The physical descendants of the ancient nation of Israel.

keras · Jun 12, 2021

Clare73 said:
The promises of return to the land have been fulfilled.

No they have not.
His faithful people are Promised peace and prosperity and God's protection, when they occupy all of the holy Land. Joel 2:21-23, Isaiah 66:12-14, Amos 9:13-15, Psalms 126:1-5, Proverbs 10:24-25, +

Clare73 · Jun 12, 2021

keras said:
No they have not.
His faithful people are Promised peace and prosperity and God's protection, when they occupy all of the holy Land. Joel 2:21-23, Isaiah 66:12-14, Amos 9:13-15, Psalms 126:1-5, Proverbs 10:24-25, +

Which they did under King Solomon when they possessed all of the land (1 Kings 4:21,
1 Kings 4:24-25; cf 2 Samuel 8:3) promised to Abraham, Moses and Joshua (Genesis 15:18-21; Exodus 23:31; Deuteronomy 1:7, Deuteronomy 11:24; Joshua 1:4).
.

Douggg · Jun 12, 2021

keras said:
Verses 23 and 24 refer to the ancient House of Israel.

Did 6 million Jews not perish in the Holocaust during WWII under the Nazi's? Is that not recent times?

Douggg · Jun 12, 2021

Clare73 said:
Not to mention the promises of return to the land were fulfilled in the return from exile in the 6th century, BC, where the Temple was rebuilt, the walls were rebuilt and rededicated, the people confessed their sins and rededicated themselves to God with great sacrifices and such joy and celebration that it could be heard afar off (Nehemiah 12:43).
And idolatry was never again found in Israel.

The promises of return to the land have been fulfilled.

Has to be twice, because in Luke 21 the Jews were to be lead away captive into the nations after Jerusalem was destroyed.

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Biblewriter · Jun 12, 2021

jgr said:
Let me help.

They say that Abraham's seed is Christ, and those who are in Christ.
They say that in Christ, there is no Jew.

Does that comport with the explicitly stated promises?

Actually, even if you were correct about these statements transferring the promises made to Israel to "the church," (which is not the case) these statements would still have no effect on the explicitly stated promises made to both of the ancient sub-nations of "Ephraim" and "Judah" in Isaiah 11:11-15, Ezekiel 37:15-28 and Zechariah 9:12-17, to the ancient sub-nation of "Judah" in Jeremiah 31:31 and 33:14, Jeremiah 32:6-44, Joel 3:1, Zechariah 12:2-7, and Zechariah 14:14-21, to each of the twelve tribes of Israel by name in Ezekiel 48:1-8 and 23-19, to the descendants of Phinehas in Numbers 25:10-13, to the descendants of Zadok in Ezekiel 44:15-16, to the descendants of the ancient Levites in Jeremiah 33:18 and Ezekiel 44:10-16, to the land of Benjamin in Jeremiah 32:44, to the "mountains of Israel," along with "the hills, the rivers, the valleys, the desolate wastes, and the cities that have been forsaken, which became plunder and mockery to the rest of the nations all around"l in Ezekiel 36:1-10, to "the places around Jerusalem, in the cities of Judah, in the cities of the mountains, in the cities of the lowland, and in the cities of the South" in Jeremiah 32:44, to the plot of real estate defined by specifying its borders in Ezekiel 47:13-20, to "Zion" in Zechariah 9:13, Joel 3:16-17 and Micah 4:2-13, and to the city of Jerusalem in Jeremiah 32:32-44 and 33:16, Joel 3:1-21 and Micah 4:2-8, And Zechariah 14:2-21 and 12:1-9.

Clare73 · Jun 12, 2021

Douggg said:
Has to be twice, because in Luke 21 the Jews were to be lead away captive into the nations after Jerusalem was destroyed.

That would be "nations" plural, not as when they were conquered by one nation, the Chaldeans, where they were able to remain together and to return to Israel under Ezra and Nehemiah in fulfillment of the promise to return to the land.

