The "patience" of Job.

Jamdoc · Jun 13, 2021

So, I'm always lectured about how Job is the model for how a saint should suffer, and it's always told to me as that he just praised God didn't complain didn't blame God for his suffering etc. It's often with the implication that any Christian who suffers things like losses or chronic illness shouldn't complain and should never ever attribute their suffering.... but...
While it's true Job refuses to curse God (which was the bet Satan was holding with God), Job 9, 10, and especially 16 are filled with Job complaining (and understandably so, he was in a bad way and his friends were not comforting but accusatory).. and in Job 16..

11 God hath delivered me to the ungodly, and turned me over into the hands of the wicked.
12 I was at ease, but he hath broken me asunder: he hath also taken me by my neck, and shaken me to pieces, and set me up for his mark.
13 His archers compass me round about, he cleaveth my reins asunder, and doth not spare; he poureth out my gall upon the ground.
14 He breaketh me with breach upon breach, he runneth upon me like a giant.

Job attributes his suffering to God. The exact thing Pastors tell us not to do, and claim that Job did not do.
So.. is the book of Job then an example of what NOT to do in suffering (complain and blame God), or is it an understandable moment that God does not consider sin (because afterall, God did give the permission to Satan to cause this suffering, so God is ultimately responsible due to sovereignty)

The Psalms also contain plenty of complaints about suffering, Psalms 6, Psalms 38, in particular, although they do acknowledge that in this case they are being chastised for sin. But in Job's case he was baffled as to what he did wrong to warrant chastisement.

So with those examples, is a Christian really taught to be stoic about suffering?

Portalmon · Jun 13, 2021

Stoic? Imho, probably not.

One thing I like about both Job and David is how HONEST they were in their prayers to God. The Hebrews writer says "For the word of God is living and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, even penetrating as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him to whom we must answer." (Heb 4:12ff). Knowing God knows every ounce of thought in our hearts, does it make any sense NOT to open up with Him and express what we're feeling?

What Job and David never did was blame God - or, impugn His motives - like the Israelites in the desert complained that Moses (and God, by extension) brought them to the desert to starve, to die.

Neither Job nor David ever lost their belief in God's character, His ultimately gracious, loving nature, His righteousness. It's reminiscent of Jesus' sufferings: "He who committed no sin, nor was any deceit found in His mouth; and while being abusively insulted, He did not insult in return; while suffering, He did not threaten, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously..." (I Pet 2)

There's something about life I honestly don't understand - and that's the apparent NEED for suffering here. Why is there evil at all? In heaven there'll be no suffering, no evil - so why must we endure it here? What's the point? Many have tried to answer it, to understand - as did Job, and David.

One possible answer does seem always to pop to the fore, and that is - for the sake of others: "if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God. For you have been called for this purpose, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you would follow in His steps," (I Pet 2)

Job is an amazing story, and an amazing character. He absolutely did nothing to deserve his suffering. But through it all, he remained faithful to God - even in his vocalizing of his suffering, he never impugned God's motives or character.

What is never revealed in the Job story, is what the impact of Job's suffering and eventual relief, had on his wife, his friends, and others around him.

Jamdoc · Jun 13, 2021

Portalmon said:
Stoic? Imho, probably not.

One thing I like about both Job and David is how HONEST they were in their prayers to God. The Hebrews writer says "For the word of God is living and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, even penetrating as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him to whom we must answer." (Heb 4:12ff). Knowing God knows every ounce of thought in our hearts, does it make any sense NOT to open up with Him and express what we're feeling?

What Job and David never did was blame God - or, impugn His motives - like the Israelites in the desert complained that Moses (and God, by extension) brought them to the desert to starve, to die.

Neither Job nor David ever lost their belief in God's character, His ultimately gracious, loving nature, His righteousness. It's reminiscent of Jesus' sufferings: "He who committed no sin, nor was any deceit found in His mouth; and while being abusively insulted, He did not insult in return; while suffering, He did not threaten, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously..." (I Pet 2)

There's something about life I honestly don't understand - and that's the apparent NEED for suffering here. Why is there evil at all? In heaven there'll be no suffering, no evil - so why must we endure it here? What's the point? Many have tried to answer it, to understand - as did Job, and David.

One possible answer does seem always to pop to the fore, and that is - for the sake of others: "if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God. For you have been called for this purpose, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you would follow in His steps," (I Pet 2)

Job is an amazing story, and an amazing character. He absolutely did nothing to deserve his suffering. But through it all, he remained faithful to God - even in his vocalizing of his suffering, he never impugned God's motives or character.

What is never revealed in the Job story, is what the impact of Job's suffering and eventual relief, had on his wife, his friends, and others around him.

