What is the “one baptism” mentioned in Ephesians 4:5? (I have an answer, but I would like input).

LoveofTruth said:

So are you saying that the baptism “with” the Holy Ghost , after Christ death is the only way to be saved?
What do you do with all the Old Testament salvation and the salvation in Christ before Jesus died on the cross? (though salvation is not without his death in time)

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Jesus was on Earth to fulfill the promise of a kingdom to the Jews, preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom (Matthew 4:17).

Under that Kingdom, all Jews are supposed to accept Jesus as their King, and then be priests that will spread the message of the King to every nation.

This was prophesied in many OT prophets, some examples would be

Zechariah 8 explains

3 “Thus says the Lord: ‘I will return to Zion, And dwell in the midst of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be called the City of Truth, The Mountain of the Lord of hosts, The Holy Mountain.’

Later on, in the chapter in Zechariah 8:20-23 New Living Translation (NLT)

20 “This is what the Lord of Heaven’s Armies says: People from nations and cities around the world will travel to Jerusalem. 21 The people of one city will say to the people of another, ‘Come with us to Jerusalem to ask the Lord to bless us. Let’s worship the Lord of Heaven’s Armies. I’m determined to go.’ 22 Many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem to seek the Lord of Heaven’s Armies and to ask for his blessing. 23 “This is what the Lord of Heaven’s Armies says: In those days ten men from different nations and languages of the world will clutch at the sleeve of one Jew. And they will say, ‘Please let us walk with you, for we have heard that God is with you.’”

A similar prophecy was given in Micah Chapter 4 (NLT)

In the last days, the mountain of the Lord’s house will be the highest of all—the most important place on earth. It will be raised above the other hills, and people from all over the world will stream there to worship.
2 People from many nations will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of Jacob’s God. There he will teach us his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” For the Lord’s teaching will go out from Zion; his word will go out from Jerusalem.

Finally, the same prophecy was given in the book of Isaiah chapter 2:2

In the last days, the mountain of the Lord’s house will be the highest of all—the most important place on earth. It will be raised above the other hills, and people from all over the world will stream there to worship.

So, based on these 3 accounts, the timeline was supposed to be Jews are to be saved first, once they accept Jesus as the Messiah, then the Kingdom will be established in Jerusalem and the Jews will then be priests spreading that blessings to all the Gentiles.

So in order for Jews to fulfill the role of priests, all of them must be water baptized. This was not a requirement before John and Jesus came on Earth, but because both of them came in preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, water baptism became required as part of the salvation process.

LoveofTruth said:

So are you saying that the baptism “with” the Holy Ghost , after Christ death is the only way to be saved?
What do you do with all the Old Testament salvation and the salvation in Christ before Jesus died on the cross? (though salvation is not without his death in time)

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According to Jesus in John 3 and Paul in Ephesians 2:1-10, salvation only comes through the new birth by the power of the Holy Spirit. According to the writer to the Hebrews in chapter 11, all believers in the Old Testament (often described as the survivors or remnant) have true faith, which comes with the Holy Spirit's work too in giving the new birth. As Hebrews 11 says, the Old Testament believers were saved with hope looking forward to Jesus' coming when he established the new people of God to replace Israel.

Bruce Leiter said:

As Hebrews 11 says, the Old Testament believers were saved with hope looking forward to Jesus' coming when he established the new people of God to replace Israel.

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Which part of Hebrews 11 tells you Israel will be replaced?

disciple Clint said:

Not at all, Jesus clearly ordered that people be baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, This is not the same as the baptism given by John.

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To teach all nations , baptizing them in the name, does not mention water here. If so, show me the water in that verse. To immerse into a the name is to immerse them into the character and power and life of God the father the Son and the Holy Ghost manifest the true character of the one God... there is much ti say about this section of scripture I hope to get to it later. But know that even in the Ot we read of the name of the Lord is a strong tower the righteous run into it and are safe. and many other verses

and so KJV the teaching is what they hear and believe and the baptizing is an action that follows that belief n the teaching. Its like saying, I will teach you of the gospel which will give you understanding and immerse (baptizing) you into the character and knowledge of God.

we read teach all nations, baptizing them. So the teaching immerses them into the name. The word name means character here and authority in that character and life. We also read that whatever we do in word and deed to do all in the name of Jesus Christ, so this "in the name" aspect means in the character and power of Christ. It is not a formula or repeated words alone.

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"(Matthew 28:19 KJV)

Jesus said one time that while he was on the earth he kept them in the fathers name. Now the fullness is to be manifest to the world of the triune God (the father, The Son and The Holy Ghost).

Guojing said:

Which part of Hebrews 11 tells you Israel will be replaced?

