JESUS and the APOSTLES OBEYED GOD'S LAW and the SABBATH!

Status
Not open for further replies.

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
10,021
4,233
USA
✟470,520.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Thank you for the nice response.

I'm not sure if you missed a law or not, because I'm not sure what laws you put in the category of civil laws and health laws.
My question to you was not based on categories. What law comes up in your daily life that is missing from my list. This should be easy enough to answer. If you have to look than it's not something that comes up in your daily life. For example: I know lying comes to play daily. This could be as simple as not being truthful on taxes, or answering a question with a half truth. It's comes up in our daily lives much more than people realize, same with the other nine commandments.
 
Upvote 0

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
8,127
2,191
54
Northeast
✟177,938.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
My question to you was not based on categories. What law comes up in your daily life that is missing from my list. This should be easy enough to answer. If you have to look than it's not something that comes up in your daily life. For example: I know lying comes to play daily. This could be as simple as not being truthful on taxes, or answering a question with a half truth. It's comes up in our daily lives much more than people realize, same with the other nine commandments.
Well, Passover comes around every year. Looking at Exodus 12, it looks like it marks the beginning of a new calendar year. So that would be a civil law.

Then it talks about not eating yeast for a week. That would be a health guideline.

That would be an example of a daily thing, for those days of the a year.
 
Upvote 0

Titus Dorn

Active Member
Feb 26, 2021
242
35
47
Freetown
✟21,658.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Sabbath keeping belonged to the Jewish dispensation, Exodus 20:8 Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
For the Sabbath to be binding today, the Old Testament would have to be binding today. The law of Moses which included the Sabbath command, has been done away, Colossians 2:14-17
Having wiped out the handwriting of requirements(law of Moses) that was against us, which was contrary to us. And HE HAS TAKEN IT OUT OF THE WAY, HAVING NAILED IT TO THE CROSS. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or SABBATHS. Which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

The Sabbath command was given to fleshly Isreal Exodus 20:1-2 And God spoke all these words saying: I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Exodus 31:12-13 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, Speak also to the children of Isreal saying: Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you(jews) throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you.

Deuteronomy 5:1-3 And Moses called all Israel and said to them: Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgements which I speak in your hearing today, that you may learn them and be careful to observe them. The Lord our God made a COVENANT WITH US in Horeb. The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, BUT WITH US, those who are here today, all of US who are alive.

If you keep the Sabbath day, were you among those brought out of Egypt?

If the Sabbath day is still binding, then in order to keep the Sabbath properly, you would have to:

Do no servile work, Exodus 35:1-3 Then Moses gathered all the congregation of the children of Israel together and said to them, These are the words which the Lord has commanded you to do: Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh day shall be a holy day for you, a Sabbath of rest to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it SHALL BE PUT TO DEATH. You shall kindle no fire throughout your dwellings on the Sabbath day.

Offer a burnt offering, Numbers 28:9-10 And on the Sabbath day two lambs in their first year, without blemish and two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour as a grain offering, mixed with oil, and its drink offering- this is the burnt offering for every Sabbath, besides the regular burnt offering with its drink offering.

Kindle no fire, Exodus 35:3

And not go out of your place, Exodus 16:29 See! For the Lord has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days. Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.

Do you do this?

Keeping the Sabbath day makes one a debtor to do the whole law, Galatians 5:3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.

If you keep the Sabbath do you burn incense, offer animal sacrifices and go to Jerusalem to worship three times in a year?

We live under the law of Christ, Galatians 6:2 Bear one another's burdens and so fulfil the law of Christ.

And Christians are bound to keep the first day of the week, Acts 20:7; 1Corinthians 16:1-2
Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given orders to the churches of Galatia, so you must do also: On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come

In the new testament there is no command to keep the Sabbath day and no penalty for not keeping it.


 
  • Informative
Reactions: Leaf473
Upvote 0

Studyman

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
2,117
618
65
Michigan
✟318,578.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
When one long post is followed by another, I usually respond to a point in the most recent post. So you are definitely correct that I haven't responded to a lot of your points and questions.