Luke 21 is led away to "the nations," which they have been, making it impossible to keep up with everyone or to all group together for anything.
Likewise, promise of return to the land has been fulfilled.
There is other promise, nor is there any warrant for it being fulfilled twice.
That is not Biblically warranted.

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

keras · Jun 12, 2021

Clare73 said:
Which they did under King Solomon when they possessed all of the land

Is Judges not in your Bible? Read Judges 1:19, 21,27,29-35 and see that the ancient Israelites failed to conquer and remove the enemies from the Land.
But what will soon happen; on the Lords terrible day of fiery wrath, is the entire Middle East region will be cleared and cleansed. Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Zephaniah 1:1-18, Ezekiel 30:1-5, +

Then; only His faithful peoples will migrate to and live there. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35 All those who stood strong in their faith and called upon His Name. Joel 2:32, Romans 10:13, Acts 2:21

Douggg said:
Did 6 million Jews not perish in the Holocaust during WWII under the Nazi's? Is that not recent times?

The reference was to all of Israel; the 12 tribes.
The Holocaust was just another persecution of the Jews, albeit the worst, that has gone on thru the age, caused by their cursing of themselves. Matthew 27:25

jgr · Jun 12, 2021

Biblewriter said:
Actually, even if you were correct about these statements transferring the promises made to Israel to "the church," (which is not the case) these statements would still have no effect on the explicitly stated promises made to both of the ancient sub-nations of "Ephraim" and "Judah" in Isaiah 11:11-15, Ezekiel 37:15-28 and Zechariah 9:12-17, to the ancient sub-nation of "Judah" in Jeremiah 31:31 and 33:14, Jeremiah 32:6-44, Joel 3:1, Zechariah 12:2-7, and Zechariah 14:14-21, to each of the twelve tribes of Israel by name in Ezekiel 48:1-8 and 23-19, to the descendants of Phinehas in Numbers 25:10-13, to the descendants of Zadok in Ezekiel 44:15-16, to the descendants of the ancient Levites in Jeremiah 33:18 and Ezekiel 44:10-16, to the land of Benjamin in Jeremiah 32:44, to the "mountains of Israel," along with "the hills, the rivers, the valleys, the desolate wastes, and the cities that have been forsaken, which became plunder and mockery to the rest of the nations all around"l in Ezekiel 36:1-10, to "the places around Jerusalem, in the cities of Judah, in the cities of the mountains, in the cities of the lowland, and in the cities of the South" in Jeremiah 32:44, to the plot of real estate defined by specifying its borders in Ezekiel 47:13-20, to "Zion" in Zechariah 9:13, Joel 3:16-17 and Micah 4:2-13, and to the city of Jerusalem in Jeremiah 32:32-44 and 33:16, Joel 3:1-21 and Micah 4:2-8, And Zechariah 14:2-21 and 12:1-9.

In God's New Will and Testament, all covenants and promises are fulfilled only in Christ and those who are in Christ.

The OT covenants and promises are the promissory clauses of God's Old Will and Testament, and they are both revoked and fulfilled in the promissory clauses of His New Will and Testament, written in the Blood of His Son Jesus Christ, the Divine Testator, coming into full force and effect upon His death.

If you have made your own Will and Testament, you will see that the very first clause states the following or its equivalent:

"I HEREBY REVOKE all former Wills and other testamentary dispositions by me at any time therefore made and declare this to be my Last Will and Testament."

This means that all former wills and testaments, and all of their promissory clauses in their entirety, are completely null and void. In their place, the promissory clauses of the current last new will and testament are the only ones in force and effect. Any promissory clause which appeared in the old will and testament, but does not appear in the new will and testament, is irrevocably null and void unless yet another new will and testament is made which re-includes it.

Thus we see:

Hebrews 9
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Hebrews 10
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Hebrews 8
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

God`s New Will and Testament is everlasting:

Hebrews 13
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant.

There is none greater.

We see other new promissory clauses of the New Will and Testament in:

Matthew 21:33-45
In this parable, the son, who is identified as the heir, typifies Christ.