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No, their faith looked forward to Jesus' coming and the new Jerusalem, which according to Revelation 21 and 22 involves both Old and New Testament believers. That new Jerusalem replaces the old Jerusalem and old Israel. Present-day Jews are called to join that New Testament people of God.

Bruce Leiter said:

No, their faith looked forward to Jesus' coming and the new Jerusalem, which according to Revelation 21 and 22 involves both Old and New Testament believers. That new Jerusalem replaces the old Jerusalem and old Israel. Present-day Jews are called to join that New Testament people of God.

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Are you still saying the same thing as here?

As Hebrews 11 says, the Old Testament believers were saved with hope looking forward to Jesus' coming when he established the new people of God to replace Israel.

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Hello all

Bruce Leiter said:

According to Jesus in John 3 and Paul in Ephesians 2:1-10, salvation only comes through the new birth by the power of the Holy Spirit. According to the writer to the Hebrews in chapter 11, all believers in the Old Testament (often described as the survivors or remnant) have true faith, which comes with the Holy Spirit's work too in giving the new birth. As Hebrews 11 says, the Old Testament believers were saved with hope looking forward to Jesus' coming when he established the new people of God to replace Israel.

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Hello friend, we can agree that the OT saints were saved by grace through faith as we are today and they had to still be in Christ and have the new birth. So this would show clearly that water baptism was not the way to be saved in either covenant, when did Abraham get water baptized, or John the baptist, who baptized him etc.

Guojing said:

Jesus was on Earth to fulfill the promise of a kingdom to the Jews, preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom (Matthew 4:17).

Under that Kingdom, all Jews are supposed to accept Jesus as their King, and then be priests that will spread the message of the King to every nation.

This was prophesied in many OT prophets, some examples would be

Zechariah 8 explains

3 “Thus says the Lord: ‘I will return to Zion, And dwell in the midst of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be called the City of Truth, The Mountain of the Lord of hosts, The Holy Mountain.’

Later on, in the chapter in Zechariah 8:20-23 New Living Translation (NLT)

20 “This is what the Lord of Heaven’s Armies says: People from nations and cities around the world will travel to Jerusalem. 21 The people of one city will say to the people of another, ‘Come with us to Jerusalem to ask the Lord to bless us. Let’s worship the Lord of Heaven’s Armies. I’m determined to go.’ 22 Many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem to seek the Lord of Heaven’s Armies and to ask for his blessing. 23 “This is what the Lord of Heaven’s Armies says: In those days ten men from different nations and languages of the world will clutch at the sleeve of one Jew. And they will say, ‘Please let us walk with you, for we have heard that God is with you.’”

A similar prophecy was given in Micah Chapter 4 (NLT)

In the last days, the mountain of the Lord’s house will be the highest of all—the most important place on earth. It will be raised above the other hills, and people from all over the world will stream there to worship.
2 People from many nations will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of Jacob’s God. There he will teach us his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” For the Lord’s teaching will go out from Zion; his word will go out from Jerusalem.

Finally, the same prophecy was given in the book of Isaiah chapter 2:2

In the last days, the mountain of the Lord’s house will be the highest of all—the most important place on earth. It will be raised above the other hills, and people from all over the world will stream there to worship.

So, based on these 3 accounts, the timeline was supposed to be Jews are to be saved first, once they accept Jesus as the Messiah, then the Kingdom will be established in Jerusalem and the Jews will then be priests spreading that blessings to all the Gentiles.

So in order for Jews to fulfill the role of priests, all of them must be water baptized. This was not a requirement before John and Jesus came on Earth, but because both of them came in preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, water baptism became required as part of the salvation process.

Click to expand...

Hello all

"Guojing, said

"So, based on these 3 accounts, the timeline was supposed to be Jews are to be saved first, once they accept Jesus as the Messiah, then the Kingdom will be established in Jerusalem and the Jews will then be priests spreading that blessings to all the Gentiles.

So in order for Jews to fulfill the role of priests, all of them must be water baptized. This was not a requirement before John and Jesus came on Earth, but because both of them came in preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, water baptism became required as part of the salvation process."

But this again is referring to Israel or spiritually those who are grafted into Christ as well as I see.

And the forms and shadows of diverse washings (baptisms) were imposed on them until the time of reformation.

The outward sacrifices and offerings and carnal ordinances and washings and meats and drinks were types of the spiritual reality. So they had to pass away and give way to the spiritual reality of being baptized into Christ, and eating spiritual meat and drink and spiritual sacrifices etc.

and water baptism does not save, nor is it part of the saving gospel .

You said.

"water baptism became required as part of the salvation process."

No, this is not part of the saving gospel. If you want to know what the saving gospel is read this.

