Law vs Grace

fhansen · Jun 8, 2021

Sidon said:
The "difference is", that God "found fault"' with the first covenant. (The Old Testament).
So, He brought in The Cross and the shed Blood of Jesus, and took care of all that was at "fault" regarding the First.
If you can find God on the Cross in the Old Testament, then keep saying they are the "same".
If not, think about what you are trying to believe, and get away from the people who taught you their legalism.

No, you need to think about what you're trying to believe and get away from the people who taught you quasi-heresy, and try actually comprehending what you're reading in both the bible and people's posts. I certainly didn't say that the covenants were the same-the new fulfills the old, just as the Spirit accomplishes what the law could not (Rom 8:3-4). And if you understand the basics of the new covenant and God's will for and dealings with man from Genesis through Revelation you'll understand the difference that I wrote about, the full purpose of the cross and the blood.

Sidon · Jun 8, 2021

Butterball1 said:
For us today who live under Christ's NT law are made righteous by being obedient to that NT law, .

If obeying the law makes you righteous, then the Cross is a BIG mistake.

See, It can't be both.
If the law can make you RIGHTEOUS, then God was foolish to come down here and Die on The Cross.

So, is God foolish, or are you wrong?
Better figure that one out.

eleos1954 · Jun 8, 2021

Sidon said:
The problem with the Law and Commandments, are still the same problem.
They can't make you righteous.
The Cross solved that, which is why God revoked the old covenant, by creating the NEW TESTAMENT, which is the Blood Atonement.

The law is not the problem ..... WE have the problem we can't keep the law (without Jesus) .... Jesus kept the law and when we have received Him as Lord and Savior .... HIS righteous is "applied to our account". The wages of sin is death (what we deserve) At judgement we will be judged as innocent. We are made righteous through Jesus (His grace).

God did not make the law obsolete or change it .... we are "pardoned" through the shed blood of Christ.

What is sin? Answer: Transgression of the Law.
Without the Law we would not know what sin is.

Until judgement .... the Holy Spirit works in the believer ... to do what? To overcome sin (transgression of the law) ... His work continues over the coarse of our earthly life.

Philippians 1:6

AMPC
And I am convinced and sure of this very thing, that He Who began a good work in you will continue until the day of Jesus Christ [right up to the time of His return], developing [that good work] and perfecting and bringing it to full completion in you.

For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:3-4 NKJV

The good news according to Romans 8:3-4 is that when the Holy Spirit comes into our hearts, He not only fulfills the law for us but also fulfills it in us. It is not us doing the work, but the Holy Spirit who is working in us, fulfilling and writing the law of love on our hearts.

Glory to God when he helps us overcome our sin (transgression of the law).

Are you thankful for the work of the Holy Spirit helping you to overcome sin (transgression of the law)?

or .... as you state the law/commandments are faulty and the problem is with the law ... if so ... then we can just ignore them (because they are faulty)?

The law is not/was not faulty .... WE ARE!

Sidon · Jun 8, 2021

fhansen said:
No, you need to think about what you're trying to believe and get away from the people who taught you quasi-heresy, and try actually comprehending what you're reading in both the bible and people's posts. I certainly didn't say that the covenants were the same-the new fulfills the old, just as the Spirit accomplishes what the law could not (Rom 8:3-4). And if you understand the basics of the new covenant and God's will for and dealings with man from Genesis through Revelation you'll understand the difference that I wrote about, the full purpose of the cross and the blood.

Let me be clear.
WE are not to try to (as you teach) return to the LAW, as our "obedience", once we are born again.

See, "Christ has delivered us from"""" the CURSE of the Law"" so, only a blank fool is going to try to go back to that CURSE, after they are born again.

Yes, we are to "present our body as a LIVING SACRIFICE">..
But that is not talking about trying to keep law, or commandments, as the way you stay saved.
See, its like this.
The blood of Jesus that SAVED YOU, keeps you saved.
Philippians 1:6
Hebrews 12:2
Once born again, always born again.
"Christ in you THE HOPE of Glory".
There is your salvation.
Your salvation, if you are born again, reader, is JESUS IN YOU.
Jesus is Salvation.
Jesus is Eternal life.
If you have Jesus in you, then you have those.
John 14:6 is TRUE.

fhansen · Jun 9, 2021

Sidon said:
Let me be clear.
WE are not to try to (as you teach) return to the LAW, as our "obedience", once we are born again.

