KCfromNC

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Speech can be expressed as pictures, symbols, or art forms. A wedding cake can say "these two people are being joined together in marital bliss" without the words actually being printed on the cake. And the baker didn't want to say that in the case of a homosexual couple.
The problem is if a gay customer asked the baker to make a cake identical to one previously used by a straight couple, the message obviously isn't coming from the cake but the orientation of the customer. And if that customer's orientation is the reason for discriminating against them, it would create issues for the business in a number of jurisdictions.
 
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Yttrium

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The problem is if a gay customer asked the baker to make a cake identical to one previously used by a straight couple, the message obviously isn't coming from the cake but the orientation of the customer. And if that customer's orientation is the reason for discriminating against them, it would create issues for the business in a number of jurisdictions.

This is very true.
 
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Aldebaran

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The problem is if a gay customer asked the baker to make a cake identical to one previously used by a straight couple, the message obviously isn't coming from the cake but the orientation of the customer. And if that customer's orientation is the reason for discriminating against them, it would create issues for the business in a number of jurisdictions.

In what universe is it customary for a customer to disclose his sexual orientation to a baker when ordering a cake?
 
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Pommer

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In what universe is it customary for a customer to disclose his sexual orientation to a baker when ordering a cake?
Apparently when you’ve already decided that you’ll do no weddings where two men or two women are the couple.
 
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Aldebaran

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A cake as speech is just the result of watching too many seasons of Great British Baking Show, where every "showstopper" is basically a memoir.

Is decorating a cake considered an art? Is art considered speech, such as BLM grafitti?
 
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Aldebaran

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Apparently when you’ve already decided that you’ll do no weddings where two men or two women are the couple.

Is that what the customer decided? That's who I asked about.
 
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hedrick

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Is decorating a cake considered an art? Is art considered speech, such as BLM grafitti?
We don’t know . The Supreme Court avoided deciding the case on its merits. It’s possible that the decision might go either way.
 
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KCfromNC

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In what universe is it customary for a customer to disclose his sexual orientation to a baker when ordering a cake?
One in which the customer gives even the most cursory information about their spouse-to-be. Or if they go shopping for the cake together.

These sorts of questions are supposed to be phrased such that it implies it the fault of the gay customer for not hiding who they are, but as written it even fails at that because straight couples are going to "disclose" it most of the time by using a simple pronoun to refer to their spouse.
 
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KCfromNC

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Is decorating a cake considered an art? Is art considered speech, such as BLM grafitti?
It isn't so much if it is considered speech, but if the mere existence of a cake screams "I, the person who baked this, clearly support gay marriage". Most times the cake is pretty neutral on that subject.

Should we repeat the experiment from previous threads where we post pictures of cakes with zero extra context and no one can tell which ones are "gay" cakes?
 
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Quartermaine

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It isn't so much if it is considered speech, but if the mere existence of a cake screams "I, the person who baked this, clearly support gay marriage". Most times the cake is pretty neutral on that subject.

Should we repeat the experiment from previous threads where we post pictures of cakes with zero extra context and no one can tell which ones are "gay" cakes?
A good point. If the message can't be discerned is there a message at all?
 
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RestoreTheJoy

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This would be more convincing if you provided any sort of reason to believe it.



The customer didn't want him to do any event, so this diversion is irrelevant.



In what way?
Asked and answered. You haven't read my answers.
 
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hedrick

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'S'what I've been sayin'. The only speech here is "Look! A cake!" (Though I will concede that the posts that followed mine said it better.)
The argument is that making a wedding act is a creative effort, that is based on an understanding of the couple. It’s not the same as selling them a stock item. A court would have to review whether that argument makes sense. I don’t think it does, but I could imagine a court accepting it. I don’t think arguments among us are likely to very useful.
 
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Is decorating a cake considered an art? Is art considered speech, such as BLM grafitti?
Re cakes I think it goes either way.
There's mundane cake decorating which is considered something like wallpaper hanging.
Then there's what people think of as genuinely expressive cake-art.

I would agree, though exactly where the line gets drawn is probably quite subjective, and I couldnt tell you where legal opinions come down on cake-art, or even of there are any.

Art is generally considered speech for first amdmt purposes.
 
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The argument is that making a wedding act is a creative effort, that is based on an understanding of the couple. It’s not the same as selling them a stock item. A court would have to review whether that argument makes sense. I don’t think it does, but I could imagine a court accepting it. I don’t think arguments among us are likely to very useful.
I think we are mostly in agreement. I agree also that whatever we might agree on here is very unlikely to affect any arguments any lawyer might use.

But, I do think that arguments can help any interested in doing so to solidify one's own thoughts on the topic.
 
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Aldebaran

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Why ask? Unless of course you planned to discriminate.

I asked because Pommer replied as if I was referring to the baker rather than the customer.
 
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Aldebaran

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One in which the customer gives even the most cursory information about their spouse-to-be. Or if they go shopping for the cake together.

These sorts of questions are supposed to be phrased such that it implies it the fault of the gay customer for not hiding who they are, but as written it even fails at that because straight couples are going to "disclose" it most of the time by using a simple pronoun to refer to their spouse.

No "hiding" necessary. Just go in and order a cake. Blurting out that they're a homosexual isn't part of the ordering process for a cake any more than it is when I check out my items with a cashier at the grocery store.
 
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Aldebaran

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It isn't so much if it is considered speech, but if the mere existence of a cake screams "I, the person who baked this, clearly support gay marriage". Most times the cake is pretty neutral on that subject.

Should we repeat the experiment from previous threads where we post pictures of cakes with zero extra context and no one can tell which ones are "gay" cakes?

If the cake is really decorated in such a "neutral" way, then the customer ordering it can be just as neutral about their sexual preferences.
 
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