How might Satan Mimic the Second Coming in the Clouds of Heaven?

DavidPT · Jun 11, 2021

parousia70 said:
Your argument appears to be with the apostles, not with me.

Irrefutably, at the AD 70 event, The Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of 1st century Israel and was the stone that crushed them to powder. Removing the kingdom for them and giving it to a new nation. Matthew 21:40-45

What's intersting about that, assuming 70 AD explains it, the following topic came up way before 70 AD though, and that Jesus never told them they were asking an invalid question at the time. Instead, He said it was not for them to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

I have to wonder what Israel some of you take this Israel to be meaning? I have to wonder when some of you think the kingdom was already taken away from this Israel prior to 70 AD, assuming 70 AD is when that happens?

The Israel meant here is an Israel that is in need of restoring again the kingdom to itself, this already being the case at the time of the ascension, and that the ascension precedes 70 AD, not follows it. 'Again' being a keyword since This infers that there was a time when the kingdom was restored to Israel, but then something happened, thus it being in need of being restored again to itself.

I tend to think it has to do with the 70 weeks myself, that at the end of that, the kingdom will again be restored to Israel. But if those 70 weeks have already come and gone, then why did 70 AD happen to an Israel that the kingdom was once again restored to? That's some messed up chronology IMO, that the ending of the 70 weeks would precede 70 AD rather than follow it instead.

Timtofly · Jun 11, 2021

parousia70 said:
So, while John was on Patmos, he was not a fellow partaker in "The tribulation of Jesus Christ" during "the Day of the Lord"? Even though he said he was?

9 I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet,

When you say "about to happen" do you mean the same thing the apostles meant when they said it? or do you mean something different?

Aren't you among those who claim "about to happen" = thousands of years away?

I am not one of those who claim the fulness of the Gentiles was soon over in that generation. Should it have been 1991 years long? God is longsuffering.

Timtofly · Jun 11, 2021

parousia70 said:
Except for:
Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen
Ephesians 3:21

Happy to loan you a Sharpie if, to keep your doctrine intact, you need to redact this verse from your Bible...

Abel was the first church member. The 2 witnesses will be the last two. Throughout all ages, yes. The world is not infinite.

parousia70 · Jun 11, 2021

Timtofly said:
I am not one of those who claim the fulness of the Gentiles was soon over in that generation.

You'd be wrong not to make the claim.

The "fullness of the gentiles" (also: "fulness of the nations") must be understood as the same "FULNESS" as used in its other N.T. citations such as in John 1:16, Ephesians 3:19, and Colossians 1:19 (Greek = "pleroma"). This fulness, properly understood, is the fulness that came to the gentiles in the first century by being grafted into the pure Olive Tree of true Israel -- that is, the gentiles as a body were becoming partakers in the "pleroma" ("fulness") of the Abrahamic/Christic blessing. They were granted full sonship and inheritance as described in Ephesians chapter 3:1-21. This FULNESS, "pleroma", as in John 1:16, came to the gentiles via Paul's ministry (Acts 26:17-19; Romans 15:16; Ephesians 3:1-21). By reading the Ephesians 3:1-21 account in total we get the broad scope of Paul's work to deliver the full inheritance and riches to the gentiles via his ministry "that they might be filled with ALL THE PLEROMA ("fulness") of God" -- Ephesians 3:19.

Fulness in scripture is a QUALITY, not a Quantity.

The "fulness of the gentiles" came in no later than the end of Paul's Ministry. We are not still waiting for Gentile Fulness to occur.

parousia70 · Jun 11, 2021

Timtofly said:
Abel was the first church member. The 2 witnesses will be the last two. Throughout all ages, yes. The world is not infinite.

Scripture teaches that the earth and material cosmos will exist forever (Ecc 1:4; Ps 78:69; 89:36-37; 104:5; 148:4-6; Eph 3:21) and that human generations are unending and perpetual (Ps 145:13; Dan 4:3,34; Dan 7:14,18,27; Lk 1:33) and through it all, the Church will never fall (Matt 16:28) and indeed continues through all ages, world without end, amen (Eph 3:21)

If you need a Sharpie to redact all these passages form your Bible so your doctrine can remain intact, let me know.

AdamjEdgar · Jun 11, 2021

parousia70 said:
Your argument appears to be with the apostles, not with me.

Irrefutably, at the AD 70 event, The Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of 1st century Israel and was the stone that crushed them to powder. Removing the kingdom for them and giving it to a new nation. Matthew 21:40-45

EH????