Well he did blame God. He didn't think God was wrong in doing so, but he did attribute his suffering as being caused by God. He just didn't understand why. He wasn't blaming himself or his own sins, he didn't know of any that he'd be punished for. So he suffered, complained, and asked God "why are you doing this to me?"
and that's why this is in controversial theology. Because many Christians believe you should never ask God "why are you doing this to me" when it comes to something bad happening in your life. You either deserve it as chastisement (the accusation of Job's friends) or it wasn't caused by God. They'll say it's Satan's fault but God had nothing to do with it, God doesn't want you to suffer or be sick, etc.
To which I say, no.. because God is sovereign, even if Satan or Demons are the direct agents causing the suffering, they cannot do it without God permitting them to do it, making God ultimately the author of all pain. That is not saying God is unrighteous or evil however.
It's just in some cases the pain is corrective action in chastisement. Sometimes it is like Job, a test, and in some cases, it is to steer you to Him, make you dependent on Him, and to condition you for some purpose He has in mind.

The exaltation is that even if God is the author of our pain, He does it for what is ultimately our good.
Romans 8:28

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

So the admonition I would give, is that not every time that God touches your life, it's going to be a pleasant experience in this life. A lot of times that God taps someone on the shoulder, it involves some very unpleasant things. Very Godly men have suffered immensely, whether as a test like Job, or in bearing the wickedness of the world like Elijah, or in seeing the people he loved suffer and die while he stewed in a prison like Jeremiah.
It is however, ultimately for our good. God told Jeremiah he had good thoughts for him, thoughts of peace... but in the path of reaching those good goals and that peace, Jeremiah was imprisoned.
God does sometimes intend for you to suffer for a season, maybe even a lifetime.
If it is not chastisement for sin, then God has made it up to people like Job, and He raptured Elijah up to heaven rather than killing him, when Elijah was asking for his own death.

Maria Billingsley · Jun 13, 2021

Jamdoc said:
So, I'm always lectured about how Job is the model for how a saint should suffer, and it's always told to me as that he just praised God didn't complain didn't blame God for his suffering etc. It's often with the implication that any Christian who suffers things like losses or chronic illness shouldn't complain and should never ever attribute their suffering.... but...
While it's true Job refuses to curse God (which was the bet Satan was holding with God), Job 9, 10, and especially 16 are filled with Job complaining (and understandably so, he was in a bad way and his friends were not comforting but accusatory).. and in Job 16..

Job attributes his suffering to God. The exact thing Pastors tell us not to do, and claim that Job did not do.
So.. is the book of Job then an example of what NOT to do in suffering (complain and blame God), or is it an understandable moment that God does not consider sin (because afterall, God did give the permission to Satan to cause this suffering, so God is ultimately responsible due to sovereignty)

The Psalms also contain plenty of complaints about suffering, Psalms 6, Psalms 38, in particular, although they do acknowledge that in this case they are being chastised for sin. But in Job's case he was baffled as to what he did wrong to warrant chastisement.

So with those examples, is a Christian really taught to be stoic about suffering?

Job had faith that could not be shaken. David's faith took down a giant with one pebble. Solomon's faith gave him extrordinary wisdom . Samson's faith gave him emense strength through his hair. Abraham's faith proved his love for God. Many Christians were martyred because of their faith.
The take away here is" unwavering faith" when faced with persecution or responsibility. Be blessed.

biblelesson · Jun 13, 2021

Thank you for your post! I'm new here but want to share my thoughts and some of my experiences.
As for suffering like Job. I will confess, I have a bible that's in my dresser drawer that I won't get rid of. But it's torn. That's because I was so angry at God, while on my knees, praying, I ripped the pages asking why God, basically asking God why did He say one thing in His Word, but he didn't hold to that! I've come a long way from that situation of blaming God, yet I'm still in a suffering position, however, God has answered certain of my prayers. I have prayed for God to removed from me my anger, and allow me to see him as a loving God, and to take away the pain in my heart and soul for the hurt I was experiencing. I have always felt God was the one responsible for my situation, but at the same time, I feared blaming God. But truly in my heart, I was blaming God. And because I was being dishonest, trying to do what the preachers said, "don't blame God" I was confused, which cause me to lie about how I really felt. But I do believe God is understanding because he answered my prayer. He took away the hurt I had that God would do such a thing, "I said to God, my heart is broken." He took away the anger and blame when I confessed it. A lot of time has gone by and my situation is even worse, yet I don't blame God anymore I don't think. God is revealing to me what I have been enduring and why.

The suffering I'm suffering started in the womb, so I wonder what is God doing? Because my suffering started as a child, yet the reality of my situation presented itself as an adult under great suffering. So now that I know through God's revelation, and I'm still suffering, I don't understand what it means to suffer for Christ in the sense of dealing with trials, or suffering starting as a child. Because I thought the suffering would be once you receive Christ, you encounter trials. Not to say I have not done anything wrong, but as a child I could not have done anything wrong. As an adult I have done many things wrong. But without knowing that certain situations that's causing my suffering today started when I was a child, and is the reason for many of my bad situations as a young adult, I feel that if I had not found out what was going on, I would have been living a life of falsehood in Christ. However, thanks to God that He has revealed the truth to me, yet I don't know what God wants out of this situation for me because the danger still exists, and the people who are responsible still exists.