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"(1 Cor 15:1-5 KJV)

Look closely for any water baptism or circumcision, or Mosaic law or ordinances or any sabbaths or carnal ordinances at all. You will find none.

disciple Clint said:

Not at all, Jesus clearly ordered that people be baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, This is not the same as the baptism given by John.

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we read,

Go therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost...” Matthew 28

Jesus tells the disciples to go and “Teach all nations”. This teaching does something, it baptizes them or immerses them into the name. This is telling, because the word “baptizing” is what the teaching does, it is an action word that is the result of their teaching all nations. To baptize here is the result of the teaching. and the baptizing is “in the Name”. To baptize or immerse into, a name, means to baptize into the character, authority, virtue attributes, power life of that name. Into a name is the baptism here. The name (singular) that they were to baptize them into is the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. These three are one God (1 John 5:7 KJV) and so to teach all nations of the truth of the gospel, the work and character of God, who has expressed himself and his work and truth through the Father the Son and the Holy Ghost, is how the world is immersed into, or baptized into the name.

This expression “in the name”, is what the baptism is into. This is not a formula for water baptism, or we would have seen this formula practiced in scripture.

The word “teach “ all nations. Is not just teaching with human wisdom and eloquence. God doesn’t call men to teach in their own power and understanding. “if any man speak let him speak as the oracles of God that god in all things might be glorified through Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 4:10 KJV). The teaching that is referred to is the anointed teaching in the Spirit and power of the Lord that quickens the heart and immerses the whole world with this knowledge of God. Jesus taught with authority (Matthew 7:29 KJV) and Jesus spoke in this power “And they were astonished at his doctrine: for his word was with power. Jesus gave this ability to the believers and who would teach all nations. Interestingly though Peter and others misunderstood this first part about going to all nations Peter needed a divine revelation and angels involved and sheet coming down before he would go. If he misunderstood the scope of this he may also have misunderstood the scope of the baptism teaching in the name also.

Paul said he did not come to them with words of mans wisdom but in the demonstration of the spirit and power (1 Cor 2)). He said that when they received the word from them they received it not as the word of men but as the word of God which effectually worketh in those that believe. When Peter was teaching and preaching the word to men, he had similar effect. We read that ““While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. “ Acts 10:44, and then the Holy Ghost was poured out to them that believed (Acts 10:45). Peters teaching or preaching to men, immersed them into the name of God ( the character, authority, divine influence, power life virtues revelation) of God

The apostles were baptized into Christ and the power to teach all nations. They were able by Gods grace to teach baptizing in the name, We see this in Acts “And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.” Acts 4:32. The word they taught and preached was in the Spirit and pricked the hearts of those that heard it as Peter was teaching them of The Son Jesus Christ and his death for their sin baptizing them into the name Acts “Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Jesus said that while he was with the disciples he taught and revealed the name of “the Father” to them. Speaking of the Father, he said, “ I have manifested thy name unto the men which though gave me (John 17), and “ I have kept them in thy name . How do you keep someone in the name ( or character power life attributes virtue) of that name. This is by the power of the Spirit and through faith. “We are kept by the power of God through faith” But they were particularly kept in the name or character, power, understanding and life of the Father. Jesus said he finished the work he was sent to do, he glorified the Father, John 17 verse.

The Father was revealed more fully through Jesus teaching. But now the Son has been more fully revealed also and the Holy Ghost more fully. So the teaching that will result in the baptizing (immersing) all nations into the name, is to reveal the full Godhead of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost and his work. This is the work of the Spirit and Paul said God’s ministers are “ministers of the spirit and not of the letter “ (verse 2 Cor and one more in there I think). This one God is revealed in three persons, this is called the trinity or Tri Unity. This trinity view did not begin with men, but was all through the bible and more fully revealed in the new Testament and commissioned by Jesus. This is the true God and his work and power will be known in all the earth.

When we say for example, that the Father sent the Son into the world and the Son (Jesus) died for our sins and was be burried and rose again from the dead, and that he will baptize us with the Holy Ghost. This is just a sample of the type of teaching that all nations should be baptized into. This baptism teaching immerses them into the power life character and virtue of the Lord.

Paul said that the gospel of Christ was what they received when preached to them and how they got saved and keep saved 1 Cor. 15;1-4.. All through the New Testament we see the work of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost taught and revealed.

The word “name” means “ character, authority” in Greek, 3686. The Lords character is expressed in many ways in the old Testament and the new. And this character is who he is and the attributes and virtue power life revelation of his glory etc. When God revealed aspects of his name they would come into a deeper relationship with Him. For example if he revealed himself as their deliverer or healer or provider or strength or as a mighty man of war etc. His name refers to many aspects of who he is. So to immerse all nations into the name is a profound and marvelous truth. This is done through the Power of the Spirit.