What has Matthew 21 got to do with your statement. I see no relationship there. MAtthew 21:33-45 is a parable not a prophecy. You know what a parable is yes? It is a story to convey a learning experience...to teach. (read this same story in Mark 12 and Luke 20)

I have provided you with historical fact that comes from outside of the Bible that proves biblical prophecy and you say "my argument is with the apostles"?

what argument with what apostle?

AdamjEdgar · Jun 11, 2021

parousia70 said:
Scripture teaches that the earth and material cosmos will exist forever (Ecc 1:4; Ps 78:69; 89:36-37; 104:5; 148:4-6; Eph 3:21) and that human generations are unending and perpetual (Ps 145:13; Dan 4:3,34; Dan 7:14,18,27; Lk 1:33) and through it all, the Church will never fall (Matt 16:28) and indeed continues through all ages, world without end, amen (Eph 3:21)

If you need a Sharpie to redact all these passages form your Bible so your doctrine can remain intact, let me know.

I am interested...are you saying there will not be created a new heavens and a new earth?

Isaiah 65:17 "For behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind. 18But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; for I will create Jerusalem to be a joy and its people to be a delight"

Isaiah 66:22
"For just as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, will endure before Me," declares the LORD,"

2 Peter 3:13
"Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."

Revelation 21:1
"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and the sea was no more."

Timtofly · Jun 11, 2021

Freedm said:
So dead in Christ means physically dead?

Everything about the physical is death.

We are in dead corruptible bodies. This life is the only death we will experience. The soul does not physically die. The body physically dies. The soul goes from one physical body to another physical body. That is what the rapture is for. The soul goes from the dead corruptible to the permanent incorruptible physical body.

The same change those in Christ have now. Except the soul goes to a permanent incorruptible body in Paradise.

Timtofly · Jun 11, 2021

Freedm said:
It was the end. The end of the age of darkness.

Isaiah 9:2
The people walking in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of deep darkness a light has dawned.

Isaiah 42:16
I will turn the darkness into light before them and make the rough places smooth. These are the things I will do; I will not forsake them.

John 1:5
The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

John 3:19-21
This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

John 8:12
When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

Romans 13:12
The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armour of light.

Ephesians 5:8
For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light

That was at the Cross.

Not 70AD.

Timtofly · Jun 11, 2021

parousia70 said:
You'd be wrong not to make the claim.

The "fullness of the gentiles" (also: "fulness of the nations") must be understood as the same "FULNESS" as used in its other N.T. citations such as in John 1:16, Ephesians 3:19, and Colossians 1:19 (Greek = "pleroma"). This fulness, properly understood, is the fulness that came to the gentiles in the first century by being grafted into the pure Olive Tree of true Israel -- that is, the gentiles as a body were becoming partakers in the "pleroma" ("fulness") of the Abrahamic/Christic blessing. They were granted full sonship and inheritance as described in Ephesians chapter 3:1-21. This FULNESS, "pleroma", as in John 1:16, came to the gentiles via Paul's ministry (Acts 26:17-19; Romans 15:16; Ephesians 3:1-21). By reading the Ephesians 3:1-21 account in total we get the broad scope of Paul's work to deliver the full inheritance and riches to the gentiles via his ministry "that they might be filled with ALL THE PLEROMA ("fulness") of God" -- Ephesians 3:19.

Fulness in scripture is a QUALITY, not a Quantity.

The "fulness of the gentiles" came in no later than the end of Paul's Ministry. We are not still waiting for Gentile Fulness to occur.

Well the quality has not stopped for many.

Some in apostasy lack quality.

Since you claim even the quality is over, and fulfilled, according to you, we have been in a nothing holding pattern for some 1900 years.

The fulness did not stop and 70AD was never a stopping point except for some stones, no longer had a definite shape to them.

Timtofly · Jun 11, 2021

parousia70 said:
Scripture teaches that the earth and material cosmos will exist forever (Ecc 1:4; Ps 78:69; 89:36-37; 104:5; 148:4-6; Eph 3:21) and that human generations are unending and perpetual (Ps 145:13; Dan 4:3,34; Dan 7:14,18,27; Lk 1:33) and through it all, the Church will never fall (Matt 16:28) and indeed continues through all ages, world without end, amen (Eph 3:21)

If you need a Sharpie to redact all these passages form your Bible so your doctrine can remain intact, let me know.

I think Jesus covered that in the fact heaven and earth may pass away, but the Word of God, never.

parousia70 · Jun 11, 2021

AdamjEdgar said:
I am interested...are you saying there will not be created a new heavens and a new earth?