Mark Quayle · Jun 13, 2021

Jamdoc said:
So, I'm always lectured about how Job is the model for how a saint should suffer, and it's always told to me as that he just praised God didn't complain didn't blame God for his suffering etc. It's often with the implication that any Christian who suffers things like losses or chronic illness shouldn't complain and should never ever attribute their suffering.... but...
While it's true Job refuses to curse God (which was the bet Satan was holding with God), Job 9, 10, and especially 16 are filled with Job complaining (and understandably so, he was in a bad way and his friends were not comforting but accusatory).. and in Job 16..

Job attributes his suffering to God. The exact thing Pastors tell us not to do, and claim that Job did not do.
So.. is the book of Job then an example of what NOT to do in suffering (complain and blame God), or is it an understandable moment that God does not consider sin (because afterall, God did give the permission to Satan to cause this suffering, so God is ultimately responsible due to sovereignty)

The Psalms also contain plenty of complaints about suffering, Psalms 6, Psalms 38, in particular, although they do acknowledge that in this case they are being chastised for sin. But in Job's case he was baffled as to what he did wrong to warrant chastisement.

So with those examples, is a Christian really taught to be stoic about suffering?

Where do you find Job was "baffled as to what he did wrong to warrant chastisement"? I don't recall this in the book of Job. He does claim (unlike his friends claimed) that it was not because he had done wrong, that he was being attacked, but because God does what God does.

Also, notice that God says, that of Job and his 'friends', Job was the only one who spoke the truth concerning God. (Job 42:8) I believe here that God is referring to Job's overall acknowledgement of God's right to do whatever he chooses to do, or at least, certainly, the raw fact that God does as he pleases, and not always as a reaction to our sin vs godliness.

As for complaining, there are proscriptions against complaining, but not against crying out in pain. Even Christ (in my opinion) was doing exactly that when he cried out, "My God! My God! Why have you forsaken me?"

One of God's stronger statements against the ungodly is that they are not thankful. "Complaining" as Job was doing was not answered by the accusation that he was not being thankful, but that he was ignorant of God's purposes.

public hermit · Jun 13, 2021

Jamdoc said:
So, I'm always lectured about how Job is the model for how a saint should suffer, and it's always told to me as that he just praised God didn't complain didn't blame God for his suffering etc. It's often with the implication that any Christian who suffers things like losses or chronic illness shouldn't complain and should never ever attribute their suffering.... but...
While it's true Job refuses to curse God (which was the bet Satan was holding with God), Job 9, 10, and especially 16 are filled with Job complaining (and understandably so, he was in a bad way and his friends were not comforting but accusatory).. and in Job 16..

Job attributes his suffering to God. The exact thing Pastors tell us not to do, and claim that Job did not do.
So.. is the book of Job then an example of what NOT to do in suffering (complain and blame God), or is it an understandable moment that God does not consider sin (because afterall, God did give the permission to Satan to cause this suffering, so God is ultimately responsible due to sovereignty)

The Psalms also contain plenty of complaints about suffering, Psalms 6, Psalms 38, in particular, although they do acknowledge that in this case they are being chastised for sin. But in Job's case he was baffled as to what he did wrong to warrant chastisement.

So with those examples, is a Christian really taught to be stoic about suffering?

I agree, anyone who says we should be like Job and not complain when suffering have not read Job. Job laments a lot, lol. And that's what it is, lament. It's not sinful. In fact there is a biblical book called Lamentations!

God knows we don't understand everything and that we suffer. The idea that God somehow can't handle our complaints and lamentations, as if it offends God, is absurd. God can handle it.

As far as Stoicism is concerned, I wouldn't cast it out of hand without an inquiry. I suggest Epictetus. We know the early Christians quoted from Stoics and recognized similarities. It might give you a point of view that is not at variance with Xnty. There's even some apocryphal correspondence between Paul and Seneca (I believe). It's not actual, but highlights the fact that early Christians didn't reject the philosophy out of hand.

RickReads · Jun 13, 2021

Jamdoc said:
So, I'm always lectured about how Job is the model for how a saint should suffer, and it's always told to me as that he just praised God didn't complain didn't blame God for his suffering etc. It's often with the implication that any Christian who suffers things like losses or chronic illness shouldn't complain and should never ever attribute their suffering.... but...
While it's true Job refuses to curse God (which was the bet Satan was holding with God), Job 9, 10, and especially 16 are filled with Job complaining (and understandably so, he was in a bad way and his friends were not comforting but accusatory).. and in Job 16..

Job attributes his suffering to God. The exact thing Pastors tell us not to do, and claim that Job did not do.
So.. is the book of Job then an example of what NOT to do in suffering (complain and blame God), or is it an understandable moment that God does not consider sin (because afterall, God did give the permission to Satan to cause this suffering, so God is ultimately responsible due to sovereignty)

The Psalms also contain plenty of complaints about suffering, Psalms 6, Psalms 38, in particular, although they do acknowledge that in this case they are being chastised for sin. But in Job's case he was baffled as to what he did wrong to warrant chastisement.

So with those examples, is a Christian really taught to be stoic about suffering?

