The Error of Lordship Salvation?

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Clare73

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Clare73 said:
THis is what I think "obedience" means:

". . .be holy in all you do; for it is written: 'Be holy, because I am holy--Leviticus 11:44-45.' "
(1 Peter 1:15-16)
". . .called to be holy" (1 Corinthians 1:2)

. . .slaves to sin which leads to death. . .slaves to obedience which leads to righteousness."
(Romans 6:16)

"Just as you used to offer parts of your body in slavery to impurity, so now
offer your body in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness." (Romans 6:19)

Now that you have. . .become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness. (Romans 6:22)

". . .let us purify ourselves from everthing that contaminates body and spirit,
perfecting (completing) holiness out of reverence for God. (2 Corinthians 7:1)

"Live as children of light (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth)"
(Ephesians 5:9)

". . .pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness." (1 Timothy 6:11)

". . .pursue righteusness, faith, love and peace. . ." (2 Timothy 2:22)

". . .all Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for. . .training in righteousness." (2 Timothy 3:16)

"God disciplines us for our good that we may share in his holiness. . . discipline produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it." (Hebrews 12:10-11)

"die to sin and live for righteousness" (1 Peter 2:24)

"everyone who does what is right has been born of him." (1 John 2:29)

"he who does what is right is righteous. . .he does what is sinful is of the devil," (1 John 3:7)

"Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means!" (Romans 6:1)

"Do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desire." (Romans 6:12)

"Do not offer the parts of your body to sin. . .Offer them to God as instruments of righteousness." (Romans 6:13)

"Without holiness, no one will see the Lord." (Hebrews 12:14)
Titus 3:5:
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Romans 10:3-4:
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Romans 4:3-6:
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Acts 16:30-33:
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
Ephesians 2:8-9:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
1 Peter 3:21:
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Romans 3:21-26:
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
John 6:39-40:
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 11:25:
“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:”
John 4:10-14:
10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?
13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
Matthew 26:26:
“And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.”
John 6:51:
“I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Acts 2:38 - Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
1 Corinthian 12:13 - For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Galatians 3:27 - For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Ephesians 1:13:
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Mark 16:16:
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Galatians 5:4:
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Galatians 3:24:
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Romans 7:22-23:
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
All in complete agreement with my post quoted above.
 
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Clare73

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No, lordship salvation means you follow works of the law to be save. If you follow this type of doctrine you have fallen from grace.
You either don't understand, or deliberately misrepresent, Lordship savlation.
 
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GraceInChrist

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All in complete agreement with my post quoted above.
No, not at all. You are preaching a gospel of law and flesh. Instead of one in which we are saved in baptism, and seal in the Holy Ghost. If you need to work, then it is no longer grace. For some reason you are not getting this.
 
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Clare73

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The Scriptures you present are all in complete agreement with my post quoted above
(in post #121).
No, not at all.
Please Biblically demonstrate how the Scriptures you presented are in disagreement
with the Scriptures I presented.
 
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GraceInChrist

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You either don't understand, or deliberately misrepresent, Lordship savlation.
You are just trying to make it sound the same as baptismal regeneration, which are not the same. One is trying to be justified by the flesh and works, the other is a work of the holy ghost in the believer.
 
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GraceInChrist

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Please Bibilially demonstrate how the Scriptures you quotred are in disagreement with the Scriptures I quoted.
Romans 3:21-28, Romans 4:3-6, Ephesians 1:13, Philippians 1:6.

It disgrees in the context you are using them
 
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Clare73

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Clare73 said:
Please Biblically demonstrate how the Scriptures you presented are in disagreement
with the Scriptures I presented.
You are just trying to make it sound the same as baptismal regeneration, which are not the same. One is trying to be justified by the flesh and works, the other is a work of the holy ghost in the believer.
Non-responsive.
 
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Clare73

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Romans 3:21-28, Romans 4:3-6, Ephesians 1:13, Philippians 1:6.

It disgrees in the context you are using them
Rather, the Scriptures I presented disagree in the context you are using.
They are the context I am using.

That is not a Biblical demonstration.

Non-reponsive.
 
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GraceInChrist

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Rather, the Scriptures I presented disagree in the context you are using.
They are the context I am using.

That is not a Biblical demonstration.

Non-reponsive.

In the context you are using them it goes against many other scriptures. Either Paul made an oppsie or they dont mean what you force them to mean.
 
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GraceInChrist

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Rather, the Scriptures I presented disagree in the context you are using.
They are the context I am using.

That is not a Biblical demonstration.

Non-reponsive.
How did you get save, by the hearing of gospel that comes from faith. Or by your works through faith.
 
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Oompa Loompa

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you put to death your flesh, not by the works of the law. But through baptism in his finish work. It is a gift so no man should boast.
I presume you come from a faith tradition that regards the physical act of water baptism a sacrament and not an ordinance?
 
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GraceInChrist

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I presume you come from a faith tradition that regards the physical act of water baptism a sacrament and not an ordinance?
Baptism was always a sacrament. It is a gift of God in which we are save, and participate in his finish work of the cross. It is written multiple times throught the bible.
Our works do not impute the righteouness of our lord Jesus Christ.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Heresy is not a term that I use very often, but Lordship salvation is so contrary to the Reformation doctrine of grace alone through faith alone that I cannot help but condemn it. Lordship salvation teaches that one cannot receive Jesus as Savior without submitting to Him as Lord.