Yes, I'll be happy to go through a post of yours section by section.

Which one would you like me to start with?

I believe if you would read the post you replied to, I have already answered this question.
 
Upvote 0

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
8,127
2,191
54
Northeast
✟177,938.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I believe if you would read the post you replied to, I have already answered this question.

Do you mean start at the top and work my way through?
It might be prudent to start at the top and go down.

If so, do you mean start at the top as in your first post to me? Or do you mean start at the beginning of a particular post?
 
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
10,021
4,233
USA
✟470,520.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Well, Passover comes around every year. Looking at Exodus 12, it looks like it marks the beginning of a new calendar year. So that would be a civil law.

Then it talks about not eating yeast for a week. That would be a health guideline.

That would be an example of a daily thing, for those days of the a year.
We no longer offer blood sacrifice on the Passover as Jesus was our sacrifice, but we have communion as a memorial to our Saviors great sacrifice to us.

If you are only supposed to do something seven days out of the year, would you consider that a health guideline? Does God tell us we cannot eat yeast or is there a greater meaning here?

I hope you are not waiting to figure out each and everyone of the law of Moses before deciding if you want to keep God's laws. Paul very simply told us what matters is keeping God's commandments 1 Corinthians 7:19
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Freth
Upvote 0

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
8,127
2,191
54
Northeast
✟177,938.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
We no longer offer blood sacrifice on the Passover as Jesus was our sacrifice, but we have communion as a memorial to our Saviors great sacrifice to us.

If you are only supposed to do something seven days out of the year, would you consider that a health guideline? Does God tell us we cannot eat yeast or is there a greater meaning here?

I hope you are not waiting to figure out each and everyone of the law of Moses before deciding if you want to keep God's laws. Paul very simply told us what matters is keeping God's commandments 1 Corinthians 7:19
Well, the first part of the commandment is this

Exodus 12:2 This month shall be to you the beginning of months. It shall be the first month of the year to you.

Do you consider that a civil law, and therefore an eternal commandment?

I would consider an instruction not to eat yeast for 7 days out of a year to be a health guideline, yes. Maybe science will learn that it is healthy to give our bodies a break from yeast once a year.

No, I am not waiting to figure out each and every one of the laws of Moses before deciding if I want to keep God's laws.

I am discussing with you how practical it is to separate the laws given through Moses into eternal laws and temporary laws.
 
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
10,021
4,233
USA
✟470,520.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Sabbath keeping belonged to the Jewish dispensation, Exodus 20:8 Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
For the Sabbath to be binding today, the Old Testament would have to be binding today. The law of Moses which included the Sabbath command, has been done away, Colossians 2:14-17
Having wiped out the handwriting of requirements(law of Moses) that was against us, which was contrary to us. And HE HAS TAKEN IT OUT OF THE WAY, HAVING NAILED IT TO THE CROSS. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or SABBATHS. Which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

The Sabbath command was given to fleshly Isreal Exodus 20:1-2 And God spoke all these words saying: I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Exodus 31:12-13 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, Speak also to the children of Isreal saying: Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you(jews) throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you.

Deuteronomy 5:1-3 And Moses called all Israel and said to them: Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgements which I speak in your hearing today, that you may learn them and be careful to observe them. The Lord our God made a COVENANT WITH US in Horeb. The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, BUT WITH US, those who are here today, all of US who are alive.

If you keep the Sabbath day, were you among those brought out of Egypt?

If the Sabbath day is still binding, then in order to keep the Sabbath properly, you would have to:

Do no servile work, Exodus 35:1-3 Then Moses gathered all the congregation of the children of Israel together and said to them, These are the words which the Lord has commanded you to do: Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh day shall be a holy day for you, a Sabbath of rest to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it SHALL BE PUT TO DEATH. You shall kindle no fire throughout your dwellings on the Sabbath day.

Offer a burnt offering, Numbers 28:9-10 And on the Sabbath day two lambs in their first year, without blemish and two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour as a grain offering, mixed with oil, and its drink offering- this is the burnt offering for every Sabbath, besides the regular burnt offering with its drink offering.

