My Finch Challenge

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Warden_of_the_Storm

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What do I have that the author knows what he’s talking about and can discern the difference between believer and non-believer?

The Confederates were Christians. Like it or not, as another Christian, you are in absolutely no position or have any right or judgement to say that they were Christians or not.
You do not get to ignore facts of history just because you find them inconvenient or upsetting.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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The Confederates were Christians. Like it or not, as another Christian, you are in absolutely no position or have any right or judgement to say that they were Christians or not.
You do not get to ignore facts of history just because you find them inconvenient or upsetting.
As I said, in my experience atheists cannot discern believers from non-believers. It’s not always easy for believers but we have a much better chance. Inconvenient or upsetting play no role.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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As I said, inky experience atheists cannot discern believers from non-believers. It’s not always easy for believers but we have a much better chances. Inconvenient or upsetting play no role.

That really has no bearing on what I said: the Americans that made up the majority of the Confederate states were Christians who believed that the Bible, which does condone slavery in the Old Testament, meant they could view African slaves as inferior.
 
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jacks

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I don't think Darwin would be considered "woke".

“At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilised races of man will almost certainly exterminate and replace throughout the world the savage races. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes, as Professor Schaaffhausen has remarked, will no doubt be exterminated. The break will then be rendered wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilised state as we may hope, than the Caucasian and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as at present between the negro or Australian and the gorilla.”

Charles Darwin, The Descent of Man
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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I don't think Darwin would be considered "woke".

“At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilised races of man will almost certainly exterminate and replace throughout the world the savage races. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes, as Professor Schaaffhausen has remarked, will no doubt be exterminated. The break will then be rendered wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilised state as we may hope, than the Caucasian and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as at present between the negro or Australian and the gorilla.”

Charles Darwin, The Descent of Man

It's really nothing new to point out because it's not exactly a hidden fact that the Victorian period was not a period of racial equality.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Sure I can. The bible doesn’t support slavery. It teaches us to love others as you love yourself. Since we don’t make ourself into slaves, we cannot justify doing that to others.

The bible "teaches" all kinds of things. Those things and many others. You can find almost anything in it (at least things that were known to human civilizations prior to 100 CE.)

It certainly provides the instructions for how to buy, treat, keep, sell, and free slaves. In other places it tells slaves how to regard their masters.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Incorrect.

But I’ll ask you a question the last atheist refused to answer.

Can a man be good father and rape his daughter?

Sure I can. The bible doesn’t support slavery. It teaches us to love others as you love yourself. Since we don’t make ourself into slaves, we cannot justify doing that to others.
As to your question, no.

And you really should study the Bible some day. It does a lot more than tell us (it does not "teach us") to love one another. It also tells you where to buy slaves. How long they are yours (if they are not Hebrews they are yours for life). How to trick your fellow Hebrew into being a life long slave. And that it is fine and dandy to sell your daughter into slavery. And by context that appears to be sex slavery. So that father may not be raping his daughter, but does it really matter at that point?
 
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Subduction Zone

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I am. All we have here are words. You cannot see me act or anything choices I make. And the evidence I have would be invisible to an atheist. Atheists do not demonstrate an ability to know the difference. An article says it, it must be so is a case in point.
What you call "evidence" is probably not evidence. And yes, atheists do often display the ability to know the difference. That is often why they are atheists in the first place. Quite a few atheists became atheists until they studied the Bible properly.
 
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Occams Barber

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Interesting that he appeals to God.
LOL. At one stage Darwin was taking an Arts degree at Cambridge and was being pushed by his father into becoming a country parson. His views on God seemed to vary but he tended to describe himself as an agnostic. I suspect his references to God in his writing were from habit.

Also, history records that he did nothing whatsoever about slavery. Nothing.
I'm not sure why you would expect him to. Darwin expressed his views on slavery to his contemporaries. Apart from that he was an exceptionally private person. It even took others to argue evolution on his behalf. Add in the fact that he was not well for a major part on his adult life and lived a country life removed from these type of issues and his lack of involvement in abolition is unremarkable.

The title of his non-peer reviewed book had an original title later edited as it used “favored races” in it. He was not referring to humans but still it had to edited.
While the Edinburgh Royal Society did a little peer review back in the 1730s, generalised peer review didn't come into effect until after WW2.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with your 'favoured races' comment. As you have observed 'races' in the context of the book is not a reference to humans. In the terminology of the time it was analogous to 'species'. The evolution of the title is a long and tedious issue but 'favoured races' was not a significant part of the debate.

The christians worked to end slavery because we see God creating all men equal. This would not come from the evolutionary theory. Quite the opposite actually.
Christianity has not always seen all men as equal. In fact our current concept of equality owes much to the atheistic inclinations of the French Revolution.

In the hands of the wrong people evolutionary theory has been misused. The same could be said for atomic theory or any one of a number of scientific advances. Being misused doesn't make it incorrect.

OB
 
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Occams Barber

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I thought the peppered moth story had been faked with pinned-on moths to tell a "good story" but was not actually an observed fact in nature when it comes to natural selection.

Just so no lone gets the idea I am expressing my POV again - here is the link

Talk:Peppered moth - Wikipedia.


If we're going to base our views on a scientific study on quotes in a Talk comment associated with the development of a Wikipedia article - two can play at that - from your link:

Perhaps Coyne and you should have read this Wikipedia article, or any of the rest of the scientific literature. The photos weren't "faked" -- they weren't supposed to be evidence that moths rest on tree trunks, they were only for the purposes of showing the contrast in color between the moths and their background. And the theory of evolution is extremely well established, as Coyne would be the first to tell you, and the peppered moth has nothing to do with it; it's just a particularly striking example of adaptive evolution in response to natural selection. -- Jibal 11:11, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

OB​
 
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Carl Emerson

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Does this verse convey that all men are equal???