Job did not sin and he only asserted that God had allowed his calamity to happen. That wasn`t a sin because it was true. The whole thing happened because God allowed it to.

Job's indignation is towards his friends who falsely accused him of sin and proved to be no comfort to him. Job himself knew he had done nothing wrong.

To answer your question, we do not have to be stoic but it is not an excuse to sin. And again, in the Job example, Job did not sin. It was the people around Job that got in trouble -> The wife who encouraged Job to turn away from God and the friends who made the mistaken assumption that Job has sinned.

tdidymas · Jun 13, 2021

Jamdoc said:
So, I'm always lectured about how Job is the model for how a saint should suffer, and it's always told to me as that he just praised God didn't complain didn't blame God for his suffering etc. It's often with the implication that any Christian who suffers things like losses or chronic illness shouldn't complain and should never ever attribute their suffering.... but...
While it's true Job refuses to curse God (which was the bet Satan was holding with God), Job 9, 10, and especially 16 are filled with Job complaining (and understandably so, he was in a bad way and his friends were not comforting but accusatory).. and in Job 16..

Job attributes his suffering to God. The exact thing Pastors tell us not to do, and claim that Job did not do.
So.. is the book of Job then an example of what NOT to do in suffering (complain and blame God), or is it an understandable moment that God does not consider sin (because afterall, God did give the permission to Satan to cause this suffering, so God is ultimately responsible due to sovereignty)

The Psalms also contain plenty of complaints about suffering, Psalms 6, Psalms 38, in particular, although they do acknowledge that in this case they are being chastised for sin. But in Job's case he was baffled as to what he did wrong to warrant chastisement.

So with those examples, is a Christian really taught to be stoic about suffering?

Patience in that context actually means perseverance. The idea is that Job complained, but kept his faith that God was good, despite his suffering.

bling · Jun 13, 2021

Jamdoc said:
So, I'm always lectured about how Job is the model for how a saint should suffer, and it's always told to me as that he just praised God didn't complain didn't blame God for his suffering etc. It's often with the implication that any Christian who suffers things like losses or chronic illness shouldn't complain and should never ever attribute their suffering.... but...
While it's true Job refuses to curse God (which was the bet Satan was holding with God), Job 9, 10, and especially 16 are filled with Job complaining (and understandably so, he was in a bad way and his friends were not comforting but accusatory).. and in Job 16..

Job attributes his suffering to God. The exact thing Pastors tell us not to do, and claim that Job did not do.
So.. is the book of Job then an example of what NOT to do in suffering (complain and blame God), or is it an understandable moment that God does not consider sin (because afterall, God did give the permission to Satan to cause this suffering, so God is ultimately responsible due to sovereignty)

The Psalms also contain plenty of complaints about suffering, Psalms 6, Psalms 38, in particular, although they do acknowledge that in this case they are being chastised for sin. But in Job's case he was baffled as to what he did wrong to warrant chastisement.

So with those examples, is a Christian really taught to be stoic about suffering?

Here are some questions to get you thinking:

1. Was Job spiritually more mature at the end of Job’s story than at the beginning?

2. What problem did Job finally show that he needed correction?

3. Would Job have easily acknowledged this problem prior to the disaster, because he would have realized he had a problem?

4. Would God have known of Job’s problem prior to satan’s visit?

5. Did satan manipulate God to get at Job or did God manipulate satan to get satan to do stuff God could not do (hurt innocent people) and bring Job to the point of accepting God’s understanding of his problem?

6. Does this give us an example of the degree to which God will go in order to help us to grow spiritually?

7. Is this an example of the role satan plays indirectly helping good people become even better?

Is God manipulating satan did have satan do what God will not do directly?

8. It is “unfortunate” that some of Jobs children went to be with God in heaven and leave Job and his wife, but how big of a price will God pay to help us (send his only son)?

Look at this at least:

Job, He was the greatest man among all the people of the East.

This is the oldest story thought to be recorded, it could be before the time of the flood.
First!! Remember our objective: All humans are to develop and grow in Godly type love (agape) of God and other humans.
God’s objective is the most selfless, in that He has and will do everything to help human individually develop and grow Godly type love (help us fulfill our objective).
In the story of Job, we can see God is in charge, satan can only do what God allows Satan to do.
God has power over Satan and could destroy Satan at any time, so Satan has a purpose that forces God to allow Satan to stick around.
From the story we see Satan doing the bad stuff to good people and God allowing Satan to do this bad stuff.
Bad stuff is never bad for the individual that loves God: Rm8: 28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him. What good can Job get out of this discipline, trial, learning experience?
Job would have been praying for himself like he prayed for his kids: Early in the morning he would sacrifice a burnt offering for each of them, thinking, "Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts." This was Job's regular custom. Job’s pray would easily been to ask to love more and grow spiritually.
We can not stop, we have to be growing or we will start withering spiritually. Where Job is in his spiritual growth at the beginning seem to be far down the path so further growing could be a challenge and require a new level.
Job is fantastic at the beginning of the story, but he is not perfect, he can still do a lot of growing.
I think we can agree that Job is personally a better person (spiritually stronger) at the end of the story then at the beginning, so what was Job’s weakness in the beginning that God would know and realize? If we could figure this out we could figure what was needed to help Job. Would a burning bush experience help Job?
This is another situation in which God works with an individual personally. God is working with each of us very similarly.
We do not know how God worked individually with each of Job’s kids, but He was and they joined God in heaven and would be there when Job got there.
It has been my experience people (including myself) really hate to humble ourselves. It is like being baptized, people use every excuse for not being baptized that comes down to being a sign of humility they will not do.