K, I'll clarify even further, again, in unabated hope of correct gospel understanding. We don't return to the law, or even need to hear it, in order to fulfill it.
"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.": Rom 2:13

"Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." Rom 1:8-10

The law is not abolished, not even a jot or tittle. And the fulfillment of the greatest commandments, even the beginnings of that kind of love, transmit no curse, only hope and life. The curse of the law is in that it presents a conundrum, we must fulfill it; God commands nothing that is innately wrong or impossible to do, and yet we cannot fulfill it. So it only ends up revealing sin and condemning us for our inability, proving our lack of any real righteousness. The answer, as per Rom 7, is Jesus Christ, apart from whom we can do nothing-John 15:5, but with whom all things are possible- Matt 19:26. It would be silly to think that God now suddenly requires no personal righteousness from us, because we believe-after all the damage sin has done to our relationship with Him and to each other-and to ourselves. Jesus is the firstborn of a new creation that is meant to follow Him in His justice/righteousness, finally. Forgiveness of sin is only part of that equation.
"...not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith." Phil 3:9

Salvation is all about entering communion with God. That-He-is what makes man just. We don't become just by simply acting justly IOW; that would be silly in light of what we've learned. Rather we become just by God's free gift of grace-of Himself-and then we're to continue to walk in that justice with Him. The reason fallen man has no righteousness is simply because he's apart from its Source. That separated state, itself, is a state of injustice, disorder, chaos, lostness, death. Restoration is meant to begin here in this life, and then continue throughout our lives as we grow in the knowledge and love of God, then finally and fully consummated in the next life-1 Cor 13:12.

Butterball1 · Jun 9, 2021

Sidon said:
If obeying the law makes you righteous, then the Cross is a BIG mistake.

See, It can't be both.
If the law can make you RIGHTEOUS, then God was foolish to come down here and Die on The Cross.

So, is God foolish, or are you wrong?
Better figure that one out.

God declares one to be righteous and the ones He declares righteous are the ones who obey His will, obey His law. If men can live in unrighteousness, disobedience and be lawbreakers yet be saved anyway then the cross of Christ would be meaningless.

pescador · Jun 10, 2021

Butterball1 said:
God declares one to be righteous and the ones He declares righteous are the ones who obey His will, obey His law. If men can live in unrighteousness, disobedience and be lawbreakers yet be saved anyway then the cross of Christ would be meaningless.

God declares righteous those whom He chooses. He is not bound by any rules.

Christ's death was the sacrifice required for all sin for all people, including those who live in unrighteousness, disobedience and are lawbreakers. Nobody is saved by their own righteousness.

Danthemailman · Jun 10, 2021

Sidon said:
If obeying the law makes you righteous, then the Cross is a BIG mistake.

See, It can't be both.
If the law can make you RIGHTEOUS, then God was foolish to come down here and Die on The Cross.

So, is God foolish, or are you wrong?
Better figure that one out.

Amen and well said! :oldthumbsup:

It never ceases to amaze me how certain people seek to establish their own righteousness and remain under the delusion that they will be saved by "imperfect obedience" rather than by faith in Christ. Reminds me of the Israelites in Romans 10:1-4.

Butterball1 · Jun 10, 2021

pescador said:
God declares righteous those whom He chooses. He is not bound by any rules.

Christ's death was the sacrifice required for all sin for all people, including those who live in unrighteousness, disobedience and are lawbreakers. Nobody is saved by their own righteousness.

No verse states God declares men righteous capriciously, unconditionally. I agree no one is saved by doing their OWN righteousness but saved by doing God's righteousness...Romans 10:3 those Jews were lost for they went about doing their OWN righteousness rather than submitting/obeying GOD'S righteousness. Some refuse to make the distinction between doing their OWN righteousness and doing GOD'S righteousness.

Sidon · Jun 10, 2021

fhansen said:
K, I'll clarify even further, again, in unabated hope of correct gospel understanding. We don't return to the law, or even need to hear it, in order to fulfill it.
"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.": Rom 2:13

The reason you quote all your verses out of context, is because you are not familiar with "Justification BY faith, without works".
See, everything you write, which can be said for Clare73, and Bnr32fan, is total, self, effort.
It has nothing to do with Salvation.

Salvation is not you keeping Law, but its God making you righteous, based only on the BLood of Jesus.

The Law, is a curse to you.
If you try to keep it, so that God will be pleased with you, after Jesus has redeemed us from the curse of the Law, then you are insulting the Cross, and Denying God's Grace.

Sidon · Jun 10, 2021

Butterball1 said:
God declares one to be righteous and the ones He declares righteous are the ones who obey His will, obey His law.

Never.

God never redeems because you keep the law, or the commandments, or the Torah, or the Book of Enoch, or the Epistle of Mary Magdalene.