Isaiah 65:17 "For behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind. 18But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; for I will create Jerusalem to be a joy and its people to be a delight"

Glad you’re interested

I’d be happy to discuss my views on this with you, I’d like to start with a brief understanding of your take on the above passage you cited.

Isaiah 65:20-23
No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 They shall build houses and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 They shall not build and another inhabit;
They shall not plant and another eat;
For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people,
And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labor in vain,
Nor bring forth children for trouble;
For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the Lord,
And their offspring with them.

In the Isaiah 65 account above, he states in the New Heavens and earth there will be:
Birth
Ageing
Death
Sinners
Generational Procreation
Vocations/Labor/Work
The need for shelter
The need to eat food

Is this how you understand the New Heavens and earth will be as well?
Or do you take a different view from Isaiah?

I just wanna be sure we’re talking about the same new heavens and earth period.

parousia70 · Jun 11, 2021

Timtofly said:
Well the quality has not stopped for many.

Who says it’s supposed to stop?

Jeffwhosoever · Jun 11, 2021

parousia70 said:
Glad you’re interested
I’d be happy to discuss my views on this with you, I’d like to start with a brief understanding of your take on the above passage you cited.

Isaiah 65:20-23
No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 They shall build houses and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 They shall not build and another inhabit;
They shall not plant and another eat;
For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people,
And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labor in vain,
Nor bring forth children for trouble;
For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the Lord,
And their offspring with them.

In the Isaiah 65 account above, he states in the New Heavens and earth there will be:
Birth
Ageing
Death
Sinners
Generational Procreation
Vocations/Labor/Work
The need for shelter
The need to eat food

Is this how you understand the New Heavens and earth will be as well?
Or do you take a different view from Isaiah?

I just wanna be sure we’re talking about the same new heavens and earth period.

I'd like to answer for my own views.
I believe IMHO that Isaiah above is describing the 1000 year millennia and not the new Heavens and New Earth which follow the 1000 years and the Great White Throne judgment. During the 1000 years those who are saved prior to the start of the millenia will be on the earth with the Lord in eternal bodies, but sinners will still be here though in that period of time with Satan bound, less death and disease will be present so people will live to their normal full life expectancy and infants and young children will not die very prematurely. But once we are into eternity, there is no more death and no more sin in the New Heavens and New Earth. In fact, I think the size of the new Jerusalem could be exactly the huge size in Scripture because a new Earth could be the size of Jupiter or even the sun or yet even larger. There is no reason to keep the Earth exactly the same size for eternity, so a city miles high and wide is very possible with a planet 1000 to a billion times larger than present. Since we will have the Lord, Father, and Holy Spirit, we won't need a sun or stars anymore cause we will have the real light to guide us, so the earth does not have to fit into the same form factor that now fits into our solar system model. In fact, even the other planets could be gone entirely or remade into one giant planet Earth for eternity. The bible doesn't say but I can't see why it would be necessary when the Lord "makes all things new" not to recreate the Earth to be massively bigger than in the present age or 1000 years.

My view on the millenium was profoundly changed by Wayne Grudem's book Systematic Theology which I invite everyone to study as its an awesome book written by a Reformed scholar.

Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine

parousia70 · Jun 11, 2021

Jeffwhosoever said:
I'd like to answer for my own views.
I believe IMHO that Isaiah above is describing the 1000 year millennia and not the new Heavens and New Earth which follow the 1000 years and the Great White Throne judgment. During the 1000 years those who are saved prior to the start of the millenia will be on the earth with the Lord in eternal bodies, but sinners will still be here though in that period of time with Satan bound, less death and disease will be present so people will live to their normal full life expectancy and infants and young children will not die very prematurely. But once we are into eternity, there is no more death and no more sin in the New Heavens and New Earth. In fact, I think the size of the new Jerusalem could be exactly the huge size in Scripture because a new Earth could be the size of Jupiter or even the sun or yet even larger. There is no reason to keep the Earth exactly the same size for eternity, so a city miles high and wide is very possible with a planet 1000 to a billion times larger than present. Since we will have the Lord, Father, and Holy Spirit, we won't need a sun or stars anymore cause we will have the real light to guide us, so the earth does not have to fit into the same form factor that now fits into our solar system model. In fact, even the other planets could be gone entirely or remade into one giant planet Earth for eternity. The bible doesn't say but I can't see why it would be necessary when the Lord "makes all things new" not to recreate the Earth to be massively bigger than in the present age or 1000 years.