We read in scripture that the name of the Lord is much more than a formula or spoken words over men in a water baptism. Scripture speaks of this in many places, for example we read :” The name of the LORD is a strong tower: the righteous runneth into it, and is safe.” Proverbs 18:10 . "The name of the Lord is as ointment poured forth.” “ and “...I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me” John 17:11, “And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee” Psalms 9:10, “thy name is as ointment poured forth” Song of Solomon 1:3 . To run into the name of the Lord, and be kept in the name, is a far deeper revelation than a spoken formula in a ritual. The reader must ask, how are we kept in the name and how is the name of the Lord a strong tower that we run into?

We see this being baptized into the name also referred to being baptized in and into the name of Jesus Christ. To be baptized, (or immersed dipped as in a dye, covered whelmed) into a name, is to be in the character, authority, virtue, power, life, divine influence, and qualities of that name. To be baptized into the name Jesus Christ is to be in him and he in us and into the name of God our salvation. In fact believers are told that whatever they do to do all in the name of the Lord jesus Christ. Does this doing all mean that they should go through their life and verbally quote a formula with everything they do? Does this mean that if a believer picks up some spilled groceries in a store they should say “In the name of Jesus”, or when they pay at the counter they should say “in the name of Jesus?” Or when they purchase some food at a restaurant they should say to the waiter “in the name of jesus, or etc etc ? No this is not what it means. To be in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ is to be IN CHRIST, in his life as a new creation living from that new creation, this is the rule of our faith and practice. To live in the power life character and attributes of Christ is whatever we do in word or deed to come from Christ in us. Obviously whatever we do in word or deed has to do with what we DO and where the source of that doing comes from, which is God working in us to will and to do (Hebrews 13:20,21 KJV). It does not mean to verbally say with every word we speak “In the name of Jesus", imagine how that would sound if some took it literally. You meet a person and say “hello, in the name of Jesus, “MY”, in the name of Jesus, “Name” , in the name of Jesus, “Is” in the name of Jesus, “John”, in the name of Jesus”.

The character, word power ministry attributes of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost can be shown in many places as they are revealed in the New testament. But this would be an exhaustive study and the whole of the New testament speaks of the various work and operations of the three. Jesus spoke of these three yet one God in many places, when teaching ( or immersing the world into this name) . He spoke of the father many times and the Holy Ghost and his work. But in the new testament, the Holy Ghost has come and the fullness can we all receive, as Paul said “ of his fullness have we all received.

So this section of scripture is not speaking of a water baptism formula, as I see it from scripture and in truth. But the teaching is what baptizes them into the name or character power and life of the Father the Son and the holy Ghost. And so “But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD.” Numbers 14:21, “For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.” Habakkuk 2:14. “And blessed be his glorious name for ever: and let the whole earth be filled with his glory; Amen, and Amen.” Psalm 72:19. And so Jesus says go teach ALL NATIONS, baptizing them in the name of the father the Son and the Holy Ghost ....

In the Book of Acts we read about some men who tried to use a formula, and said that they cast out devils in the name of Jesus whom Paul preached. The devil said they knew Jesus and Paul but they dd not know them. That is because they were not in the “name “ of jesus Christ, or in his power life attributes, Spirit authority new nature etc. It is not enough to just use a formula. Men must be in Christ to be baptized in the name.

Bruce Leiter said:

In Philippi, Paul baptized the whole household of the jailer. The New Testament and the whole Bible are not steeped in individualism that our western culture is. For example, in Peter's Pentecost sermon, he says that the promise of the Holy Spirit is for the adult listeners and for their children.

Since water baptism doesn't save the "baptizee," if that's a word, and it is a sign of the inner new birth, the point is that infant baptism points forward to that miracle, which God promises and parents promise to work toward. It is the covenant given to Abraham in which he and his family were commanded to be circumcised in Genesis 17. Colossians 2 equates the meaning of baptism and circumcision. The same covenant continues in the new form that Jesus instituted to replace circumcision with baptism. That's why households were all baptized by the Jews and then also by Christians.

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Another objection is to say that water baptism is like circumcision in the old testament, and they will say that as circumcision was an outward sign of an inward work so water baptism is an outward sign of an inward work. So we can practice water baptism in the same understanding.

The problem with this interpretation is that they make water baptism no different than circumcision , only in form and ritual. It would be exactly the same.

But if we read how Paul speaks of circumcision in the New testament we can quickly see that he does not promote it or its continuance. he said. “ For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.” Romans 2:28,29.