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Hebrews 1:1,2
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

In them, we see that the Heir and Beneficiary is Christ alone, that all of the promises are affirmed and confirmed in Him, and that He is Heir of all things. All includes the OT land promises, the restoration promises, the blessings promises, and all else. There are no exceptions.

If you deny that God has appointed His Son heir of all things, you declare God to be a liar.

His New Will and Testament contains even better promises:

Hebrews 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Such as:

Hebrews 11
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Additional promissory clauses in...:

Romans 8:16-17
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

...make us who are in Christ joint heirs with Him.

But notice:
There are no promissory clauses for anyone, Jew or Gentile, who is not in Christ.

Biblewriter · Jun 12, 2021

Clare73 said:
Not to mention the promises of return to the land were fulfilled in the return from exile in the 6th century, BC, where the Temple was rebuilt, the walls were rebuilt and rededicated, the people confessed their sins and rededicated themselves to God with great sacrifices and such joy and celebration that it could be heard afar off (Nehemiah 12:43).
And idolatry was never again found in Israel.

The promises of return to the land have been fulfilled.

Actually, there is no rational way to even pretend that "all the house of Israel, all of it," has EVER again inhabited "the mountains of Israel, Along with "the hills, the rivers, the valleys, the desolate wastes, and the cities that have been forsaken, which became plunder and mockery to the rest of the nations all around, as is explicitly promised in Ezekiel 36:1-10. Nor is there a rational way to even pretend that Israel has ever had the boundries so specifically defined in Ezekiel 47:13-20. Nor is there any rational way to even pretend that this PLOT OF REAL ESTATE was ever divided among the twelve tribes of Israel in the way specified in Ezekiel 48.

keras · Jun 12, 2021

Biblewriter said:
Actually, even if you were correct about these statements transferring the promises made to Israel to "the church," (which is not the case) these statements would still have no effect on the explicitly stated promises made to both of the ancient sub-nations of "Ephraim" and "Judah"

Gods Promises are always for those who believe in Him and keep His Commandments.
An 'explicit' statement is Romans 9:6-8...not all of Israel are truly Israel....
So now it is the Christian peoples who are the true Israelites of God and WE inherit the Promises of the holy Land tenure.
Gods secret, soon to be revealed, is how the real descendants of Jacob have been nurtured and protected in countries around the world. He sent Jesus to save them, so it cannot be otherwise than the Christians are Israelites by faith and mostly by descent.

Biblewriter · Jun 12, 2021

jgr said:
In God's New Will and Testament, all covenants and promises are fulfilled only in Christ and those who are in Christ.

The OT covenants and promises are the promissory clauses of God's Old Will and Testament, and they are both revoked and fulfilled in the promissory clauses of His New Will and Testament, written in the Blood of His Son Jesus Christ, the Divine Testator, coming into full force and effect upon His death.

If you have made your own Will and Testament, you will see that the very first clause states the following or its equivalent:

"I HEREBY REVOKE all former Wills and other testamentary dispositions by me at any time therefore made and declare this to be my Last Will and Testament."

This means that all former wills and testaments, and all of their promissory clauses in their entirety, are completely null and void. In their place, the promissory clauses of the current last new will and testament are the only ones in force and effect. Any promissory clause which appeared in the old will and testament, but does not appear in the new will and testament, is irrevocably null and void unless yet another new will and testament is made which re-includes it.

Thus we see:

Hebrews 9
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Hebrews 10
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Hebrews 8
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

God`s New Will and Testament is everlasting:

Hebrews 13
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant.

There is none greater.

We see other new promissory clauses of the New Will and Testament in:

Matthew 21:33-45
In this parable, the son, who is identified as the heir, typifies Christ.

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Hebrews 1:1,2
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

In them, we see that the Heir and Beneficiary is Christ alone, that all of the promises are affirmed and confirmed in Him, and that He is Heir of all things. All includes the OT land promises, the restoration promises, the blessings promises, and all else. There are no exceptions.

