The Error of Lordship Salvation?

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Humble_Disciple

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Lordship salvation requires the denial of the flesh and to walk in the Spirit. Establishing Jesus as Lord in your life is a prerequisite to following Christ. You know...the "deny yourself and take up your cross" thing?

You are confusing faith with discipleship, justification with sanctification.

When I was in an extreme Lordship Salvation boy’s club, I viewed these verses as meaning that in order to get into heaven I had to 1) deny myself, take up my cross, and follow Christ, and 2) I had to continue doing that perfectly until I died....

The issue here is coming after Jesus, discipleship, not coming to Jesus, new birth (e.g., John 6:35).

The condition is works, not faith.

While the consequence is indeed saving one’s life (Matt 16:25-26), that refers primarily to eternal rewards in the life to come as Matt 16:27 makes clear: “He will reward each according to his works.”
Salvation by Self Denial? – Grace Evangelical Society

While we are saved by grace alone through faith alone, our level of reward will be according to our works.
 
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Humble_Disciple

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But the scripture suggests that those who walk in the flesh were never truly saved to begin with.

No, that might be what Lordship salvation teaches, but that's not what the Bible teaches.

1 Corinthians 3
3 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Please not that Paul calls the Corinthians "carnal," and yet he also calls them "brethren," meaning they are saved in Christ.

What is a better motivator for living a holy life, gratitude for the free gift of salvation or fear of eternal punishment?

Even if he [the Christian] wants to, he cannot lose his salvation, however much he sin, unless he will not believe. For no sin can condemn him save unbelief alone. All other sins—so long as the faith in God’s promise made in baptism returns or remains—all other sins, I say, are immediately blotted out through that same faith, or rather through the truth of God, because He cannot deny Himself. - Martin Luther
 
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Oompa Loompa

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Grace means unmerited. We are save by grace through faith, not by works though faith. Salvation is free to anyone who believes the gospel. After being justified we are sealed in the holy ghost, in which we begin to be sanctified.
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
James 2:19

Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it. What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?
Matthew 16:24‭-‬26
 
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GraceInChrist

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You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
James 2:19
Romans 8:15

King James Version

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
 
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Oompa Loompa

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No, that might be what Lordship salvation teaches, but that's not what the Bible teaches.
What do you think Jesus meant when he said “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it. What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"
Matthew 16:24‭-‬26 NIV

What do you think "forfeit their soul" means?
 
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GraceInChrist

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You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
James 2:19

Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it. What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?
Matthew 16:24‭-‬26
Romans 3:21-28

King James Version

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
 
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Oompa Loompa

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Romans 8:15

King James Version

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Who is "ye" that Paul is referring to?
 
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GraceInChrist

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Who is "ye" that Paul is referring to?
Ephesians 1:13

King James Version

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Acts 2:38

King James Version

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
 
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Humble_Disciple

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You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
James 2:19

Gordon Clark’s question is appropriate: “The text says the devils believed in monotheism. Why cannot the difference between the devils and Christians be the different propositions believed, rather than a psychological element in belief?” In other words, the text does not say that the demons believe in Christ as Savior, or even that they believe in Christ as Savior and Lord. Those who use the illustration of the demons’ faith to prove the existence of a false intellectual faith that does not redeem, are “comparing apples with oranges.” Therefore, it is pressing the case too far to find in this passage an example of the kind of false faith that is inadequate to regenerate because it fails to produce consistent works. This argument has no clear value.
The Faith of Demons: James 2:19 – Grace Evangelical Society

Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it. What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?
Matthew 16:24‭-‬26
When I was in an extreme Lordship Salvation boy’s club, I viewed these verses as meaning that in order to get into heaven I had to 1) deny myself, take up my cross, and follow Christ, and 2) I had to continue doing that perfectly until I died....

The issue here is coming after Jesus, discipleship, not coming to Jesus, new birth (e.g., John 6:35).

The condition is works, not faith.

While the consequence is indeed saving one’s life (Matt 16:25-26), that refers primarily to eternal rewards in the life to come as Matt 16:27 makes clear: “He will reward each according to his works.”
Salvation by Self Denial? – Grace Evangelical Society

Pretty much any verse of scripture you can quote to support Lordship salvation has an explanation based on what the Protestant Reformers originally taught.