At the end we see a changed Job:

1 Then Job replied to the LORD :

2 "I know that you can do all things;
no plan of yours can be thwarted.

3 You asked, 'Who is this that obscures my counsel without knowledge?'
Surely I spoke of things I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me to know.

4 "You said, 'Listen now, and I will speak;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.'

5 My ears had heard of you
but now my eyes have seen you.

6 Therefore I despise myself
and repent in dust and ashes."

The fact Job talks of “repenting”, means he realized he sinned, so what was Job’s sin?

Here seems to be the problem: Job 31: 35 (“Oh, that I had someone to hear me! I sign now my defense—let the Almighty answer me; let my accuser put his indictment in writing. 36 Surely I would wear it on my shoulder, I would put it on like a crown. 37 I would give him an account of my every step; I would present it to him as to a ruler.)—

From this and previous verses Job has lower God to his level like he could argue his case before God and win. Job would not have admitted that deep in his heart early on he saw God as being like some superior human being and not above making any mistakes, so it would take a huge upheaval in Job’s life to get him to realize this weakness in himself.

Job was humbled in the end, but why go through all this would there not be an easier way? If God had spoken directly to Job prior to all this would Job not have listened? I would say, “NO”. Job would have said, I know Lord (when he really didn’t) Job would not have said what he did say in the end and that is what he needed to say. How do you get Job to say what he did without going through what he experienced? If you had asked Job in the beginning, “do you know the Lord”, he would have said, “yes” for he knew the Lord better then anyone else at the time. God does not want you to just be the best, but the best you can be and that is what Job wanted.

Just some thoughts, I really love Job and thank God for this story.

Mark Quayle · Jun 13, 2021

bling said:
From this and previous verses Job has lower God to his level like he could argue his case before God and win. Job would not have admitted that deep in his heart early on he saw God as being like some superior human being and not above making any mistakes, so it would take a huge upheaval in Job’s life to get him to realize this weakness in himself.

This reminds me of CS Lewis' book "Til We Have Faces, A Fable Retold" where the main character of the story says, "I saw well why the gods do not speak to us openly, nor let us answer. Till that word can be dug out of us, why should they hear the babble that we think we mean?"

Jamdoc · Jun 13, 2021

tdidymas said:
Patience in that context actually means perseverance. The idea is that Job complained, but kept his faith that God was good, despite his suffering.

Yeah I don't mean to say Job was not persevering, but rather not in the way many pastors teach the book in that they read 1 verse "though he slay me, yet will I trust him" they ignore all the complaints that Job made and the statements that Job does recognize God as the author of his pain.
They teach that Job does not complain in some saintly stoicism.
The burden is them telling a Christian who suffers a chronic illness or persecution is that they're just supposed to be praise praise praise joy joy joy 24/7 and never complain. They're supposed to be dishonest about the fact that they're currently miserable. I find that unhelpful. Job complained, David complained and BEGGED God to comfort him. Jeremiah wrote a whole book of lamentations. Elijah asked God to kill him. Paul prayed for God to heal his affliction and eventually gave up accepting that God wanted him to have this affliction.

Jamdoc · Jun 13, 2021

bling said:
Here are some questions to get you thinking:

1. Was Job spiritually more mature at the end of Job’s story than at the beginning?

He perhaps had more perspective, that sometimes God would test those who are faithful to Him for their own good. But otherwise, from the first onsets of affliction until God spoke to them, he held the same position of faith, even not understanding why he was being afflicted.

2. What problem did Job finally show that he needed correction?

3. Would Job have easily acknowledged this problem prior to the disaster, because he would have realized he had a problem?

4. Would God have known of Job’s problem prior to satan’s visit?

5. Did satan manipulate God to get at Job or did God manipulate satan to get satan to do stuff God could not do (hurt innocent people) and bring Job to the point of accepting God’s understanding of his problem?

I don't think Job really had a problem, unless that problem was the assumption that God would only ever do pleasant things to him if he acted right. It was afterall, a test, and I think more than anything, it was to be used as an example to future generations that hey, if you haven't done anything warranting Chastisement but you're still suffering, don't lose faith (could be very easy to do), sometimes God is testing you or conditioning you.

6. Does this give us an example of the degree to which God will go in order to help us to grow spiritually?

I'm not entirely sure that the trial was necessary for Job unless God really wanted to get the point across to Job in particular that "sometimes from your perspective I'm not nice, sometimes I can seem mean, but I do it for good reasons". I think it was more for us reading it in the future or maybe to prove a point with Satan. Job just may have been the man most able to bear with the suffering God let him go through, people of lesser faith may have broken and cursed God, which would not be the example you want to be recorded. It's for our encouragement, not really Job himself.