Kindle no fire, Exodus 35:3

And not go out of your place, Exodus 16:29 See! For the Lord has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days. Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.

Do you do this?

Keeping the Sabbath day makes one a debtor to do the whole law, Galatians 5:3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.

If you keep the Sabbath do you burn incense, offer animal sacrifices and go to Jerusalem to worship three times in a year?

We live under the law of Christ, Galatians 6:2 Bear one another's burdens and so fulfil the law of Christ.

And Christians are bound to keep the first day of the week, Acts 20:7; 1Corinthians 16:1-2
Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given orders to the churches of Galatia, so you must do also: On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come

In the new testament there is no command to keep the Sabbath day and no penalty for not keeping it.

This post has 95 pages and you may have missed reading them because each area of your post has been answered directly. I will provide some highlights though in case you missed it.

There is no commandment in the entire bible that say the first day of the week is holy or God's Sabbath or a day that God blessed. The apostles do not have the authority to override God's commandments, nor would they go against God's commandments or what Jesus taught. Jesus kept the Sabbath Luke 4:16 as did the disciples. Acts 18:4. The apostles did not teach a different gospel than Jesus, nor did Jesus ever teach anything other than God's Sabbath is God's holy day, which Jesus said was made for man Mark 2:27. You might want to notice Jesus did not say made for Jews, man is everyone. God created man on the six day and the very next day was Sabbath. God designed man in the likeness of Himself. The seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God so therefore it is our Sabbath too that God commanded us to keep holy Exodus 20:8-11.

If you are of Christ, there is no Jew or Gentile Galatians 3:28,29- God's children are all part of God's Israel which comes with the promises and the laws. God is not going to save Jews one way and everyone else saved by another way. Heaven is not going to be segregated Jews worship God on Sabbath and everyone else gets to pick the day they prefer to worship God. Isaiah 66:23. There is only one Truth and one Gospel.

By the way Colossians 2 is not doing away with God's Sabbath- Isaiah 66:23 tells us that plainly and God said His Sabbath is a perpetual covenant Exodus 31:16. If you read Colossians in context it is about ordinances against us. Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

God's Sabbath is part of God's Ten Commandments. It is a unit and you cannot erase one of God's eternal commandments. Psalms 89:34, Psalms 111:7,8. God's character is reflected in His Ten Commandments so they are certainly not against us. The Ten Commandments is never referred to as "ordinances" and it contains no curses or is contrary to us. This is a clear passage to the law of Moses. There are two Sabbaths in the Bible. One that is eternal and is part of God's commandments- God chosen holy Sabbath day. The other is about food and drink and is an ordinance in the law of Moses. If you read in Colossians it is all about food and drink and is an ordinance and it is referring to the annual feast Sabbath(s) not one of God's commandments that is very important to God when He has said ' But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God' it's God's chosen holy day and not the day that was changed by man and is now a tradition and not a commandment of God that Jesus warns us about.

Mathew 15:3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying: 8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”

Hope this helps.

God bless
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
10,021
4,233
USA
✟470,520.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Well, the first part of the commandment is this

Exodus 12:2 This month shall be to you the beginning of months. It shall be the first month of the year to you.

Do you consider that a civil law, and therefore an eternal commandment?

I would consider an instruction not to eat yeast for 7 days out of a year to be a health guideline, yes. Maybe science will learn that it is healthy to give our bodies a break from yeast once a year.

No, I am not waiting to figure out each and every one of the laws of Moses before deciding if I want to keep God's laws.

I am discussing with you how practical it is to separate the laws given through Moses into eternal laws and temporary laws.

God separated His laws no? He personally handwrote His Ten and spoke them and stored inside in the ark in the Most Holy inside His Temple, which He also has in heaven. Revelation 11:19. The law of Moses is a different covenant.