It's okay if you want to be Eastern Orthodox or Roman Catholic, I'd have no problem with that, but please don't claim to follow the Reformation and promote Lordship salvation at the same time. It's a contradiction of grace alone through faith alone.

While we are saved by grace alone through faith alone, our level of reward will be according to our works, as numerous passages of scripture suggest.

What is the purpose of there being rewards in heaven? | GotQuestions.org
 
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GraceInChrist

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Here is a link that actually explains what Lordship Salvation is. I think it would clear up some of the confusion on this thread.
What is lordship salvation? | GotQuestions.org
Colossians 2, clearly debunks your notion. It is not in our works we put to the death the flesh.

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
 
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Oompa Loompa

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Ephesians 1:13

King James Version

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Acts 2:38

King James Version

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
What did Peter mean by "repent"? Can salvation be attained without repentance?
 
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GraceInChrist

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What did Peter mean by "repent"? Can salvation be attained without repentance?
If you dont repent from your unbelieve, and admit you are a sinner. You can not be saved. Nevertheless, if by works of the law you wish to be justified you have denied grace.
 
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Soyeong

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Heresy is not a term that I use very often, but Lordship salvation is so contrary to the Reformation doctrine of grace alone through faith alone that I cannot help but condemn it. Lordship salvation teaches that one cannot receive Jesus as Savior without submitting to Him as Lord.

In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to obey His laws for how to do those things is itself part of the content of His give of salvation. Submitting to these laws through faith is what it means to submit to Jesus as Lord and is by no means contrary to grace alone through faith alone. Luther said that we are justified by faith alone, which is true insofar as there are no works that we can do to earn our salvation, however, he also taught along the lines that faith is never alone, which is true insofar as the same faith by which we are justified is also expressed as obedience to God's law, which is essentially what Paul was saying in Romans 3:28-31, where we are justified by faith apart form works, but our faith does not abolish our need to obey God's law, but rather the same faith by which we are justified also upholds God's laws by leading us to obey it. Luther said:

"Faith must of course be sincere. It must be a faith that performs good works through love. If faith lacks love it is not true faith. Thus the Apostle bars the way of hypocrites to the kingdom of Christ on all sides. He declares on the one hand, "In Christ Jesus circumcision availeth nothing," i.e., works avail nothing, but faith alone, and that without any merit whatever, avails before God. On the other hand, the Apostle declares that without fruits faith serves no purpose. To think, "If faith justifies without works, let us work nothing," is to despise the grace of God. Idle faith is not justifying faith. In this terse manner Paul presents the whole life of a Christian. Inwardly it consists in faith towards God, outwardly in love towards our fellow-men."

"The argument is sophistical and the refutation is resolved grammatically. In the major premise, "faith" ought to be placed with the word "justifies" and the portion of the sentence "without works justifies" is placed in a predicate periphrase and must refer to the word "justifies," not to "faith." In the minor premise, "without works" is truly in the subject periphrase and refers to faith. We say that justification is effective without works, not that faith is without works. For that faith which lacks fruit is not an efficacious but a reigned faith. "Without works" is ambiguous, then. For that reason this argument settles nothing. It is one thing that faith justifies without works; it is another thing that faith exists without works."

This is a destructive heresy, because it confuses justification with sanctification. By faith alone, our sins are forgiven, due to the price Jesus already paid on the cross. Once saved, we are called to a life of good works, in gratitude for our salvation, rather than in fear of not earning it.

Titus 2:11-14 notably does not say that we need to do those things in order to earn our salvation or that we will do those things after we have been saved, but rather it describes the content of our salvation as being trained by grace to do those things, so it is not confusing justification with sanctification. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so being trained by grace to live in obedience to God's law through faith is what it means to receive the content of gift of Jesus saving us from living in transgression of God's law, and one can't receive salvation while rejecting the content of salvation.

Lordship salvation teachers are like modern-day Pharisees:

While some Pharisees were not with their problems of pride, hypocrisy, and a lack of compassions, but their devotion to obeying God's word is something that should be admired rather than sneered at. Paul never stopped identify as a Pharisee (Acts 23:6), so most of the books of the NT are written by a Pharisee, and in 1 Corinthians 11:1, he instructed us to follow his example, so we are instructed to follow the example of a Pharisee.

I am not saying that believers in Lordship salvation are unsaved, because only Jesus can judge their hearts. Their teaching, however, is destructive, because it turns people away who would otherwise be saved. When Jesus forgave the thief on the cross, his belief was enough.