7. Is this an example of the role satan plays indirectly helping good people become even better?

Is God manipulating satan did have satan do what God will not do directly?

Perhaps, it does show that while Satan is destined for the Lake of Fire, it shows why God has not actually put him there yet, why He lets Satan persist, why He gives Satan some privilege in fact, and why Satan still has access to heaven until the end times. Satan still serves one of God's purposes, in testing and refining His people, and accusing those who are not His people of their sins.

8. It is “unfortunate” that some of Jobs children went to be with God in heaven and leave Job and his wife, but how big of a price will God pay to help us (send his only son)?

I do have to hope that those children did in fact go to heaven and are being comforted by the Lord now. It's heavy for me to think that they're eternally punished without having been given much chance to repent because their life was short. The heaviest book for me to read is Joshua for the same reason. It's just genocide even the children. Achan's children being killed with him over their father's sin is another thing that weighs very heavy on me. I have to trust that God has made it up to those children and comforts them now.

Look at this at least:

Job, He was the greatest man among all the people of the East.

This is the oldest story thought to be recorded, it could be before the time of the flood.

I have heard this and I understand why it is that way because God is talking to Job about now extinct animals, but in the early parts of the book they mention the Chaldeans, which are the Babylonians, and not even the old old Babylonian Empire (Hammurabi) which existed around the time Israel was in Egypt, but the Neo-Babylonian Empire, they were the ones referred to as the Chaldeans, so it seems to have been written sometime around 700 BC or so. Ezekiel wrote of him, so it was definitely before captivity, but at a time when the Babylonians were a kingdom.

First!! Remember our objective: All humans are to develop and grow in Godly type love (agape) of God and other humans.

God’s objective is the most selfless, in that He has and will do everything to help human individually develop and grow Godly type love (help us fulfill our objective).

In the story of Job, we can see God is in charge, satan can only do what God allows Satan to do.

God has power over Satan and could destroy Satan at any time, so Satan has a purpose that forces God to allow Satan to stick around.

From the story we see Satan doing the bad stuff to good people and God allowing Satan to do this bad stuff.

This I agree with.

Bad stuff is never bad for the individual that loves God: Rm8: 28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him. What good can Job get out of this discipline, trial, learning experience?

The fact that God compensates Job for his suffering and not only restores his fortunes but increases them, to me says that the trial was less for Job himself, and more for us. The benefit for Job was not in undergoing the trial and suffering, but God had rewards for him for enduring it. If the trial was for personal growth, then the personal growth would have been the compensation itself. But because the trial's purpose was not really for Job but more for Satan and for future generations to have an example, God actively compensated Job for his suffering. Which to me teaches that if you suffer from sin, there is no reward from that, the suffering of chastisement is compensation for the sin you have done against God. If you suffer for personal growth, then the personal growth is the reward, but if you suffer to be an example to other people, God will actually compensate for that suffering.

Job would have been praying for himself like he prayed for his kids: Early in the morning he would sacrifice a burnt offering for each of them, thinking, "Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts." This was Job's regular custom. Job’s pray would easily been to ask to love more and grow spiritually.

We can not stop, we have to be growing or we will start withering spiritually. Where Job is in his spiritual growth at the beginning seem to be far down the path so further growing could be a challenge and require a new level.

Job is fantastic at the beginning of the story, but he is not perfect, he can still do a lot of growing.

I think we can agree that Job is personally a better person (spiritually stronger) at the end of the story then at the beginning, so what was Job’s weakness in the beginning that God would know and realize? If we could figure this out we could figure what was needed to help Job. Would a burning bush experience help Job?

This is another situation in which God works with an individual personally. God is working with each of us very similarly.

We do not know how God worked individually with each of Job’s kids, but He was and they joined God in heaven and would be there when Job got there.

It has been my experience people (including myself) really hate to humble ourselves. It is like being baptized, people use every excuse for not being baptized that comes down to being a sign of humility they will not do.

At the end we see a changed Job:

1 Then Job replied to the LORD :

2 "I know that you can do all things;
no plan of yours can be thwarted.

3 You asked, 'Who is this that obscures my counsel without knowledge?'
Surely I spoke of things I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me to know.

4 "You said, 'Listen now, and I will speak;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.'

5 My ears had heard of you
but now my eyes have seen you.

6 Therefore I despise myself
and repent in dust and ashes."

The fact Job talks of “repenting”, means he realized he sinned, so what was Job’s sin?

Here seems to be the problem: Job 31: 35 (“Oh, that I had someone to hear me! I sign now my defense—let the Almighty answer me; let my accuser put his indictment in writing. 36 Surely I would wear it on my shoulder, I would put it on like a crown. 37 I would give him an account of my every step; I would present it to him as to a ruler.)—

From this and previous verses Job has lower God to his level like he could argue his case before God and win. Job would not have admitted that deep in his heart early on he saw God as being like some superior human being and not above making any mistakes, so it would take a huge upheaval in Job’s life to get him to realize this weakness in himself.