I feel we are on the merry-go-round and no matter how many times I go through this we always end up in the same place. For now, I think it's best you ask the Holy Spirit to guide you in Truth and maybe you will come up to the same conclusion Paul does: but keeping the commandments of God is what matters. 1 Corinthians 7:19

God bless friend. :)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Studyman

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
2,117
618
65
Michigan
✟318,578.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Do you mean start at the top and work my way through?


If so, do you mean start at the top as in your first post to me? Or do you mean start at the beginning of a particular post?

This post would be fine to start with.


"This is a really important question.

According to your understanding of the Scriptures, who did God have the Law and Prophets written for?"

You also said;

"So I ask myself, would I want my neighbor to return my ox on the Sabbath? Yes, unless that would go against her conscience."

Then I asked, but you didn't answer again, the following question.

"So then, you would want your neighbor to physically follow God's Commandment, which is doing "Good", even on God's Holy Sabbath. Isn't this what Jesus was saying? That it is "lawful" to "physically" obey God's Commandment, even on His Sabbath?"

And I posted the Holy Word's of Jesus Father and my Father.

1 Thou shalt not see thy brother's ox or his sheep go astray, and hide thyself from them: thou shalt in any case bring them again unto thy brother.

2 And if thy brother be not nigh unto thee, or if thou know him not, then thou shalt bring it unto thine own house, and it shall be with thee until thy brother seek after it, and thou shalt restore it to him again.

3 In like manner shalt thou do with his ass; and so shalt thou do with his raiment; and with all lost thing of thy brother's, which he hath lost, and thou hast found, shalt thou do likewise: thou mayest not hide thyself.

4 Thou shalt not see thy brother's ass or his ox fall down by the way, and hide thyself from them: thou shalt surely help him to lift them up again.

So then the physical requirements of the Law regarding how to Love one another, namely, not killing your brother, not hating or being Angry with your brother in your heart, not stealing from your brother, not coveting after your brother's things, not lusting after your brother's wife, not telling tales about your brother, not hiding thyself from thy brother's lost things, not looking on the nakedness of your brother's daughters or wife, and more, are all fulfilled when we obey this commandment from the heart.

Lev. 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

So this is how to obey the 2nd greatest Commandment in the Law, that you said you hoped your neighbor does. In your religious philosophy, how does a man obey the 1st greatest commandment?

There are many other parts of my posts to you that you chose not to address, I will re-post them as well, in hope that this time you might consider addressing them.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
8,127
2,191
54
Northeast
✟177,938.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
God separated His laws no? He personally handwrote His Ten and spoke them and stored inside in the ark in the Most Holy inside His Temple, which He also has in heaven. Revelation 11:19. The law of Moses is a different covenant.

I feel we are on the merry-go-round and no matter how many times I go through this we always end up in the same place. For now, I think it's best you ask the Holy Spirit to guide you in Truth and maybe you will come up to the same conclusion Paul does: but keeping the commandments of God is what matters. 1 Corinthians 7:19

God bless friend. :)
Yes, God separated his Ten commandments from the other laws.

I thought you had said that God had other eternal laws in addition to the ten commandments, and that it was very, very important to do all of God's eternal laws.

Did I understand you correctly?

But if you want to stop, that's okay.
God bless you too, my Sister in Christ!
 
Upvote 0

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
8,127
2,191
54
Northeast
✟177,938.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
This post would be fine to start with.


"This is a really important question.

According to your understanding of the Scriptures, who did God have the Law and Prophets written for?"

You also said;

"So I ask myself, would I want my neighbor to return my ox on the Sabbath? Yes, unless that would go against her conscience."

Then I asked, but you didn't answer again, the following question.

"So then, you would want your neighbor to physically follow God's Commandment, which is doing "Good", even on God's Holy Sabbath. Isn't this what Jesus was saying? That it is "lawful" to "physically" obey God's Commandment, even on His Sabbath?"

And I posted the Holy Word's of Jesus Father and my Father.

1 Thou shalt not see thy brother's ox or his sheep go astray, and hide thyself from them: thou shalt in any case bring them again unto thy brother.

2 And if thy brother be not nigh unto thee, or if thou know him not, then thou shalt bring it unto thine own house, and it shall be with thee until thy brother seek after it, and thou shalt restore it to him again.

