heart what a weak line of reasoning this is, The text says nothing about all Gentiles getting saved.

Wow. . .are you sure about that?
Actually, what I know in my heart is what a weak line of understanding you have.

Do you understand Scripture well enough to even discuss this?"

"From observing my posts," should give you pause to consider, study and examine my line of reasoning, that it may be true.

Regarding your "nothing about Gentiles getting saved:"
"Because of Israel's transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles." (Romans 11:11)
"Israel has experinced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in (to salvation). (Romans 11:25)

It only predicts that at a certain point all Israel will get saved and it is given in connection to the Old Testament which Paul is teaching from in this passage.)

Regarding my "only a remnant" of Gentles getting saved:
Until the "full numbe" of Gentiles has come in (to salvation) = the "full number" of Gentiles is only a remnant that will be saved, for not all Gentiles are being saved, only some are, and that "some" at this point in time is not the full number, because Israel is still hardened in part (Romans 11:25).

Regarding "so," "thus" = in the same manner (Romans 11:26). . .check your dictionary.

Regarding the "manner:"
The same manner as the Gentiles--in a remnant.
"Israel has experienced a hardening in part (blindness) until the full number (remnant) of the Gentiles has come in (to salvation). And so, thus (in the same manner) all Israel will be saved."

Brian Mcnamee · Jun 13, 2021

Clare73 said:
Per Daniel 2:44-45, that everlasting kingdom which stands forever and is never destroyed was established during the Roman empire
[Daniel 2:44--"in the time of those kings;" i.e., the Roman empire (Daniel 2:40-43), which conquered the Greek empire (Daniel 2:39; Daniel 8:21].

The temporal Messianic kingdom was set up during the past Roman empire, at the first coming of Christ,
it endures forever--there is no other temporal Messianic kingdom, it is now,
it is not of this world (John 18:36), it is spiritual, invisible and within (Luke 17:20-21), set up in the hearts of those where he reigns and rules,
its riches are spiritual (Romans 8:17), its powers are spiritual (2 Corinthians 10:4), and all its glory is within (Zechariah 2:5; Psalms 45:13).

All interpretation of prophetic riddles (dark sayings, not given clearly--Numberw 12:8) which are not in agreement with the fulfillment of Daniel 2:44-45 are de facto misinterpretation of those prophetic riddles, of which there is much going around.
The NT teaches otherwise. . .that Israel is not the people of God (Hosea 1:9), and the promise to make them his people again (Hosea 2:23) is fulfilled in the Gentiles (Romans 9:24-26), and that the promise spoken to Israel (Hosea 2:23) applies to the Gentiles (1 Peter 2:10).

The latter days are the entire NT (1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 3:1, 2 Peter 3:3) when David's son, King Jesus, is raised up.[/QUOT

Hi Dan 2 shows the kingdom coming when the stone cut without hands descends from heaven and crushes the image of mans kingdoms and leaves no trace of them at all. This is referring to the 2nd coming which again is seen in Zech 14 Where the LORD if pronounced king over all the earth. This is clearly the onset of the kingdom that covers the earth and has no end. The enemies are slain by the LORD at his coming which is exactly what happens in Rev when the angles also proclaim the kingdom of this earth have become the kingdoms of the LORD and His Christ and He shall reign forever and ever. . The millennium is consistent with the prophecy in Luke 1 which you have not answered the clear affirmation of the covenant with Abraham that the nation he was to father will inherit the land of covenant by a great deliverance. We see in ZEch 14 the mt of Olives being described as splitting in two, this from a specific valley and a new river that will flow year round with one fork going east. This would take it into the dead sea which in Ezekiel 47 promises that this sea will be healed and a prosperous fishing area and notes that the salt flats will not be healed. This happens when the 12 tribes are receiving their inheritance by lot in the known boundaries of Israel.

This literal view is consistent and tells the same before and after story I dont have to allergoriize anything to understand it and I can accept those things you hold true that I have conceded that we agree on. Luke 1 is something one should study and then list all promises, oaths covenants that show this deliverance for Israel and then it is noted they are now holy too. God redeems his people and Israel is not going to be forsaken but rather saved out of the day of Jacobs trouble.

Clare73 · Jun 13, 2021

Clare73 said:
Per Daniel 2:44-45, that everlasting kingdom which stands forever and is never destroyed was established during the Roman empire
[Daniel 2:44--"in the time of those kings;" i.e., the Roman empire (Daniel 2:40-43), which conquered the Greek empire (Daniel 2:39; Daniel 8:21].

The temporal Messianic kingdom was set up during the past Roman empire, at the first coming of Christ,
it endures forever--there is no other temporal Messianic kingdom, it is now,
it is not of this world (John 18:36), it is spiritual, invisible and within (Luke 17:20-21), set up in the hearts of those where he reigns and rules,
its riches are spiritual (Romans 8:17), its powers are spiritual (2 Corinthians 10:4), and all its glory is within (Zechariah 2:5; Psalms 45:13).

