The physical descendants of the ancient nation of Israel.

jgr

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Again, I did not state an OPINION. I stated a HARD FACT. The Bible simply DOES NOT say that "the church" is Israel. And it DOES NOT say that anyone who is not a physical descendant of the ancient nation of Israel is an Israelite.

What you said WAS opinion. But what I said, in the multi-part OP, was NOT opinion, but was what the scriptures REPEATEDLY and EXPLICITLY state, in PLAIN, CLEAR, words.

The word "church" does not appear in Scripture's or my description of "all Israel".

The word "Israelite" does not appear in Scripture's or my description of "all Israel".

Who then is included in "all Israel"?

Romans 9:6-8

All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Galatians 3:16,28-29.
 
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jgr

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Ezekiel 38-39 is not scripture? Israel in those chapters is a physical location, not a theological position.

A physical location is incomplete without identifying who inhabits it, i.e. who is included in "all Israel".

Romans 9:6-8

All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Galatians 3:16,28-29.
 
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Biblewriter

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The word "church" does not appear in Scripture's or my description of "all Israel".

The word "Israelite" does not appear in Scripture's or my description of "all Israel".

Who then is included in "all Israel"?

Romans 9:6-8

All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Galatians 3:16,28-29.

You are leaving out a word that makes all the difference. That is the word "not," "ου" in the Greek. The true meaning of the last clause of Romans 9:29, which in Greek reads, "ου γαρ παντεϛ οι εξ ισραηλ ουτοι ισραηλ ," and translates literally as, "not for all the of Israel these Israel," is given by numerous translators as:

NASB:
For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

ISV:
For not all Israelites truly belong to Israel,

ESV:
For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,

CSV:
After all, not all of the people of Israel are the true people of God.

and DARBY:
for not all [are] Israel which [are] of Israel;

So the INTEERPRETATION you CHOOSE to impose on this clause is contrary to the mature judgment of MANY highly reputed scholars of the Greek language.

But this is not JUST the opinions of numerous respected scholars. For the Holy Spirit himself, in speaking through Paul, explained this rather obscure Greek statement in the following seven verses by giving an example of two physical descendants of Abraham, only one of which was the chosen "seed." Then, for the rest of the chapter, God defends His RIGHT to make such choices. But in the entire discussion, He never even suggests that the chosen "seed" could be someone who was not also a physical "seed of Abraham."

THAT interpretation, for that is ALL it is. For it is NEVER actually STATED in scripture, and you get it from a different discussion, which you also wrest.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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You only read PART of what I said. In the second post of this thread,
None of what you've said changes the fact that you believe God will do something for the people of Israel to save them that He won't do for other nations. That means you are making God out to be a respecter of persons while scripture repeatedly says that He is not.

Romans 9 most certainly DOES NOT actually SAY being children of the flesh is not a factor before God, as you are INTERPRETING it to MEAN. YOU are claiming the authority to determine who are "the children of the promise." But in YOUR determination, you are willfully ignoring what the scriptures I quoted EXPLICITLY say.
you went on to say, I have highlighted in boldfaced red that part of this statement that is 100% pure INTERPRETATION on your part. Not even ONE scripture actually SAYS any of that.

So I maintain, as I said before, that you are using YOUR INTERPRETATION of the MEANINGS of SOME scriptures as an excuse to deny what OTHER scriptures EXPLICITLY say.
You can maintain that all you want, but it doesn't make it true. Let's look at the passage yet again.

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Can you please tell me what you think it means when it says "they are not all Israel which are of Israel"? Clearly, it's referring to two different Israels there or else the statement would be complete nonsense.

Can you please tell me what you think it means when it says "Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children"?

Can you please tell me what you think it means when it says "They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed"? Would you agree that it's saying that being a child of the flesh (a natural Israelite descendant) is not what makes someone a child of God, but rather being a child of the promise makes one a child of God?
 
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Spiritual Jew

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You cannot provide even one scripture that actually SAYS that faith in Christ makes a person an Israelite.
Maybe you should learn how to interpret scripture with scripture. The following passages clearly teach that faith in Christ makes a person an Israelite. Not in the sense of the earthly nation of Israel, but of the spiritual nation of Israel.

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

This passage makes it clear that being part of the Israel of which not all of the nation of Israel are part means you are a child of God. It is the children of the promise who are counted as the children of God. The following passage shows who is a child of God:

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

All you need to do here is put two and two together and it becomes clear that it is the children of God who are part of spiritual Israel and one is not automatically part of spiritual Israel just because of being a natural Israelite or natural descendant of Abraham. And the children of God are those who have faith in Jesus Christ. That means those who have faith in Jesus Christ are the ones who make up spiritual Israel, whether they are Jew or Gentile.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Again, I did not state an OPINION. I stated a HARD FACT. The Bible simply DOES NOT say that "the church" is Israel. And it DOES NOT say that anyone who is not a physical descendant of the ancient nation of Israel is an Israelite.