3 In like manner shalt thou do with his ass; and so shalt thou do with his raiment; and with all lost thing of thy brother's, which he hath lost, and thou hast found, shalt thou do likewise: thou mayest not hide thyself.

4 Thou shalt not see thy brother's ass or his ox fall down by the way, and hide thyself from them: thou shalt surely help him to lift them up again.

So then the physical requirements of the Law regarding how to Love one another, namely, not killing your brother, not hating or being Angry with your brother in your heart, not stealing from your brother, not coveting after your brother's things, not lusting after your brother's wife, not telling tales about your brother, not hiding thyself from thy brother's lost things, not looking on the nakedness of your brother's daughters or wife, and more, are all fulfilled when we obey this commandment from the heart.

Lev. 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

So this is how to obey the 2nd greatest Commandment in the Law, that you said you hoped your neighbor does. In your religious philosophy, how does a man obey the 1st greatest commandment?

There are many other parts of my posts to you that you chose not to address, I will re-post them as well, in hope that this time you might consider addressing them.

Okay, so starting here
According to your understanding of the Scriptures, who did God have the Law and Prophets written for?"
I think God had the law and the prophets written for all humanity, though of course only part of humanity would be aware of those writings at any particular time.
 
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
10,021
4,233
USA
✟470,520.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Yes, God separated his Ten commandments from the other laws.

I thought you had said that God had other eternal laws in addition to the ten commandments, and that it was very, very important to do all of God's eternal laws.

Did I understand you correctly?

But if you want to stop, that's okay.
God bless you too, my Sister in Christ!
Maybe I misunderstood you. I have a few things going on right now and we have been talking about laws for months. You previously made the statement you thought you knew the bible better than I do, so maybe you can share your perspective which laws you think are eternal and which laws ended at the cross. If you can also provide scriptures. You also previously stated you thought all laws ended at the cross, but I think you said more recently you think at least the Ten are eternal. Maybe you can elaborate on that as well.

Thanks and God bless.
 
Upvote 0

Studyman

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
2,117
618
65
Michigan
✟318,578.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Okay, so starting here

I think God had the law and the prophets written for all humanity, though of course only part of humanity would be aware of those writings at any particular time.

That is a safe answer I suppose. For me, it seems the Scriptures answer this question in more detail, and I think it is an important foundational truth to know and understand.

Peter really explains it nicely.

1 Pet. 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Of course, I should be obvious that Peter is speaking about "New Covenant Believers" here. He is saying that the things which were said and written in the Law and Prophets, regarding the "Salvation of our Souls", were specifically written and said, NOT FOR THE, BUT for us, that is, New Covenant Believers.

So is this just an anomaly, am I understanding Peter wrong here? Are there others who also believe this Gospel Message?

1 Cor. 9:7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?

8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?

9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?

10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

Again, Paul is saying that this LAW of Moses was written for "OUR", that is, New Covenant Believers, Sake's no doubt. Confirming Peter's Gospel Message.

1 Cor. 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

So again, Paul is telling us that the Law and Prophets were written for New Covenant Believers as examples of what not to do.

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Again, the things that happened to those in the Law and Prophets, happened to them "for examples" SPECIFICALLY for the admonition New Covenant Believers.

And Paul is even warning those New Covenant Believers who "Think" they are saved, to take HEED of these Examples God had written, lest we are also "overthrown in the wilderness". This is also part of the Gospel Message Paul brought to the New Covenant Believers.

Rom. 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

I know you are on a phone, so I won't post the many others scriptures which teach this Gospel Message. But just wanted to show that according to the Scriptures, God had the Law and Prophets written for New Covenant Believers.

Once this truth is accepted, and a pillar of the foundation of our faith, the Bible starts to flow together as a river of living water.

Are you and I in agreement on these things?
 