All interpretation of prophetic riddles (dark sayings, not given clearly--Numberw 12:8) which are not in agreement with the fulfillment of Daniel 2:44-45 are de facto misinterpretation of those prophetic riddles, of which there is much going around.
The NT teaches otherwise. . .that Israel is not the people of God (Hosea 1:9), and the promise to make them his people again (Hosea 2:23) is fulfilled in the Gentiles (Romans 9:24-26), and that the promise spoken to Israel (Hosea 2:23) applies to the Gentiles (1 Peter 2:10).

The latter days are the entire NT (1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 3:1, 2 Peter 3:3) when David's son, King Jesus, is raised up.

Brian Mcnamee said:
Hi Dan 2 shows the kingdom coming when the stone cut without hands descends from heaven

And who is the stone/rock which descends from heaven?

Who is the stone the builders rejected? (Acts 4:11)?
the stone over whom they stumbled (Romans 9:32)?
the stone laid in Zion (1 Peter 2:5)?
the rock that makes men fall (Romans 9:33; 1 Peter 2:8)?
the spiritual rock that accopanied them in the wilderness (1 Corinthians 10:4)?

and crushes the image of mans kingdoms and leaves no trace of them at all.

This is precisely what the NT presents Jesus, his atonement and the gospel doing.

This is referring to the 2nd coming

Nope. . .Daniel 2:44-45 clearly and unequivocally locates it during the last Roman empire.

Davy · Jun 13, 2021

OldWiseGuy said:
Aha! British Israelism! I love it!

Not really, since Jacob said that Joseph's younger son Ephraim would become "a multitude of nations". That cannot just mean the British commonwealth of nations (i.e., Spain, Italy, Germany, Denmark, Norway, Belgium, France, Sweden, U.S., etc., aren't in the British commonwealth, yet they also are traditional Christian nations).

Davy · Jun 13, 2021

OldWiseGuy said:
The "Christian west", religion and values, is under the most relentless and vicious attack, from within and without, in it's history. May God help us.

How well I know it. But we will still have... the Victory, when Lord Jesus returns!

We are to be patient, and wait on Him. God is going to allow His enemies to work up to their goal just enough for them to think they've won, and then He is going to slip the proverbial carpet right out from under them! So the coming trials against us are for a contrast, we are to be patient in these last days, staying in Christ Jesus.

RickReads · Jun 13, 2021

Clare73 said:
Nope. . .Daniel 2:44-45 clearly and unequivocally locates it during the last Roman empire.

Good Answer. I like that you mention the last Roman Empire. The Roman Empire was divided up into a group of nations just as Daniel 2:41 predicted. The countries that have dominated the world have all come from this group. For 1500 years the Roman Empire has rolled on partly strong and partly broken and we call it Western Civilization. It will meet its demise at the second coming because the first coming of Christ did not fulfill the prediction. The Kingdom of iron and clay remains to this very day in the form of the Trans Atlantic Alliance.

40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Brian Mcnamee · Jun 13, 2021

h

Clare73 said:
And who is the stone/rock which descends from heaven?

Who is the stone the builders rejected? (Acts 4:11)?
the stone over whom they stumbled (Romans 9:32)?
the stone laid in Zion (1 Peter 2:5)?
the rock that makes men fall (Romans 9:33; 1 Peter 2:8)?
the spiritual rock that accopanied them in the wilderness (1 Corinthians 10:4)?

This is precisely what the NT presents Jesus, his atonement and the gospel doing.

Nope. . .Daniel 2:44-45 clearly and unequivocally locates it during the last Roman empire.

no doubt he stone is Jesus t when does he descend? You ignored Zech 14 and how it matches Rev and Luke one providing the deliverance of Israel. So Daniel describes the day the kingdom that comes and covers the earth that has no end more than once. So it is illogical that the kingdom can have more than one beginning. So if we take Dan 7 we see a pompous one is persecuting for 3 1/2" years before the kingdom is given to one like the son of man who is before the ancient of days. This pompous one is destroyed and
“I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.

Now this taken literally and seeing this as fulfilled at the 2nd coming makes a lot more sense than trying to say Jesus is ruling the world and has been for 2000 years.

In Rev and in Zech 14 the enemies who are opposing Israel are destroyed when the kingdom comes and in your thinking you have Israel being destroyed at this time which is exactly the opposite.