But now for a consideration take those verses and replace water baptism for circumcision in them, and the christian in place of the Jew, if this is the same then read how it sounds.

“ For he is not a Christian, which is one outwardly; neither is that water baptism, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Christians, which is one inwardly; and baptism is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”

We can do the same thing with many other verses, here are only a few to consider among the many that can be shown.

“For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.” Galatians 5:6

“For in Jesus Christ neither water baptism availeth any thing, nor no water baptism; but faith which worketh by love.” Galatians 5:6

and

“For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.” Galatians 6:15

“For in Christ Jesus neither water baptism availeth any thing, nor water baptism, but a new creature.” Galatians 6:15

and

“Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.” Galatians 5:2


“Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be water baptized, Christ shall profit you nothing.” Galatians 5:2 (this would be for salvation if you are water baptized, or if you add works to the gospel.

and

“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.” Acts 15:1
and

“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be water baptised after the manner of Moses or John the baptist, ye cannot be saved.” Acts 15:1

and

.”..Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.” 1 Corinthians 7:18

.”..Is any called with no water baptism? let him not be water baptized.” 1 Corinthians 7:18


I think the point is made. Paul warned the Galatians of adding works to the gospel, and they were in danger of adding circumcision to the gospel and so making the gospel of no effect and Christ of no effect unto them. Similarly if men add water baptism to the gospel they make another gospel, and add works of righteousness which they have done to the gospel. Circumcision was to vanish away and so was water baptism. Paul said a similar thing in the end of Galatians that he said in Corinthians about this issue. he said to the corinthians that “Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with the wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ shall be made of no effect” 1 Cor 1:1516? Here he said that the cross of Christ is made of no effect, why? because to add works to the gospel makes is no effect and the cross is of no use. The cross of Christ puts to death all works of man in the flesh and all dead works we do, We can do nothing to save ourselves. Paul also says a very similar thing to the Galatians about this , only they were not in danger of adding water baptism to salvation there but circumcision was the danger. he said, “they constrain you to be circumcised, lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. here again similar wording, the cross of Christ is at risk, and the very purpose why Christ died and the very gospel itself. But Paul says again “But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.” Galatians 6:

But as many today may be circumcised for other reasons than salvation or attaching themselves to the old covenant etc. So many today are not lost if they water baptize as some sign and symbol, if they do not see it as a saving part of the gospel and add it to the gospel.

The problem is that they still hold to the Old Testament washing and Johns water baptism that was to cease and end as I have shown. and they do this following the Jewish church that practiced these things among many other old testament things while the old covenant was ready to vanish away and while they were in transition from the Old to the New. These things never vanished away.

But if it was not a salvation issue it is not a great danger. The problem is when they have to defend water baptism against those who say water baptism is the saving baptism and they press certain verses that seem to show this. Or another problem is when those who do not practice water baptism are pressed by those who say it is not for salvation, that they must do it or they doubt their salvation. Because of the stress in this area and lack of understanding, many will be water baptized, not for salvation but to condescend to the weakness of others. Though they do not claim to feel weak in this understanding at all.

The majority of believers will say, that water baptism is not for salvation but you have to do it, but its not what saves, but you must do it and are commanded to do it, but if you don’t you are ok, or maybe your not, but you must etc and back and forth. They tossle between this tension. The other side , those who say water baptism ifs for salvation will press them and say He that believes and is baptized shall be saved, and even the like figure whereunto baptism doth also now save us. and Acts 2:38 repent and be baptized ever one of you in the name of jesus Christ for the remission of sins. ( I will speak to this verse later).They will rest these type of verses to say water baptism is for salvation. But they are wrong also, as this whole proposition seeks to show as well.

Circumcision was part of the Mosaic law and of the typical shadows and ordinances that were to vanish away. “Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man. (John 7:22”). Johns water baptism belongs to the Old Covenant also, and is similar in type and shadow, and is not the inward baptism into Christ for salvation.

disciple Clint said:

Acts 8:36 As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water. What can stand in the way of my being baptized?"

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The Etheopian Eunich

There is another event that hints to the halakah law, it is the story of the Etheopian eunuch, in Acts 8. He hears the interpretation of a verse and Philip preached Jesus. When the eunuch received it, we read “And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest.” Acts 8:36,37. Then the eunuch was baptized in water. The first question is where did the eunuch get that question about water? as far as the text says, Philip said nothing to him about water baptism. The eunuch being a convert to Judaism, and recently having come from Israel would have known the requirements among the Jews for a prosylite, that was full immersion in water and circumcision. He was the one who said “see here is water, what doth hinder me to be baptized”. It appears that he was following the common custom among the Jews for water baptism. Philip also as a Jew would have had no issue with this.