Upvote 0

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
8,127
2,191
54
Northeast
✟177,938.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Maybe I misunderstood you. I have a few things going on right now and we have been talking about laws for months. You previously made the statement you thought you knew the bible better than I do, so maybe you can share your perspective which laws you think are eternal and which laws ended at the cross. If you can also provide scriptures. You also previously stated you thought all laws ended at the cross, but I think you said more recently you think at least the Ten are eternal. Maybe you can elaborate on that as well.

Thanks and God bless.
I don't think there is any reasonable way to separate the law into eternal laws and temporary laws.

That's what I've been trying to show.

I think it's important to agree on this before we move on so that we don't go in circles. And this has huge implications. It sounded like yourself and many other people had spent a long time in groups which were basically saying it was easy to separate the eternal laws from the temporary ones.

I don't want to avoid your questions, I just don't want to go in circles :)
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

pescador

Wise old man
Supporter
Nov 29, 2011
8,530
4,776
✟498,844.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
That is a safe answer I suppose. For me, it seems the Scriptures answer this question in more detail, and I think it is an important foundational truth to know and understand.

Peter really explains it nicely.

1 Pet. 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Of course, I should be obvious that Peter is speaking about "New Covenant Believers" here. He is saying that the things which were said and written in the Law and Prophets, regarding the "Salvation of our Souls", were specifically written and said, NOT FOR THE, BUT for us, that is, New Covenant Believers.

So is this just an anomaly, am I understanding Peter wrong here? Are there others who also believe this Gospel Message?

1 Cor. 9:7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?

8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?

9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?

10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

Again, Paul is saying that this LAW of Moses was written for "OUR", that is, New Covenant Believers, Sake's no doubt. Confirming Peter's Gospel Message.

1 Cor. 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

So again, Paul is telling us that the Law and Prophets were written for New Covenant Believers as examples of what not to do.

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Again, the things that happened to those in the Law and Prophets, happened to them "for examples" SPECIFICALLY for the admonition New Covenant Believers.

And Paul is even warning those New Covenant Believers who "Think" they are saved, to take HEED of these Examples God had written, lest we are also "overthrown in the wilderness". This is also part of the Gospel Message Paul brought to the New Covenant Believers.

Rom. 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

I know you are on a phone, so I won't post the many others scriptures which teach this Gospel Message. But just wanted to show that according to the Scriptures, God had the Law and Prophets written for New Covenant Believers.

Once this truth is accepted, and a pillar of the foundation of our faith, the Bible starts to flow together as a river of living water.

Are you and I in agreement on these things?

So much for God's chosen people, the Jews! The deliverance from Egypt, the time in the wilderness, the giving of the law, the construction of the tabernacle, the conquering of Canaan, the judges, the kings, the exiles, the prophets, etc. -- all a colossal joke (or colossal waste of time). Did God have nothing better to do until the crucifixion?
 
Upvote 0

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
8,127
2,191
54
Northeast
✟177,938.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
That is a safe answer I suppose. For me, it seems the Scriptures answer this question in more detail, and I think it is an important foundational truth to know and understand.

Peter really explains it nicely.

1 Pet. 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Of course, I should be obvious that Peter is speaking about "New Covenant Believers" here. He is saying that the things which were said and written in the Law and Prophets, regarding the "Salvation of our Souls", were specifically written and said, NOT FOR THE, BUT for us, that is, New Covenant Believers.

So is this just an anomaly, am I understanding Peter wrong here? Are there others who also believe this Gospel Message?

1 Cor. 9:7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?

8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?

9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?

10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

Again, Paul is saying that this LAW of Moses was written for "OUR", that is, New Covenant Believers, Sake's no doubt. Confirming Peter's Gospel Message.

1 Cor. 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

So again, Paul is telling us that the Law and Prophets were written for New Covenant Believers as examples of what not to do.

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Again, the things that happened to those in the Law and Prophets, happened to them "for examples" SPECIFICALLY for the admonition New Covenant Believers.

And Paul is even warning those New Covenant Believers who "Think" they are saved, to take HEED of these Examples God had written, lest we are also "overthrown in the wilderness". This is also part of the Gospel Message Paul brought to the New Covenant Believers.