On the contrary, it is leading people away from the content of our salvation that is turning people away who would otherwise be saved. Someone can still have faith while being physically prevented from expressing it, but if your arms and feet aren't nailed to a cross, then you don't have that excuse.

This is Jesus' warning for Lordship salvation teachers today:

Please note that they call Jesus "Lord," and attempt to justify themselves by their works, and Jesus' answer is "I never knew you. Depart from me."
What is the work of God that profits unto salvation?

The Father has made His will known through His law (Psalms 40:8), and in Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of heaven and that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so his warning was for those who do not teach Lordship salvation.

Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

In John 3:36, it equates believing in Jesus with obeying His commands, so we can't believe in him without submitting to him as Lord.

Let us always remember that God considers us righteous by faith alone. No amount of obedience or disobedience to the Law can affect this irreversible and eternal position (John 5:24; Rom 4:5; Gal 2:16). Neither should our behavior affect our assurance in Christ, “in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him” (Eph 3:12). If you keep these truths in mind, you can obey from a heart of gratitude instead of from compulsion and fear. Salvation is liberating (John 8:32, 36)!
https://faithalone.org/grace-in-focus-articles/the-harsh-hand-of-lordship-theology/

We express our character traits through our actions, when when God declares us to be righteous by grace through faith, He is also declaring us to be someone who expresses his righteousness through our actions in obedience to His instructions for how to do that found in His law. In Psalms 119:142, God's law is truth, and in John 8:31-36, it is sin in transgression of God's law that puts us in bondage while it is the truth that sets us free.

The free grace of the Gospel goes against human reasoning. How could faith, apart from works, save us? It seems too simple, too good to be true. Paul had something to say about this:

In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, so that is again the content of the free grace of the Gospel.

John 3:14-15
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.

In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that obedience to God's commands is the way to enter eternal life, so again obedience to God's commands is what it means to believe in Him. When we express God's nature through our obedience to His law, was are testifying about what we believe about who God is, or in other words we are believing in Him.
 
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Oompa Loompa

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Pretty much any verse of scripture you can quote to support Lordship salvation has an explanation based on what the Protestant Reformers originally taught.

It's okay if you want to be Eastern Orthodox or Roman Catholic, I'd have no problem with that, but please don't claim to follow the Reformation and promote Lordship salvation at the same time. It's a contradiction of grace alone through faith alone.

While we are saved by grace alone through faith alone, our level of reward will be according to our works, as numerous passages of scripture suggest.

What is the purpose of there being rewards in heaven? | GotQuestions.org
Lordship salvation doesn't suggest that you can lose your salvation. It states that obedience, at the very least the desire to obey, is a product of salvation. Remember, we are saved by grace through faith to do works.
 
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What do you think Jesus meant when he said “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it. What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"
Matthew 16:24‭-‬26 NIV

What do you think "forfeit their soul" means?

This has already been explained to you.

When I was in an extreme Lordship Salvation boy’s club, I viewed these verses as meaning that in order to get into heaven I had to 1) deny myself, take up my cross, and follow Christ, and 2) I had to continue doing that perfectly until I died....

The issue here is coming after Jesus, discipleship, not coming to Jesus, new birth (e.g., John 6:35).

The condition is works, not faith.

While the consequence is indeed saving one’s life (Matt 16:25-26), that refers primarily to eternal rewards in the life to come as Matt 16:27 makes clear: “He will reward each according to his works.”
Salvation by Self Denial? – Grace Evangelical Society

While we are saved by grace alone through faith alone, our level of reward will be according to our works.

What is the purpose of there being rewards in heaven? | GotQuestions.org
 
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Humble_Disciple

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Lordship salvation doesn't suggest that you can lose your salvation.

Lordship salvation is promoted by Calvinists who believe that unless you live in obedience to the law, you were never truly saved in the first place, that you are a false professor.

1 Corinthians 3
3 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Please not that Paul calls the Corinthians "carnal," and yet he also calls them "brethren," meaning they are saved in Christ.

What is a better motivator for living a holy life, gratitude for the free gift of salvation or fear of eternal punishment?