What you said WAS opinion. But what I said, in the multi-part OP, was NOT opinion, but was what the scriptures REPEATEDLY and EXPLICITLY state, in PLAIN, CLEAR, words.
So, I guess to you reading scripture is no different than reading a story in a newspaper or magazine, right? It's just all LITERAL and STRAIGHTFORWARD and all EXPLICITLY stated? No spiritual discernment is required to understand it?

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
 
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Douggg

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jgr

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Christ had not yet come.

The Christian Church began after Christ came.

"All Israel" is found today in all of those inside the boundaries of Israel who are in Christ.

And in all of those outside of the boundaries of Israel who are in Christ.

And in no others.
 
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Biblewriter

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So, I guess to you reading scripture is no different than reading a story in a newspaper or magazine, right? It's just all LITERAL and STRAIGHTFORWARD and all EXPLICITLY stated? No spiritual discernment is required to understand it?
Actually, what is REQUIRED is actually BELIEVING what God has REPEATEDLY and EXPLICITLY said in PLAIN, CLEAR, words. You are using the INTERPRETATION you have CHOSEN to IMPOSE upon a few scriptures that NEVER, even once ACTUALLY SAY what you CHOOSE to INTERPRET them to MEAN, as an excuse to DENY what God has EXPLICITLY said.
 
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jgr

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Actually, what is REQUIRED is actually BELIEVING what God has REPEATEDLY and EXPLICITLY said in PLAIN, CLEAR, words. You are using the INTERPRETATION you have CHOSEN to IMPOSE upon a few scriptures that NEVER, even once ACTUALLY SAY what you CHOOSE to INTERPRET them to MEAN, as an excuse to DENY what God has EXPLICITLY said.

Why not try to answer some of the questions which you've been asked?

And tell us what you choose to interpret the Scriptures to mean.

Such as Galatians 3:26-29.
 
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Douggg

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Christ had not yet come.

The Christian Church began after Christ came.

"All Israel" is found today in all of those inside the boundaries of Israel who are in Christ.

And in all of those outside of the boundaries of Israel who are in Christ.

And in no others.
Ezekiel 38-39 is latter days, latter years. Ezekiel 38v8,v16.

Jesus came 2000 years ago. The inhabitants over there in the land of Israel, making up the nation of Israel are the house of Israel - not the church.

Ezekiel 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
 
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Timtofly

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None of what you've said changes the fact that you believe God will do something for the people of Israel to save them that He won't do for other nations. That means you are making God out to be a respecter of persons while scripture repeatedly says that He is not.
When it comes to Israel, God is a respector of persons. When it comes to the Atonement, God is not. That is the whole point.

The tree is not Israel. The Tree is the Atonement. Two separate branches. The church will never be the Israelite branch. When you call the whole tree the church because of the Atonement, or all of Israel the church because of the Atonement, it is conflating the church with the Atonement and forgetting what the church is.


The church is currently a wild branch for the fulness of the Gentiles, but Israel is still welcome as part of the wild branch. The church is not the Atonement. The church is made up of those who decide to be a part of the branch, and thus covered by the Atonement.

Yes, the wild branch will be broken off and the natural branch put back. God will then be a respecter of persons during the great tribulation. There will not be a church during the Great Tribulation.

The branches changed when Israel was removed as Steward of the vineyard. The church will be removed as Steward. Christ will be here for the final harvest. The Israelite branch will be restored. It will be restored until the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ. After that it will be a new reality.

Replacing a branch is not replacing the whole tree, even if there is only one branch. The wild branch did not make the tree different nor wild. The tree made the wild branch whole. So the Gentile church did not replace the natural branch. God stopped making Israel whole and fruitful. The church did replace Israel has having spiritual authority. But not in ruling earth, in being responsible for the harvest of souls. Many joined Israel in a good way, not just as agents of Satan to destroy Israel. The same happens to the church, when the spirit of antichrist takes over. Many join for the right reason. Others enter to destroy the church. Just like not all of Israel was Israel, so not all of the Gentile church is of Christ. Those verses only are indicative of the respected branches. They do not define how the branches relate to each other. The natural branch is not even connected at the moment, but set aside. The Second Coming will reverse that position. The wild branch gone, and the natural branch restored. Paul never claimed that would not nor could not happen. He said don't puff yourself up being the current branch. God could remove any branch at any time.
 
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Timtofly

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Can you please tell me what you think it means when it says "They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed"? Would you agree that it's saying that being a child of the flesh (a natural Israelite descendant) is not what makes someone a child of God, but rather being a child of the promise makes one a child of God?
The promise was given to Abraham. Abraham only had one son, Isaac to recieve that promise. Isaac only had one son Israel to recieve that promise. God is a respecter of certain persons when it comes to the seed. Even refined in the two sons of Joseph.