Rom. 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

I know you are on a phone, so I won't post the many others scriptures which teach this Gospel Message. But just wanted to show that according to the Scriptures, God had the Law and Prophets written for New Covenant Believers.

Once this truth is accepted, and a pillar of the foundation of our faith, the Bible starts to flow together as a river of living water.

Are you and I in agreement on these things?
No, I do not fully agree with what you wrote in that post.

So now a logistics question. Shall I continue working through post 1890, or shall I start at the top of this latest post?
 
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
10,021
4,233
USA
✟470,520.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I don't think there is any reasonable way to separate the law into eternal laws and temporary laws.

That's what I've been trying to show.

I think it's important to agree on this before we move on so that we don't go in circles. And this has huge implications. It sounded like yourself and many other people had spent a long time in groups which were basically saying it was easy to separate the eternal laws from the temporary ones.

I don't want to avoid your questions, I just don't want to go in circles :)
So what's your solution then, keep all of them or none of them?

What do you think this verse means? Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
 
  • Winner
Reactions: LoveGodsWord
Upvote 0

Titus Dorn

Active Member
Feb 26, 2021
242
35
47
Freetown
✟21,658.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Not one SDA today observes the Sabbath according to Gods commands. Therefore what anyone claims today to be sabbath keeping is not according to Gods law. It is in fact a misinterpretation of the old testament sabbath.

The Mosical law has been abolished by Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 8:13 In that He says, A new covenant, He has made the first OBSOLETE. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Christians will be lost if we try to bind the old Mosaical law on Gods people today. Observing the law of Moses causes those who have been made free in Christ to be put back under bondage,
Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ HAS MADE US FREE, and do NOT be entangled again with a yoke of BONDAGE.

Galatians 5:2-4 Indeed I Paul say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again TO EVERY MAN who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. YOU HAVE BECOME ESTRANGED FROM CHRIST, YOU WHO ATTEMPT TO BE JUSTIFIED BY LAW; YOU HAVE FALLEN FROM GRACE.

There has been a change in law from the old covenant to the new covenant. We are no longer under the old covenant but the covenant Jesus Christ has established,

Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being CHANGED, OF NECESSITY there is also A CHANGE OF LAW.

Galatians 6:2 Bear one another's burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ.

Epheasians 2:14-16 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of seperation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, THE LAW OF COMMANDMENTS CONTAINED IN ORDINANCES(Law of Moses), so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.


The first day of the week is holy because Jesus rose from the dead on Sunday not saturday.

John 20:1;14 Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene went to the tomb, while it was still dark and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb.

14 Now when she had said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there and did not know that it was Jesus

Holy: dedicated or consecrated to God; sacred.

Christians worship on the first day of the week because Jesus' resurrection was on Sunday. This is a Holy day because we set this day apart for worship to God. Worship of God is a Holy practice.

Acts 20:7 Now on the first day of the week when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight.

This day is set apart by God and is commanded to be kept.

Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another and so much the more as you see the day approaching.

The breaking of bread that is done on the first day of the week, Acts 20:7, is the memorial of Christ's death on the cross.

Acts 2:42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread and in prayers.

Matthew 26:26-28 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed it and broke it and gave it to the disciples and said, Take eat; this is My body. Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink from it all of you. For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

1Corinthians 11:23-30 For I received from the Lord that which I also delieved to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, Take eat, this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me. In the same manner He also took the cup after the supper, saying, This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me. For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lords DEATH till He comes. Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgement to himself, not discerning the Lords body.

1Corinthians 11:34 But if anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, lest you come together for judgement. And the rest I will set in order when I come.

The Lords supper is a communion, communion in Greek is koinonia it means partnership. This communion is with Christ. We are United with Christ in this memorial. We have fellowship with Jesus while partaking of the Lords supper. This is a Holy memorial, observance because in it we have fellowship with Christ. Are united with Christ. Are in communion with Christ. This observance is Holy worship done on the first day of the week, Acts 20:7.