But as far as a direct command from Jesus for such a thing, those who oppose this proposition are the ones that need to show that. Philip said “thou mayest”, if you believe with all your heart. The reality of the new life is a heart one and inward work. Not an outward washing with water. To say “thou mayest”, instead of saying “you must", or yes this is required” is different. But Philip was also as ,amy at that time not fully aware pf the laws decaying, and this eunuch was already a convert to Judaism.

As in many transitional issues the Jewish believers had with the law, God allowed them for a time and even though they were ready to vanish away. Judaism had a strong hold on the Jews who had been a apart of this and weined from their birth to this whole system of the Mosaic law and the tradition of the elders. It was not easy to let go of the Old and embrace the new.

In John we read another event where the Jewish pharisees said to John the baptist, “And they asked him, and said unto him, “Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ? John 1:25.”. They as Jews who had been practicing water immersion for a long time did not question the act of water baptism, but rather why he did it. Among the Jews besides the gentile water baptisms, they also had many ritual baptisms for converts to different sects among the Jews. These were like initiation into a different group or brotherhood. Groups like the Essenes had already practiced water baptism with their converts way before John the baptist came along.

The Jewish believers were keeping some of the rituals and ceremonies of Judaism, even though they were to be done away and cease, and they were, as the writer of Hebrews says “Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.” Hebrews 9:10. Interesting to note the word Washings” here is the same word for baptism, it is “Baptismos” in Greek. This is because, as I have already mentioned the Jews had many baptisms. But these diverse washings were not to continue but at the tome of reformation to cease.

The Jews still practiced the ;aw and were going to the temple and keeping many traditions and customs of the past. They had not yet fully seen the old covenant fade way or vanish.

Butterball1 said:

Acts of the Apostles 8:29 "Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot."

Why would the Spirit send Phillip to teach and water baptize the eunuch if water baptism is not the one baptism of Eph 4:5...not the baptism of Christ's great comission? Why didn't the Spirit just "spirit baptize" the eunuch Himself. No need to send for Phillip........unless the Spirit had it wrong too and needs those on this forum to correct Him. If Phillip was wrong he in what he taught the eunuch why didn't the Spirit intecede and stop him?

Peter commanded (command = requirement, a necessity) water baptism to the Gentiles Acts of the Apostles 10:47-48.

To accuse the Apostles to be wrong on this issue is undermining their inspiration and making the BIble irrelevant. If they were wrong on this issue then that opens the door they could be wrong on other issues therefore the Bible cannot be 'true' (John 17:17) if it contains error therefore cannot be trusted. Once the genies is out of the bottle, there is nothing to stop anyone from accusing the Aposltes of being wrong. What if I personally do not like what the Apostles spoke about on a a particular issue? I can simply declare the Apostles were wrong, I am right...don't listen to the inspired Bible writers but listen to me, a unknown internet poster with a theological agenda. I have seen many attempts to get around the necessity of water baptism but I think this is the first time I have seen inspired Bible writers being accused of being wrong in order to get around that necessity of water baptism.

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Peter was still under the law and Old Testament and customs and so when a Gentile got converted they water baptized then and they followed Johns water baptism also for a while as they did the other carnal ordinances and diverse washings etc.

But here in Acts 10 we see that the Gentiles were revealed to Peter as having access into the grace and Peter was troubled, for he heard them speak with tongues, believe and all before water baptism. It seemed God was showing something different for them. Then in the next chapter when referring this to others what happened he said he then remembered the words of the Lord how that John baptized with water, but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. It seems that God did not want the Gentiles to come under the law and customs of the Jews that were fading away and then have to take them out in the future. Peter, being a Jew was still going to the temple sacrificing and following the law and customs. But this was not for the Gentiles in the new covenant and the Jews were in a time of reformation and it was fading away. Paul, the apostle to the Gentles said Christ sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel. So it seems to me that the Gentiles did not have to keep the law of Moses and the customs etc ( Acts 15 and 21) and that Peter was merely following his best understanding of bringing the Gentiles into the Jewish fold and under the law. We read later in Acts 15 that this was an issue and some of the Jewish believers were trying to say that the Gentiles must keep the law of Moses and be circumcised to be saved. To which Paul and others and even Peter disagreed. They did not have to do this as was told later in Acts 15 and again reminded of in Acts 21.

bling said:

Paul did not say he did wrong by baptizing people in Corinth, since he did personally baptize some..

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Paul said Christ sent him NOT to baptize but to preach the gospel. He defines in the same letter what that gospel is, (1 Cor 15) and no water is added to it. So Paul also speaks of the one saving baptism into Christ in 1 Cor 12:13 which all believers are part of.