My view on the millenium was profoundly changed by Wayne Grudem's book Systematic Theology which I invite everyone to study as its an awesome book written by a Reformed scholar.

Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine

Got it. So when Isaiah says he’s describing the new heavens and earth, you don’t take him literally?

You believe Isaiah is using the term new heavens and earth as some sort of elastic, nonliteral term to describe the millennium, A time Completely separate and different from the biblical new heavens and earth, even though Isaiah specifically calls it the new heavens and earth.

Do I have that right?

Are there other scriptures you can point us to that you likewise believe don’t mean what they say? Or is Isaiah’s depiction of the new heavens and earth the only one?

Or maybe you believe Isaiah was mistaken or didn’t have all the information so spoke outside of his authority?
claimed He was describing the new heavens and earth even though he had no clue that he was wrong?
Are there any other scriptures you can point us to wear the prophets of God got it wrong like this?

Jeffwhosoever · Jun 11, 2021

No, you do not have it right, in that you misinterpreted what I wrote, then put words in my mouth I did not say. I think I was clear in that yes there is a new heaven and new earth, just as the Apostle John describes in Revelation. The 1000 years is prior to that point in time. You are getting context mixed up. Or you just want to argue for argument's sake.

Here is my view of Scripture which at least at present I interpret through the lens of Futurism as well you should know by now through all my posts.

Rapture-3.5 years-Wrath of God begins - 3.5 years - end of great tribulation - 1000 year reign of Christ - then a new heaven and new earth.

Jeffwhosoever · Jun 11, 2021

Revelation 21:1-4
21 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

Isaiah seems to be non-linear, and the comparison to Revelation makes it clear that Isaiahs prophecy should not be interpreted as consecutive sequences in time with the new heaven and new earth proceeding the sinners. There is no contradiction between Revelation and what Isaiah wrote, otherwise you have to assume John is wrong in what he wrote or Isaiah is wrong, but that is an unnecessary assumption to make merely to hold to an implied consecutive order in Isaiah.

TribulationSigns · Jun 11, 2021

GraceInChrist said:
I speak not from the bible, but from intuition. More than likely, the antichrist will be reveal after the vatican is destroyed. Fooling many the great harlot has fallen. Roman Catholic will believe he came to reform the church, and many other protestants will think God has come with judgement.

Intuition? Does it have the authority of Truth over the Bible? Ouches!

2Ti 3:16-17
(16) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
(17) That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2Pe 1:20-21
(20) Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
(21) For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Your "intuition" about the Vatican WITHOUT SCRIPTURE SUPPORT is nothing but a private interpretation.

TribulationSigns · Jun 11, 2021

Hammster said:
You may have read something into my post that wasn’t there. I never said that AD 70 was the Second Coming™. I said that He came on the clouds.

Obviously, you assumed it was in 70AD, and since Jesus Christ did not come "physically", you used "the clouds" as an excuse to support your flawed doctrine.

Mat 24:29-31
(29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
(30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The tribulation has nothing to do with 70AD. The sound of trumpet did not sound in 70AD. The gathering together elect did not occur in 70AD. You do not even know what is the meaning of the clouds in Srpture. For example:

Rev 11:11-12
(11) And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
(12) And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Let examine your understanding...Who are the Two Witnesses in Revelation 11 that receive power to preach Gospel? What is this Spirit of Life that resurrects Two Witnessed after 3-1/2 days (hint: not literally) of being killed by the beast? What death did they resurrect from? Is it physically or spiritually? To ascended up to heaven IN A CLOUD. Why? Show me the Scripture instead of making some speculations "without" Scripture that this "cloud" somehow applies to 70AD.

GraceInChrist · Jun 11, 2021

TribulationSigns said:
Intuition? Does it have the authority of Truth over the Bible? Ouches!

2Ti 3:16-17
(16) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
(17) That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2Pe 1:20-21
(20) Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
(21) For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Your "intuition" about the Vatican WITHOUT SCRIPTURE SUPPORT is nothing but a private interpretation.

You should read more carefully what I said. If I was satan, I would use people pre conceptions in my favor to replacate prophecy. I never said the vatican is the great harlot. Cant you get it by my statement. Its by intuition.

How might Satan Mimic the Second Coming in the Clouds of Heaven?

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

Faithful Servant & Seminary Student

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

Faithful Servant & Seminary Student

Faithful Servant & Seminary Student

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Similar threads