If you deny that God has appointed His Son heir of all things, you declare God to be a liar.

His New Will and Testament contains even better promises:

Hebrews 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Such as:

Hebrews 11
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Additional promissory clauses in...:

Romans 8:16-17
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

...make us who are in Christ joint heirs with Him.

But notice:
There are no promissory clauses for anyone, Jew or Gentile, who is not in Christ.

Actually, even if you were correct about God having transferred the promises made to Israel to "the church," (which is not the case) this would still have no effect on the explicitly stated promises made to both of the ancient sub-nations of "Ephraim" and "Judah" in Isaiah 11:11-15, Ezekiel 37:15-28 and Zechariah 9:12-17, to the ancient sub-nation of "Judah" in Jeremiah 31:31 and 33:14, Jeremiah 32:6-44, Joel 3:1, Zechariah 12:2-7, and Zechariah 14:14-21, to each of the twelve tribes of Israel by name in Ezekiel 48:1-8 and 23-19, to the descendants of Phinehas in Numbers 25:10-13, to the descendants of Zadok in Ezekiel 44:15-16, to the descendants of the ancient Levites in Jeremiah 33:18 and Ezekiel 44:10-16, to the land of Benjamin in Jeremiah 32:44, to the "mountains of Israel," along with "the hills, the rivers, the valleys, the desolate wastes, and the cities that have been forsaken, which became plunder and mockery to the rest of the nations all around" in Ezekiel 36:1-10, to "the places around Jerusalem, in the cities of Judah, in the cities of the mountains, in the cities of the lowland, and in the cities of the South" in Jeremiah 32:44, to the plot of real estate defined by specifying its borders in Ezekiel 47:13-20, to "Zion" in Zechariah 9:13, Joel 3:16-17 and Micah 4:2-13, and to the city of Jerusalem in Jeremiah 32:32-44 and 33:16, Joel 3:1-21, Micah 4:2-8, and Zechariah 14:2-21 and 12:1-9.

Douggg · Jun 12, 2021

Clare73 said:
Luke 21 is led away to "the nations," which they have been, making it impossible to keep up with everyone or to all group together for anything.
Likewise, promise of return to the land has been fulfilled.
There is other promise, nor is there any warrant for it being fulfilled twice.
That is not Biblically warranted.

Hitler didn't seem to have any difficulty determining who was a Jew or not. Following WWII, the Jews from mostly Europe returned to the land of Israel.

Douggg · Jun 12, 2021

keras said:
The reference was to all of Israel; the 12 tribes.
The Holocaust was just another persecution of the Jews, albeit the worst, that has gone on thru the age, caused by their cursing of themselves. Matthew 27:25

Jew is both a generic name in one sense, and in a different sense, them of the tribe of Judah. Jews, generically speaking, the Jews determine a person's individual tribal affiliation according to their father's name.

Hitler was able to determine who was a Jew by the Jews' themselves profession of identity, and the cultural customs they have carried forward down through the centuries, speaking Hebrew and Yiddish, plus physical characteristics.

jgr · Jun 12, 2021

Biblewriter said:
Actually, even if you were correct about God having transferred the promises made to Israel to "the church," (which is not the case) these statements would still have no effect on the explicitly stated promises made to both of the ancient sub-nations of "Ephraim" and "Judah" in Isaiah 11:11-15, Ezekiel 37:15-28 and Zechariah 9:12-17, to the ancient sub-nation of "Judah" in Jeremiah 31:31 and 33:14, Jeremiah 32:6-44, Joel 3:1, Zechariah 12:2-7, and Zechariah 14:14-21, to each of the twelve tribes of Israel by name in Ezekiel 48:1-8 and 23-19, to the descendants of Phinehas in Numbers 25:10-13, to the descendants of Zadok in Ezekiel 44:15-16, to the descendants of the ancient Levites in Jeremiah 33:18 and Ezekiel 44:10-16, to the land of Benjamin in Jeremiah 32:44, to the "mountains of Israel," along with "the hills, the rivers, the valleys, the desolate wastes, and the cities that have been forsaken, which became plunder and mockery to the rest of the nations all around"l in Ezekiel 36:1-10, to "the places around Jerusalem, in the cities of Judah, in the cities of the mountains, in the cities of the lowland, and in the cities of the South" in Jeremiah 32:44, to the plot of real estate defined by specifying its borders in Ezekiel 47:13-20, to "Zion" in Zechariah 9:13, Joel 3:16-17 and Micah 4:2-13, and to the city of Jerusalem in Jeremiah 32:32-44 and 33:16, Joel 3:1-21 and Micah 4:2-8, And Zechariah 14:2-21 and 12:1-9.