But as far as why Paul baptized a few. He also was sensitive to the Jewish aspect of reformation and coming out of the old into the new I believe. And we do also see Paul circumcising Timothy in Acts 16. The question is, why did Paul circumcise Timothy if he was not sent to do that? and if Paul was not sent to circumcise, then why did he do it? When you find the answer to that question I believe you will have a answer in part as to why Paul water baptized a few.

here is the verse to consider.

"Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father was a Greek:2Which was well reported of by the brethren that were at Lystra and Iconium.3Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek."(Acts 16:1-3 KJV)

But notice in Galatians Paul would not circumcise a Gentile Titus. Timothy was part Jew and so Paul condescended to the weakness of the time I believe. But when they wanted to press circumcision on a Gentile Paul took great offence. Read Galatians chapter 2. This again shows the Jewish and gentile issues of the time and the Jews coming out of the Old Covenant and customs and the gentiles not having to join with the Old Covenant and them come back out again.

LoveofTruth said:

Hello all

"Guojing, said

"So, based on these 3 accounts, the timeline was supposed to be Jews are to be saved first, once they accept Jesus as the Messiah, then the Kingdom will be established in Jerusalem and the Jews will then be priests spreading that blessings to all the Gentiles.

So in order for Jews to fulfill the role of priests, all of them must be water baptized. This was not a requirement before John and Jesus came on Earth, but because both of them came in preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, water baptism became required as part of the salvation process."

But this again is referring to Israel or spiritually those who are grafted into Christ as well as I see.

And the forms and shadows of diverse washings (baptisms) were imposed on them until the time of reformation.

The outward sacrifices and offerings and carnal ordinances and washings and meats and drinks were types of the spiritual reality. So they had to pass away and give way to the spiritual reality of being baptized into Christ, and eating spiritual meat and drink and spiritual sacrifices etc.

and water baptism does not save, nor is it part of the saving gospel .

You said.

"water baptism became required as part of the salvation process."

No, this is not part of the saving gospel. If you want to know what the saving gospel is read this.

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"(1 Cor 15:1-5 KJV)

Look closely for any water baptism or circumcision, or Mosaic law or ordinances or any sabbaths or carnal ordinances at all. You will find none.

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You are correct, we in the Body of Christ are not saved by water baptism, in the gospel of the grace of God given to Paul.

I was talking about the nation Israel under the gospel of the kingdom.

LoveofTruth said:

Paul said Christ sent him NOT to baptize but to preach the gospel. He defines in the same letter what that gospel is, (1 Cor 15) and no water is added to it. So Paul also speaks of the one saving baptism into Christ in 1 Cor 12:13 which all believers are part of.

But as far as why Paul baptized a few. He also was sensitive to the Jewish aspect of reformation and coming out of the old into the new I believe. And we do also see Paul circumcising Timothy in Acts 16. The question is, why did Paul circumcise Timothy if he was not sent to do that? and if Paul was not sent to circumcise, then why did he do it? When you find the answer to that question I believe you will have a answer in part as to why Paul water baptized a few.

here is the verse to consider.

"Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father was a Greek:2Which was well reported of by the brethren that were at Lystra and Iconium.3Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek."(Acts 16:1-3 KJV)

But notice in Galatians Paul would not circumcise a Gentile Titus. Timothy was part Jew and so Paul condescended to the weakness of the time I believe. But when they wanted to press circumcision on a Gentile Paul took great offence. Read Galatians chapter 2. This again shows the Jewish and gentile issues of the time and the Jews coming out of the Old Covenant and customs and the gentiles not having to join with the Old Covenant and them come back out again.

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Scripture tells us why Paul circumcised Timothy (he was at least partly Jew).
I would say the same reason Jesus did not baptize anyone (Jesus disciples baptized many with the baptism of John at the time) would be a excellent reason why Paul limited his baptism. I would say Jesus did not personally baptize people is because they might make it to be much more significate then it is and the person baptized by Christ might take pride in the fact. Paul is talkikng about people taking pride at this time in Corrinth because they had been baptized by someone inportant. Water emmersion adult baptism is not part of the "Good News" (water does not do anything), but is something the accepted of the "Good News" gets to do to help them with their commitment.

Guojing said:

You are correct, we in the Body of Christ are not saved by water baptism, in the gospel of the grace of God given to Paul.

I was talking about the nation Israel under the gospel of the kingdom.

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There is still only one saving gospel in the old and new Covenant. But the righteousness of God being witnessed in the Ot under shadows and types etc was fully known in the work and person of Jesus Christ. It is God's righteousness for the remission of sins that is the heart of the gospel.

"21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 2 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus."(Romans 3:21-26 KJV)

Matthew 5:6
"Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled."