Job was humbled in the end, but why go through all this would there not be an easier way? If God had spoken directly to Job prior to all this would Job not have listened? I would say, “NO”. Job would have said, I know Lord (when he really didn’t) Job would not have said what he did say in the end and that is what he needed to say. How do you get Job to say what he did without going through what he experienced? If you had asked Job in the beginning, “do you know the Lord”, he would have said, “yes” for he knew the Lord better then anyone else at the time. God does not want you to just be the best, but the best you can be and that is what Job wanted.

Just some thoughts, I really love Job and thank God for this story.

Well like I pointed out, I think Job's afflictions were more for us rather than for Job himself.

Maria Billingsley · Jun 13, 2021

biblelesson said:
Thank you for your post! I'm new here but want to share my thoughts and some of my experiences.
As for suffering like Job. I will confess, I have a bible that's in my dresser drawer that I won't get rid of. But it's torn. That's because I was so angry at God, while on my knees, praying, I ripped the pages asking why God, basically asking God why did He say one thing in His Word, but he didn't hold to that! I've come a long way from that situation of blaming God, yet I'm still in a suffering position, however, God has answered certain of my prayers. I have prayed for God to removed from me my anger, and allow me to see him as a loving God, and to take away the pain in my heart and soul for the hurt I was experiencing. I have always felt God was the one responsible for my situation, but at the same time, I feared blaming God. But truly in my heart, I was blaming God. And because I was being dishonest, trying to do what the preachers said, "don't blame God" I was confused, which cause me to lie about how I really felt. But I do believe God is understanding because he answered my prayer. He took away the hurt I had that God would do such a thing, "I said to God, my heart is broken." He took away the anger and blame when I confessed it. A lot of time has gone by and my situation is even worse, yet I don't blame God anymore I don't think. God is revealing to me what I have been enduring and why.

The suffering I'm suffering started in the womb, so I wonder what is God doing? Because my suffering started as a child, yet the reality of my situation presented itself as an adult under great suffering. So now that I know through God's revelation, and I'm still suffering, I don't understand what it means to suffer for Christ in the sense of dealing with trials, or suffering starting as a child. Because I thought the suffering would be once you receive Christ, you encounter trials. Not to say I have not done anything wrong, but as a child I could not have done anything wrong. As an adult I have done many things wrong. But without knowing that certain situations that's causing my suffering today started when I was a child, and is the reason for many of my bad situations as a young adult, I feel that if I had not found out what was going on, I would have been living a life of falsehood in Christ. However, thanks to God that He has revealed the truth to me, yet I don't know what God wants out of this situation for me because the danger still exists, and the people who are responsible still exists.

Do you love your God Jesus Christ of Nazareth?

Jamdoc · Jun 14, 2021

Maria Billingsley said:
Do you love your God Jesus Christ of Nazareth?

I don't think that's the question.
I suppose a point of this thread, is for Christians who suffer Chronicle Illnesses, what perspective do we look at it as.
The standard Christian view is that God doesn't want you to suffer, God doesn't cause suffering, and if you are suffering you're to be stoic about it or you deserved it (like how Job's friends treat it). As Job shows in the book, that is of no comfort. Because it points out that if God is truly not willing for you to suffer, then God is powerless to stop your suffering, and that while God must be credited for everything good that happens to you, He cannot be held responsible for anything bad that happens.

But Job (and the rest of the bible) teaches that God is the author of all things, including suffering, it's just for a Christian, that suffering serves a purpose that is ultimately good.
You can still love Jesus, even if you recognize that Jesus is ultimately responsible for some seasons of suffering in your life. It serves a good ultimate purpose. Either for yourself, or for the people around you. Maybe your suffering isn't even for your own sake, maybe your suffering might be to grow another person in compassion and agape love, because as we know, sometimes God puts "unlovable" people in your life in order to teach you how to love better.

One of the Blind men that Jesus healed in John 9, he was born blind, just so that Jesus could heal him and show the power of God through him.

it is not that different from reconciling that while God is love, God is also going to punish people forever over even "small" sins.

RDKirk · Jun 14, 2021

Jamdoc said:
So, I'm always lectured about how Job is the model for how a saint should suffer, and it's always told to me as that he just praised God didn't complain didn't blame God for his suffering etc. It's often with the implication that any Christian who suffers things like losses or chronic illness shouldn't complain and should never ever attribute their suffering.... but...
While it's true Job refuses to curse God (which was the bet Satan was holding with God), Job 9, 10, and especially 16 are filled with Job complaining (and understandably so, he was in a bad way and his friends were not comforting but accusatory).. and in Job 16..

Job attributes his suffering to God. The exact thing Pastors tell us not to do, and claim that Job did not do.
So.. is the book of Job then an example of what NOT to do in suffering (complain and blame God), or is it an understandable moment that God does not consider sin (because afterall, God did give the permission to Satan to cause this suffering, so God is ultimately responsible due to sovereignty)

The Psalms also contain plenty of complaints about suffering, Psalms 6, Psalms 38, in particular, although they do acknowledge that in this case they are being chastised for sin. But in Job's case he was baffled as to what he did wrong to warrant chastisement.