All transcended in the New Covenant in Christ, and in those who are in Christ.

Biblewriter · Jun 12, 2021

jgr said:
All transcended in the New Covenant in Christ, and in those who are in Christ.

Sorry, I have more confidence in God than in you.

jgr · Jun 12, 2021

Biblewriter said:
Sorry, I have more confidence in God than in you.

God has more confidence in His Son than in you.

Biblewriter · Jun 12, 2021

keras said:
Gods Promises are always for those who believe in Him and keep His Commandments.
An 'explicit' statement is Romans 9:6-8...not all of Israel are truly Israel....
So now it is the Christian peoples who are the true Israelites of God and WE inherit the Promises of the holy Land tenure.
Gods secret, soon to be revealed, is how the real descendants of Jacob have been nurtured and protected in countries around the world. He sent Jesus to save them, so it cannot be otherwise than the Christians are Israelites by faith and mostly by descent.

Romans 9:6-8 does not even suggest the notion that the true Israel is a different group than the natural Israel. Rather, it is saying that the true Israel is a sub-set of the natural Israel. That is, that only SOME of the natural Israel is the true Israel. There is not even one passage in the entire Bible that says that being a Christian makes a person an Israelite. That is 100% pure interpretation. And that INTERPRETATION makes God out to be a liar. For He made these promises to specific people groups. So giving these blesings to a different group would be reniging on His promises.

Biblewriter · Jun 12, 2021

jgr said:
God has more confidence in His Son than in you.

Thank God for that.

Clare73 · Jun 12, 2021

keras said:
No they have not.
His faithful people are Promised peace and prosperity and God's protection, when they occupy all of the holy Land. Joel 2:21-23, Isaiah 66:12-14, Amos 9:13-15, Psalms 126:1-5, Proverbs 10:24-25, +

keras said:
Is Judges not in your Bible?

1 Kings 4:21, 1 Kings 4:24-25 (+ 2 Samuel 8:3) are in my Bible where full possession of all the land promised to Abraham did not occur until Solomon, who ruled for 40 years over all the land promised to Abraham at the height of the kingdom, before God divided the kingdom (1 Kings 11:31-39).
Those promises have been fulfilled.

For correct understanding of the land promise, see Hebrews 11:13-16.

Read Judges 1:19, 21,27,29-35 and see that the ancient Israelites failed to conquer and remove the enemies from the Land.
But what will soon happen; on the Lords terrible day of fiery wrath, is the entire Middle East region will be cleared and cleansed. Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Zephaniah 1:1-18, Ezekiel 30:1-5, +

Then; only His faithful peoples will migrate to and live there. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35 All those who stood strong in their faith and called upon His Name. Joel 2:32, Romans 10:13, Acts 2:21

The reference was to all of Israel; the 12 tribes.
The Holocaust was just another persecution of the Jews, albeit the worst, that has gone on thru the age, caused by their cursing of themselves. Matthew 27:25

Clare73 · Jun 12, 2021

Douggg said:
Hitler didn't seem to have any difficulty determining who was a Jew or not. Following WWII, the Jews from mostly Europe returned to the land of Israel.

They didn't find each other, Hitler found them.

Have all returned to Israel?

The physical descendants of the ancient nation of Israel.

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Blood-bought

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Well-Known Member

Senior Member

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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Blood-bought

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