Paul and Peter both preached the same gospel. This can be shown clearly in scripture.

and the gospel of the grace of God was also given and preached by Peter and all saved Jews as well

consider

"
And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they."(Acts 15:7-11 KJV)

there is much to say on the righteousness of God and the gospel in the OT and New, but I just wanted to address your comment

LoveofTruth said:

There is still only one saving gospel in the old and new Covenant. But the righteousness of God being witnessed in the Ot under shadows and types etc was fully known in the work and person of Jesus Christ. It is God's righteousness for the remission of sins that is the heart of the gospel.

"21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 2 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus."(Romans 3:21-26 KJV)

Matthew 5:6
"Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled."


Paul and Peter both preached the same gospel. This can be shown clearly in scripture.

and the gospel of the grace of God was also given and preached by Peter and all saved Jews as well

consider

"
And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they."(Acts 15:7-11 KJV)

there is much to say on the righteousness of God and the gospel in the OT and New, but I just wanted to address your comment

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I respect your different interpretation of scripture.

JAL said:

One baptism (in the epistles) means the water baptism common to all the recipients of Paul's letters, all the members of the early church, and thus refers to REAL water-baptism (Living Water baptism at the hands of the apostles or delegates in any stream or container of water available at those moments). This WAS indeed a Spirit-baptism. What you think are two things were, in those days, one and the same thing.

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I don't agree here.

Paul mentions the baptism to the Corinthians that is the one baptism that all must have and it is not water baptism, he says,

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."(1 Cor 12:13 KJV)

This baptism is by the Spirit, not man. And all are part of this. This baptism is "into one body". Paul uses similar expressions in other places and says that

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."(Galatians 3:27) Paul shows here that the expression "baptized into Christ" is the reality and he is not speaking of being baptized into water. There are great distinctions in the TWO different baptisms. Jesus said the same in Acts 1 when he was trying to teach them about the difference of the two and the old and new . He shows that Johns baptism was past and there is a new one. He does not say the two are one now and done together. You are creating a doctrine of water and Spirit baptism that is not what we see in scripture.

"For John truly baptized [past tense] with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence."(Acts 1:5 KJV)

In fact we see that Pater, when he saw the gentiles filled with the Spirit and already saved, had done no water baptism as of yet to them in Acts 10. Then he afterwards followed the old covenant way of John water baptism. We see that he did this when in chapter 11 he re accounts the event and then remembered the words of the Lord, He said,

"Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost."(Acts 11:16 KJV)

We see here that Jesus reminded Peter during that event of what he said to them at the beginning in Acts 1. He reminded Peter that John baptized with water, (past tense) but ye shall be baptized (future tense), with the Holy Ghost. Peter needed this reminder. The Jews were still coming out of the Old Covenant and they were in a time of reformation and transition. But the Gentiles did not need to go under the law and Old Covenant then come out of it again. This seems clear form the situation. And later in Acts 15 we see that Peter reminded the brothers about the Gentles salvation that happened in Acts 10 and the whole church with God did not put any of the Gentiles under the Old Covenant on or for them to keep the Mosaic law, only a few things were agreed upon relating to the strangers among the Jews. Remember, the Jewish believers at this time and all through Acts were still going to the temple and sacrificing animals and following strictly to the Mosaic law and customs. They did not need to be under that any more, but it took time to come out. Paul spent many letters teaching about these things.

Ans so the expression to be baptized into Christ " or as Peter said on Pentecost, "be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ" are similar and have a deep meaning spiritually, even if Peter may not have fully understood the depth. I am sure that many prophets of the OT spoke things from God that even they did not have full understanding on when they read it back.

JAL said:

As the birthday of the modern church, Pentecost had to be the prime example of witnessing for all future generations - and God kicked it off by recording Peter speaking a bunch of guesswork on his own? That seems insanely weak but you can believe it if you want to.

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Remember that Peter was still going to the temple that day along with all the other Jews. Even he and other believers were still under the law and customs and animal sacrifices at that time (and right up to and past Acts 21). It was a time of reformation and Jesus told them that he had many things to say and to judge of them but at the time he said that they were not able to bear it. It took time to understand many things. Even when Peter went to Cornelius he did so by a revelation and he was still uneasy about it. But jesus had told them that the gospel would be preach to all nations earlier, yet Peter was struggling. So yes we do see that Peter spoke by the Spirit , but the interpretation of that is deeper.

You might ask why did Paul circumcise Timothy in Acts 16 when he was not called to do that specifically?

Or you might read Acts 15 where the believing Jews argued about the gentiles being saved by keeping the law and circumcision. We see a transition in understanding all through Acts. God was patient and gracious with them as they began to be able to bear the New testament understanding.