So with those examples, is a Christian really taught to be stoic about suffering?

Job did not blame God for his suffering--scripture says plainly that he did not. He did, however, attribute his suffering to God.

What is the difference?

"Blame" implies that the actor did not have the right to take that action.

A murderer is "blamed," but man who commits homicide in self defense is not "blamed."

A man who receives money in payment for labor is not "blamed;" a man who steals money is "blamed."

A man sees a pot in another man's home, decides he doesn't like it, walks in and breaks that pot. That man is "blamed" for vandalism. A potter makes a pot, decides he doesn't like it, and destroys it...he is not "blamed."

Job attributed his suffering to God, but he also asserted "The Lord giveth, the Lord taketh away." He acknowledge that God had the right, and thus could not be blamed.

Jamdoc · Jun 14, 2021

RDKirk said:
Job did not blame God for his suffering--scripture says plainly that he did not. He did, however, attribute his suffering to God.

What is the difference?

"Blame" implies that the actor did not have the right to take that action.

A murderer is "blamed," but man who commits homicide in self defense is not "blamed."

A man who receives money in payment for labor is not "blamed;" a man who steals money is "blamed."

A man sees a pot in another man's home, decides he doesn't like it, walks in and breaks that pot. That man is "blamed" for vandalism. A potter makes a pot, decides he doesn't like it, and destroys it...he is not "blamed."

Job attributed his suffering to God, but he also asserted "The Lord giveth, the Lord taketh away." He acknowledge that God had the right, and thus could not be blamed.

Okay, I can see that difference and you are right. It just seemed like a lot of time that we're not ever to attribute suffering to God, and that seems incorrect.
To be honest, it is more of a comfort to assign *responsibility* for suffering to God, that it is in His hands, rather than out of His will and thus out of His control if you suffer. Because you know that what God does, it is not needless, it is not vain, and it is not out of hate or just to hurt you.

Jamdoc · Jun 14, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Where do you find Job was "baffled as to what he did wrong to warrant chastisement"? I don't recall this in the book of Job. He does claim (unlike his friends claimed) that it was not because he had done wrong, that he was being attacked, but because God does what God does.

Also, notice that God says, that of Job and his 'friends', Job was the only one who spoke the truth concerning God. (Job 42:8) I believe here that God is referring to Job's overall acknowledgement of God's right to do whatever he chooses to do, or at least, certainly, the raw fact that God does as he pleases, and not always as a reaction to our sin vs godliness.

As for complaining, there are proscriptions against complaining, but not against crying out in pain. Even Christ (in my opinion) was doing exactly that when he cried out, "My God! My God! Why have you forsaken me?"

One of God's stronger statements against the ungodly is that they are not thankful. "Complaining" as Job was doing was not answered by the accusation that he was not being thankful, but that he was ignorant of God's purposes.

Job 23:1-5

1 Then Job answered and said,
2 Even to day is my complaint bitter: my stroke is heavier than my groaning.
3 Oh that I knew where I might find him! that I might come even to his seat!
4 I would order my cause before him, and fill my mouth with arguments.
5 I would know the words which he would answer me, and understand what he would say unto me

In other words, Job wanted to ask God why has he been judged, what'd he do to warrant these calamities. He wanted to plead his case, and hear the answer God would have for it..

eleos1954 · Jun 14, 2021

Jamdoc said:
So, I'm always lectured about how Job is the model for how a saint should suffer, and it's always told to me as that he just praised God didn't complain didn't blame God for his suffering etc. It's often with the implication that any Christian who suffers things like losses or chronic illness shouldn't complain and should never ever attribute their suffering.... but...
While it's true Job refuses to curse God (which was the bet Satan was holding with God), Job 9, 10, and especially 16 are filled with Job complaining (and understandably so, he was in a bad way and his friends were not comforting but accusatory).. and in Job 16..

Job attributes his suffering to God. The exact thing Pastors tell us not to do, and claim that Job did not do.
So.. is the book of Job then an example of what NOT to do in suffering (complain and blame God), or is it an understandable moment that God does not consider sin (because afterall, God did give the permission to Satan to cause this suffering, so God is ultimately responsible due to sovereignty)

The Psalms also contain plenty of complaints about suffering, Psalms 6, Psalms 38, in particular, although they do acknowledge that in this case they are being chastised for sin. But in Job's case he was baffled as to what he did wrong to warrant chastisement.

So with those examples, is a Christian really taught to be stoic about suffering?

I think the book of Job largely relates to this ...

“For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places” (Eph. 6:12, NKJV).

Maria Billingsley · Jun 14, 2021

Jamdoc said:
The standard Christian view is that God doesn't want you to suffer,

Don't you think if that were the case He would have answered His Son Jesus plea?
" Father, if you are willing, please take this cup of suffering away from me. Yet I want your will to be done, not mine."

The "patience" of Job.

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