This is a destructive heresy, because it confuses justification with sanctification. By faith alone, our sins are forgiven, due to the price Jesus already paid on the cross. Once saved, we are called to a life of good works, in gratitude for our salvation, rather than in fear of not earning it.

Lordship salvation teachers are like modern-day Pharisees:



I am not saying that believers in Lordship salvation are unsaved, because only Jesus can judge their hearts. Their teaching, however, is destructive, because it turns people away who would otherwise be saved. When Jesus forgave the thief on the cross, his belief was enough.

This is Jesus' warning for Lordship salvation teachers today:



Please note that they call Jesus "Lord," and attempt to justify themselves by their works, and Jesus' answer is "I never knew you. Depart from me."
What is the work of God that profits unto salvation?



Good works should be the fruit, rather than the condition, of our salvation:



The free grace of the Gospel goes against human reasoning. How could faith, apart from works, save us? It seems too simple, too good to be true. Paul had something to say about this:



It might seem foolish that looking at a brass snake alone saved the Israelites from dying of snake venom, but that's the provision God provided:



Searching difficult Biblical passages on https://faithalone.org can be very helpful. Pretty much every passage used to justify good works as a condition of salvation really has to do with forfeiting eternal rewards. There is a difference.

What is the purpose of there being rewards in heaven? | GotQuestions.org

While we enter heaven as a free gift through faith, our level of reward is based on our level of discipleship. We should take the promise of rewards seriously, but it's not the same as salvation.

Honestly this controversy has much to do about nothing. Just another modern age stumbling block in which to avoid. If one can not define who Jesus Christ of Nazareth is, Lord and Savior, then so be it. Blessings.
 
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Clare73

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In the context you are using them it goes against many other scriptures. Either Paul made an oppsie or they dont mean what you force them to mean.
If you deny the plain meaning of those 12 Scriptures, then it falls to you to demonstrate they "go against many other Scriptures" in the light of all Scripture. . .one good way to do this would be to demonstrate what you say they actually mean rather than what I am "forcing" them to mean, when all I did was present them as they are written--no commentary involved.

What you are actually demonstrating here is that their own plain wording is so evidently contradictory to your theology that it must be becasue I am "forcing" them to mean what they plainly state.

That's just goofy. . .
 
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Clare73

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Honestly this controversy has much to do about nothing. Just another modern age stumbling block in which to avoid. If one can not define who Jesus Christ of Nazareth is, Lord and Savior, then so be it. Blessings.
Maybe not. . .is holiness nothing?
 
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d taylor

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No fruit no salvation is untrue.

You have three examples in The Bible, in the parable of the soils ( i place in bold) in Luke, Matthew and Mark.

All three of the soils in bold sprang up in contrast to the first soil which was trampled down and birds of the air devoured it (the only unbelieving soil in the parable) .

2nd soil Some fell on rock; and as soon as it sprang up, it withered away because it lacked moisture.

3rd soil And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up with it and choked it.

4th soil But others fell on good ground, sprang up, and yielded a crop a hundredfold.” When He had said these things He cried, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”

All of the three soils that sprang up believed and received God's free gift of Eternal Life. But only one of these three soils produced fruit.


“Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience

When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it,then the wicked one
comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”

The sower sows the word. And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts. These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness; and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they stumble. Now these are the ones sown among thorns; they are the ones who hear the word, and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. But these are the ones sown on good ground, those who hear the word, accept it, and bear fruit: some thirty fold, some sixty, and some a hundred.”
 
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Oompa Loompa

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Baptism was always a sacrament. It is a gift of God in which we are save, and participate in his finish work of the cross. It is written multiple times throught the bible.
Our works do not impute the righteouness of our lord Jesus Christ.
Is the physical act of water baptism required for salvation? What if someone says they are saved but deliberately choose not to be baptized?

Edit: I will just cut to the chase. You mentioned that baptism is not a work but a "gift". Regardless, if water baptism is a sacrament necessary for salvation, the act of receiving the gift by being water baptized is in itself a "work". Therefore, you believe if works based salvation if you presume accepting the gift of baptism through immersion is a requirement for salvation. I do not now, or have ever, suggested that our works are necessary for salvation. But it isn't true that we are not saved by works. We are! But the work is done entirely by that of the Holy Spirit and they physical act of water baptism is merely an ordinance that is symbolic of the spiritual "fire baptism" after one is justified.
 
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Humble_Disciple

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Honestly this controversy has much to do about nothing. Just another modern age stumbling block in which to avoid. If one can not define who Jesus Christ of Nazareth is, Lord and Savior, then so be it. Blessings.

The only reason why I am saying anything about it is because I want as many people as possible to be saved, and I want those who are already Christian to know they are saved.
 
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Oompa Loompa

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Colossians 2, clearly debunks your notion. It is not in our works we put to the death the flesh.

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
What exactly is my "notion" that you are suggesting?
 
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