Jonah 4:
11 Should I not also have compassion on Nineveh, the great city in which there are more than 120,000 people, who do not know the difference between their right hand and their left, as well as many animals?”
 
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Hans Blaster

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Does this verse convey that all men are equal???

Jonah 4:
11 Should I not also have compassion on Nineveh, the great city in which there are more than 120,000 people, who do not know the difference between their right hand and their left, as well as many animals?”


It's an odd story about a preacher sent by "Jehovah" to a distant city and something about a gourd. (It be more comprehensible if translated into modern English, or even modern Australian.)

I'm not sure why you would say this has anything to do with equality of all peoples.
 
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Carl Emerson

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It's an odd story about a preacher sent by "Jehovah" to a distant city and something about a gourd. (It be more comprehensible if translated into modern English, or even modern Australian.)

I'm not sure why you would say this has anything to do with equality of all peoples.

God saying that a race of peoples were handicapped ???
 
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Occams Barber

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God saying that a race of peoples were handicapped ???
I don't know the difference between my right and left hand but I've never thought of that as a handicap. Its just a bit of a nuisance when giving directions. In fact, since I can 'mouse' with either hand, it's a bit of an advantage. :)

OB
 
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Carl Emerson

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I don't know the difference between my right and left hand but I've never thought of that as a handicap. Its just a bit of a nuisance when giving directions. In fact, since I can 'mouse' with either hand, it's a bit of an advantage. :)

OB

Just put your fingers together and hold up your hands in front of you wth thumbs out...

One hand makes the shape of the letter L.

And feel sorry for those back then that didn't have our alphabet...
 
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HitchSlap

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As I said, in my experience atheists cannot discern believers from non-believers. It’s not always easy for believers but we have a much better chances. Inconvenient or upsetting play no role.
It’s quite easy for me. All I need do is identify the person who is charitable and accepting of others.
 
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Occams Barber

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ust put your fingers together and hold up your hands in front of you wth thumbs out...

One hand makes the shape of the letter L.
Thanks Carl. That will be useful.

And feel sorry for those back then that didn't have our alphabet...

When was back then?

The Hebrews had an alphabet well before JC. They were just a bit short on vowels. In fact the Hebrew alphabet, after passing through multiple cultures adding and deleting bits, became the basis for our alphabet.

OB
 
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Hans Blaster

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I don't know the difference between my right and left hand but I've never thought of that as a handicap. Its just a bit of a nuisance when giving directions. In fact, since I can 'mouse' with either hand, it's a bit of an advantage. :)

OB

I've heard about those who don't know their left foot from their right, but that's usually just a way to say they're clumsy, or specifically, that they can't dance. Never heard of not knowing left from right hands though.
 
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Occams Barber

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I've heard about those who don't know their left foot from their right, but that's usually just a way to say they're clumsy, or specifically, that they can't dance. Never heard of not knowing left from right hands though.

I've always had a bit of a left/right problem but in my early thirties I totally messed it up. I spent a year in Europe driving a right hand drive camper van on the right side of the road. Since we were tourists I drove almost every day (my then wife couldn't drive).

When we returned to Britain I immediately drove the wrong way around a roundabout.

That was 30 years ago and I'm still confused.

OB
 
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BobRyan

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If we're going to base our views on a scientific study on quotes in a Talk comment associated with the development of a Wikipedia article - two can play at that - from your link:

Perhaps Coyne and you should have read this Wikipedia article, or any of the rest of the scientific literature. The photos weren't "faked" -- they weren't supposed to be evidence that moths rest on tree trunks, they were only for the purposes of showing the contrast in color between the moths and their background. And the theory of evolution is extremely well established, as Coyne would be the first to tell you, and the peppered moth has nothing to do with it; it's just a particularly striking example of adaptive evolution in response to natural selection. -- Jibal 11:11, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

OB​

nice cover article...

here is another one

================================================

from: The moth files - creation.com

"The story concerning England’s Peppered Moths (Biston betularia) originally seemed very straightforward. The research is attributed to one H.B. Kettlewell, who is reported to have said that Darwin would be overjoyed to see the vindication of his theory. The insects used to be mostly of a light form, with occasional darker (melanic) forms. Light-coloured lichen growing on tree trunks meant that the light forms were very well camouflaged, while the dark ones would ‘stand out’ to the eyes of hungry birds.

"Therefore, it made sense that hungry birds would eat more of the lighter ones, so the dark ones would become the dominant form.
Pollution from the Industrial Revolution is said to have killed off much of the pale lichen covering the tree trunks, thus darkening them, so that now the dark forms were better camouflaged. Therefore, it made sense that hungry birds would eat more of the lighter ones, so the dark ones would become the dominant form.

"Kettlewell’s experimental observations were supposed to have shown that this is indeed what happened. Then, as pollution began to be cleaned up, the tree trunks became lighter again, so light moths resting on the tree trunks would now be less easily seen, thus the ratio shifted the other way.

Photographs were taken of the dark and the light forms resting on the tree trunks, showing how obvious the camouflage differences were. To further ‘clinch’ the case, birds were filmed preferentially ‘picking off’ the less camouflaged forms."

======

Maybe one more "The famous evolutionary biologist L. Harrison Matthews, writing in the foreword to the 1971 edition of Darwin’s Origin of Species, pointed out that the Peppered Moths observations showed natural selection, but not evolution in action. Selection is an important part of evolutionary theory, but it is not the same thing. However, most evolutionists, including H.B. Kettlewell, write as if they were the same thing, muddying the waters for the lay public "
 
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