1Corinthians 10:16-18 The cup of blessing which we bless is it not the COMMUNION of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the COMMUNION of the body of Christ? For we though many, are one bread and one body; for we all, partake of that one bread. Observe Israel after the flesh: Are not those who eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?

Christians are commanded to worship on the first day of the week, Hebrews 10:25; Acts 20:7; 1Corinthians16:1-2; 1Corinthians 11:23-30. Nowhere in the new covenant are we commanded to keep the Sabbath and no penalty for not keeping it.

Not properly keeping the Sabbath; working, not preparing the shewbread, not staying at home, not preparing the animal sacrifice, not burning incense, not going to Jerusalem to worship three times a year and not putting to death those who do not observe the Sabbath according to Gods commands. Must be put to death themselves,

Exodus 35:1-3
Then Moses gathered all the congregation of the children of ISRAEL together and said to them, THESE ARE THE WORDS WHICH THE LORD HAS COMMANDED YOU TO DO: Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh day shall be a holy day for you , a Sabbath of rest to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it SHALL BE PUT TO DEATH. You shall kindle no fire throughout your dwellings on the Sabbath day.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: pescador
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
10,021
4,233
USA
✟470,520.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Not one SDA today observes the Sabbath according to Gods commands. Therefore what anyone claims today to be sabbath keeping is not according to Gods law. It is in fact a misinterpretation of the old testament sabbath.

I'm curious how you would know what over 20 million members do on God's Sabbath unless you are God. According to the Bible only God is all knowing.

The Mosical law has been abolished by Jesus Christ.
God's Ten Commandments are a different covenant and they are eternal according to scriptures Psalms 89:34, Psalms 111:7,8

Jesus quoted from God's Ten Commandments directly so this statement is false. Mathew 19:16-19
Jesus came to magnify God's laws Isaiah 42:21 Does magnify mean make greater or smaller? Jesus said He did not come to destroy God's laws and has some warnings for those who teach we should not keep God's commandments. Mathew 5:17-20

You quote a lot from Paul, but nothing you quoted says we are not required to keep God's laws. This is what Paul says on the subject, which you seemed to have missed these scriptures:

Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. Romans 3:31
but keeping the commandments of God is what matters. 1 Corinthians 7:19

Paul does not teach a different gospel in different chapters, nor does he teach a different gospel than Jesus who taught all about the Sabbath throughout the NT.

Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being CHANGED, OF NECESSITY there is also A CHANGE OF LAW. Christians worship on the first day of the week because Jesus' resurrection was on Sunday. This is a Holy day because we set this day apart for worship to God. Worship of God is a Holy practice.

Not according to Jeremiah. What changed was the promises, not the law.
Jeremiah 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

God's laws are now written on our hearts and we fulfill these laws out of love when we obey.


Christians worship on the first day of the week because Jesus' resurrection was on Sunday. This is a Holy day because we set this day apart for worship to God. Worship of God is a Holy practice.

John 20:1;14 Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene went to the tomb, while it was still dark and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb.

There is no scripture in the entire Bible that states Sunday is God's holy day, or God's Sabbath, or a day of worship. There is no text in the bible where Jesus told His disciples who kept God's Sabbath that the Sabbath day would change after His resurrection, not a word after Jesus rose either. Something this important would be discussed in the Bible. Jesus was falsely accused of breaking the Sabbath, so He was indeed keeping it and told us to as well. 1 John 15:10. After the resurrection Mary was still keeping the Sabbath like the commandment states.

Luke 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Jesus warned us about keeping commandments of man and not commandments of God. Mathew 15:3-9 Sunday worship is a commandment of man and not a Commandment of God. The change is well-documented and even predicted in the Bible. Daniel 7:25

God said: Exodus 20:10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. This is God's holy day which He commanded all of us to Remember and keep holy. Exodus 20:8-11

Jesus said: For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.” and Sabbath was made for man Luke 2:27 which means for you and me and it is meant to be a blessing and a delight.

I think it's important to let God decide which day is his holy day and He did. Which is why on the New Earth the first day will not be a day of worship, but the seventh day Sabbath will be forever as God already told us in Exodus 31:16

God bless
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.