Even if he [the Christian] wants to, he cannot lose his salvation, however much he sin, unless he will not believe. For no sin can condemn him save unbelief alone. All other sins—so long as the faith in God’s promise made in baptism returns or remains—all other sins, I say, are immediately blotted out through that same faith, or rather through the truth of God, because He cannot deny Himself. - Martin Luther
 
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GraceInChrist

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In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to obey His laws for how to do those things is itself part of the content of His give of salvation. Submitting to these laws through faith is what it means to submit to Jesus as Lord and is by no means contrary to grace alone through faith alone. Luther said that we are justified by faith alone, which is true insofar as there are no works that we can do to earn our salvation, however, he also taught along the lines that faith is never alone, which is true insofar as the same faith by which we are justified is also expressed as obedience to God's law, which is essentially what Paul was saying in Romans 3:28-31, where we are justified by faith apart form works, but our faith does not abolish our need to obey God's law, but rather the same faith by which we are justified also upholds God's laws by leading us to obey it. Luther said:

"Faith must of course be sincere. It must be a faith that performs good works through love. If faith lacks love it is not true faith. Thus the Apostle bars the way of hypocrites to the kingdom of Christ on all sides. He declares on the one hand, "In Christ Jesus circumcision availeth nothing," i.e., works avail nothing, but faith alone, and that without any merit whatever, avails before God. On the other hand, the Apostle declares that without fruits faith serves no purpose. To think, "If faith justifies without works, let us work nothing," is to despise the grace of God. Idle faith is not justifying faith. In this terse manner Paul presents the whole life of a Christian. Inwardly it consists in faith towards God, outwardly in love towards our fellow-men."

"The argument is sophistical and the refutation is resolved grammatically. In the major premise, "faith" ought to be placed with the word "justifies" and the portion of the sentence "without works justifies" is placed in a predicate periphrase and must refer to the word "justifies," not to "faith." In the minor premise, "without works" is truly in the subject periphrase and refers to faith. We say that justification is effective without works, not that faith is without works. For that faith which lacks fruit is not an efficacious but a reigned faith. "Without works" is ambiguous, then. For that reason this argument settles nothing. It is one thing that faith justifies without works; it is another thing that faith exists without works."



Titus 2:11-14 notably does not say that we need to do those things in order to earn our salvation or that we will do those things after we have been saved, but rather it describes the content of our salvation as being trained by grace to do those things, so it is not confusing justification with sanctification. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so being trained by grace to live in obedience to God's law through faith is what it means to receive the content of gift of Jesus saving us from living in transgression of God's law, and one can't receive salvation while rejecting the content of salvation.



While some Pharisees were not with their problems of pride, hypocrisy, and a lack of compassions, but their devotion to obeying God's word is something that should be admired rather than sneered at. Paul never stopped identify as a Pharisee (Acts 23:6), so most of the books of the NT are written by a Pharisee, and in 1 Corinthians 11:1, he instructed us to follow his example, so we are instructed to follow the example of a Pharisee.



On the contrary, it is leading people away from the content of our salvation that is turning people away who would otherwise be saved. Someone can still have faith while being physically prevented from expressing it, but if your arms and feet aren't nailed to a cross, then you don't have that excuse.



The Father has made His will known through His law (Psalms 40:8), and in Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of heaven and that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so his warning was for those who do not teach Lordship salvation.



In John 3:36, it equates believing in Jesus with obeying His commands, so we can't believe in him without submitting to him as Lord.



We express our character traits through our actions, when when God declares us to be righteous by grace through faith, He is also declaring us to be someone who expresses his righteousness through our actions in obedience to His instructions for how to do that found in His law. In Psalms 119:142, God's law is truth, and in John 8:31-36, it is sin in transgression of God's law that puts us in bondage while it is the truth that sets us free.



In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, so that is again the content of the free grace of the Gospel.



In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that obedience to God's commands is the way to enter eternal life, so again obedience to God's commands is what it means to believe in Him. When we express God's nature through our obedience to His law, was are testifying about what we believe about who God is, or in other words we are believing in Him.

Love isnt a work or law. Faith that works through love is the one saves us. When we believe we are justified then sanctified and guided by the holy ghost into good works.
 
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What did Peter mean by "repent"? Can salvation be attained without repentance?

In the original Greek, "repent" means to change one's mind. When we come to faith in Jesus Christ, we "repent" of our unbelief in Jesus as Savior and God. Repentance of sin can and should come later, but it's not a condition of receiving salvation.
 
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