You cannot give the attributes of the wild branch to those of the natural branch. Two separate branches. Two different ways God deals with the branches. A natural biological seed has no choice in how they enter the world.

To be part of the wild branch is not natural, nor biological. It is a choice of each person grafted into the branch.

God says He reserves the right to declare who He chooses in the natural branch. Many can be plucked off.

God does not reject any soul that chooses to be part of the wild branch. All are welcome, not just a so called, elect. If a soul never chooses, God is not going to attach that soul contrary to that choice.

The natural branch does have God removing those, even if it seems they want to stay, because God knows their heart, when they are even decieving themselves. God does not remove any from the wild branch. They were never there, for the same reason, their heart decieved them. Gave them away, that they were just pretending.

That is the difference between the branches. That is why one branch did not replace the other, theologically without a dispensational act of God. The church did not replace the theology or religion of the Jews. That is a reasoning of humanism leaving God out of the picture, even if applied to Salvation and the Atonement.

People then try to apply attributes of one branch back onto the other branch. That cannot work.
 
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parousia70

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Jesus Christ is the ultimate fulfillment of Israel found in Matthew 1:1

The promise was made to the one seed, instead of the many seeds, in Galatians 3:16

Christians are "Abraham's seed" in inheritors of the promise, based on Galatians 3:27-29

The land belongs to "the son" in Matthew chapter 21. It does not belong to those who reject Him as the "chief cornerstone"

When the Lord of the vineyard came and destroyed them, The kingdom was taken from the nation which rejected the "chief cornerstone" and given to the "holy nation" which accepts the "chief cornerstone" 1 Peter 2:4-10, Matthew 21:40-45


Based on the above, who are those really teaching "Replacement Theology"?

You are correct. It is an easy decision.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, the modern “Two Peoples of God” doctrine falls apart.
 
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Douggg

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Jesus Christ is the ultimate fulfillment of Israel found in Matthew 1:1

The promise was made to the one seed, instead of the many seeds, in Galatians 3:16

Christians are "Abraham's seed" in inheritors of the promise, based on Galatians 3:27-29

The land belongs to "the son" in Matthew chapter 21. It does not belong to those who reject Him as the "chief cornerstone"

When the Lord of the vineyard came and destroyed them, The kingdom was taken from the nation which rejected the "chief cornerstone" and given to the "holy nation" which accepts the "chief cornerstone" 1 Peter 2:4-10, Matthew 21:40-45


Based on the above, who are those really teaching "Replacement Theology"?

You are correct. It is an easy decision.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, the modern “Two Peoples of God” doctrine falls apart.
Please explain who Israel is in Ezekiel 38-39.
 
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parousia70

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Please explain who Israel is in Ezekiel 38-39.
Old Covenant Israel, of course, Prior to the Advent of Messiah.. Made up of Physical Descendants of Jacob as well as non physical descendants who converted, Followed the Law and Joined the nation.

Why do you ask?
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Actually, what is REQUIRED is actually BELIEVING what God has REPEATEDLY and EXPLICITLY said in PLAIN, CLEAR, words. You are using the INTERPRETATION you have CHOSEN to IMPOSE upon a few scriptures that NEVER, even once ACTUALLY SAY what you CHOOSE to INTERPRET them to MEAN, as an excuse to DENY what God has EXPLICITLY said.
Should I TAKE this to MEAN that you BELIEVE Paul was MISTAKEN in 1 Corinthians 2 when he said HIS WORDS (which are written in SCRIPTURE) need to be SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED? You say no spiritual discernment is necessary and you apparently think that everything in scripture is EXPLICITLY said in PLAN, CLEAR words. Sorry, but I'm going to side with Paul on this, not you.
 
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Biblewriter

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Should I TAKE this to MEAN that you BELIEVE Paul was MISTAKEN in 1 Corinthians 2 when he said HIS WORDS (which are written in SCRIPTURE) need to be SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED? You say no spiritual discernment is necessary and you apparently think that everything in scripture is EXPLICITLY said in PLAN, CLEAR words. Sorry, but I'm going to side with Paul on this, not you.
Spiritual discernment does not EVER, IN ANY CASE, do away with what God EXPLICITLY said in PLAIN, CLEAR words.
 
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Douggg

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Old Covenant Israel, of course, Prior to the Advent of Messiah.. Made up of Physical Descendants of Jacob as well as non physical descendants who converted, Followed the Law and Joined the nation.

Why do you ask?
Ezekiel 38-39 is latter days, latter years. Has not taken place yet. Proven so because there is no mass grave site in the land of Israel, yet.

Israel, the Jews, have yet to embrace the gospel of salvation, nor Jesus as the Lord their God.
 
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