Now 70 AD was certainly a judgment of God against Israel for not knowing the day of their visitation. Now go take a break and read all that is accomplished in Isaiah 61 the day of vengeance of our God. It shows a complete change in Israel and maintains that both Jews and Gentiles are still distinct groups. Here is just a small section
And they shall rebuild the old ruins,
They shall raise up the former desolations,
And they shall repair the ruined cities,
The desolations of many generations.
5 Strangers shall stand and feed your flocks,
And the sons of the foreigner
Shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
6 But you shall be named the priests of the LORD,
They shall call you the servants of our God.
You shall eat the riches of the Gentiles,
And in their glory you shall boast.
7 Instead of your shame you shall have double honor,
And instead of confusion they shall rejoice in their portion.
Therefore in their land they shall possess double;
Everlasting joy shall be theirs.

Eze 36 tells the same story to those who are gathered to the mountains of Israel that had long been desolate. God will remove the reproach of Israel and give them the new heart in the day he removes the reproach and again it is Israel enemies who are wiped out in this day and not Israel. You hold many contradictory positions. This contradiction is eliminated if the millennium is real and the 2nd coming is the transition point.

RickReads · Jun 13, 2021

Brian Mcnamee said:
h

no doubt he stone is Jesus t when does he descend? You ignored Zech 14 and how it matches Rev and Luke one providing the deliverance of Israel. So Daniel describes the day the kingdom that comes and covers the earth that has no end more than once. So it is illogical that the kingdom can have more than one beginning. So if we take Dan 7 we see a pompous one is persecuting for 3 1/2" years before the kingdom is given to one like the son of man who is before the ancient of days. This pompous one is destroyed and
“I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.

Now this taken literally and seeing this as fulfilled at the 2nd coming makes a lot more sense than trying to say Jesus is ruling the world and has been for 2000 years.

In Rev and in Zech 14 the enemies who are opposing Israel are destroyed when the kingdom comes and in your thinking you have Israel being destroyed at this time which is exactly the opposite.

Now 70 AD was certainly a judgment of God against Israel for not knowing the day of their visitation. Now go take a break and read all that is accomplished in Isaiah 61 the day of vengeance of our God. It shows a complete change in Israel and maintains that both Jews and Gentiles are still distinct groups. Here is just a small section
And they shall rebuild the old ruins,
They shall raise up the former desolations,
And they shall repair the ruined cities,
The desolations of many generations.
5 Strangers shall stand and feed your flocks,
And the sons of the foreigner
Shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
6 But you shall be named the priests of the LORD,
They shall call you the servants of our God.
You shall eat the riches of the Gentiles,
And in their glory you shall boast.
7 Instead of your shame you shall have double honor,
And instead of confusion they shall rejoice in their portion.
Therefore in their land they shall possess double;
Everlasting joy shall be theirs.

Eze 36 tells the same story to those who are gathered to the mountains of Israel that had long been desolate. God will remove the reproach of Israel and give them the new heart in the day he removes the reproach and again it is Israel enemies who are wiped out in this day and not Israel. You hold many contradictory positions. This contradiction is eliminated if the millennium is real and the 2nd coming is the transition point.

Her denominational beliefs prevent her from taking an objective look at the prophets. For most Christians, this is the real problem.

Clare73 · Jun 13, 2021

Brian Mcnamee said:
no doubt he stone is Jesus t when does he descend? You ignored Zech 14 and how it matches Rev and Luke one providing the deliverance of Israel. So Daniel describes the day the kingdom that comes and covers the earth that has no end more than once. So it is illogical that the kingdom can have more than one beginning. So if we take Dan 7 we see a pompous one is persecuting for 3 1/2" years before the kingdom is given to one like the son of man who is before the ancient of days. This pompous one is destroyed and
“I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.

Now this taken literally and seeing this as fulfilled at the 2nd coming makes a lot more sense than trying to say Jesus is ruling the world and has been for 2000 years.

It may "make a lot more sense to say," but it contradicts authoritative NT teaching in
1 Corinthians 15:25: "For he must reign until he has put everything under his feet."

Two things, Brian,
1) We've located the source of your misunderstanding of the "last things:"
Scripture is not your authority, what "makes sense" to you is your authority.

2) I'm not up for unraveling that erroneous spaghetti bowl which is the view held by many now of the future regarding God's only people, the one olive tree, the one vine, the one flock, the one body of Christ.
Don't take it personally, it's not about you, it's about the view.

The Church had never heard this view until the last couple hundred years.
It is new, it conflicts with authoritative NT teaching and doctrine, and it is seriously erroneous.

Not to mention the hours and hours it would take to unravel it at this point.

But thanks for participating.

RickReads · Jun 13, 2021

Clare73 said:
The Church had never heard this view until the last couple hundred years.

Not true, Peter is the culprit behind this view.

Acts 3
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Brian Mcnamee · Jun 13, 2021

Too bad you are not willing to go into detail to establish and defend your view it might be fun.

IS ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT GOD'S CHURCH?

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