Listen carefully.
God only accepts you, based on THE shed blood of GOD making you "the righteousness of God, In Christ".
That is Jesus's blood.
THIS BLOOD ATONEMENT< is the ONLY Reconciliation you are offered by God, to become His Son.

John 14:6

Butterball1 · Jun 10, 2021

Sidon said:
Never.

God never redeems because you keep the law, or the commandments, or the Torah, or the Book of Enoch, or the Epistle of Mary Magdalene.o righteousness" Romans 6:16.

Listen carefully.
God only accepts you, based on THE shed blood of GOD making you "the righteousness of God, In Christ".
That is Jesus's blood.
THIS BLOOD ATONEMENT< is the ONLY Reconciliation you are offered by God, to become His Son.

John 14:6

God does not declare those who continue to live in unrighteousness as righteous....as long as one continues to not do righteousness, one continues to not be of God, 1 John 3:10. Those who worketh righteousness are accepted with God, Acts of the Apostles 10:35....."obedience unto righteousness" Romans 6:16. Not a single example in the Bible of God making those living in unrighteousness, in disobedience to His will as righteous for one must FIRST obey God, THEN God makes one righteous

pescador · Jun 10, 2021

Butterball1 said:
No verse states God declares men righteous capriciously, unconditionally. I agree no one is saved by doing their OWN righteousness but saved by doing God's righteousness...Romans 10:3 those Jews were lost for they went about doing their OWN righteousness rather than submitting/obeying GOD'S righteousness. Some refuse to make the distinction between doing their OWN righteousness and doing GOD'S righteousness.

Of course no verse states God declares men righteous capriciously, unconditionally. God is ... God. It makes to sense to apply human values to God, one way or the other.

Since I don't go along with taking single verses out of context to prove anything -- after all, chapters and verses are not found in the earliest documents -- here is the section in Romans 10 that you allude to...

Romans 10:1-4, "Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God on behalf of my fellow Israelites is for their salvation. For I can testify that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not in line with the truth. For ignoring the righteousness that comes from God, and seeking instead to establish their own righteousness, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law, with the result that there is righteousness for everyone who believes."

pescador · Jun 10, 2021

Butterball1 said:
God does not declare those who continue to live in unrighteousness as righteous....as long as one continues to not do righteousness, one continues to not be of God, 1 John 3:10. Those who worketh righteousness are accepted with God, Acts of the Apostles 10:35....."obedience unto righteousness" Romans 6:16. Not a single example in the Bible of God making those living in unrighteousness, in disobedience to His will as righteous for one must FIRST obey God, THEN God makes one righteous

I don't know where you get the idea that one must FIRST obey God, THEN God makes one righteous. God is sovereign! God makes righteous whomever He chooses.

John 3:16-18, "For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes [not obeys] in him will not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world should be saved through him. The one who believes in him is not condemned. The one who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

There is nothing here about obedience! It's all about belief.

Sidon · Jun 10, 2021

--------

Sidon · Jun 10, 2021

Butterball1 said:
Those who worketh righteousness are accepted with God,

Never.

God only accepts His own Blood, as Jesus's Blood to apply to someone, that causes them to be "made righteous".
This is the : Blood Atonement.
This is John 14:6

So, if you try to earn God's righteousness by self effort God wont have you.
God did not come down here to die on The Cross, to then accept you for any other reason.

All "works" verses, have to be understood in the LIGHT of the Cross.

Listen carefully.
All the righteous works , or the trying to "work righteousness", is a person trying to live holy.
Well, you are already a SINNER.
So trying to living holy, as a SINNER, and not being born again, is the story of most people who are religious, and know all about Christ and live in Church, and take the Sacraments, and give to the poor, and die and go to hell.

Hell is full of church going religious people.
FULL.

Because All that is USELESS, as it can't MAKE YOU RIGHTEOUS, and you have to be the equal righteousness of GOD HIMSELF to live where He exists.

To be with GOD after you die, you have to be made as righteous as God on this earth, before you die.

= "born again".

You can only go to a SINLESS HEAVEN by being made RIGHTEOUS by the Blood of Jesus.

The blood of Jesus, is what God uses to make you RIGHTEOUS.

Nothing else does God offer.

Jesus said.>"you MUST be born again".

dóxatotheó · Jun 10, 2021

Butterball1 said:
God does not declare those who continue to live in unrighteousness as righteous.

Read 1 John 1 those who are in God wouldn't have pleasure in unrighteousness.

Butterball1 said:
Those who worketh righteousness are accepted with God

What never the bible is very clear on that Romans 9 and Ephesians 2 you don't work for grace, works are apart of faith not an importance for salvation each Christian is the workmanship of Christ they produce those works in grace not outside it meaning that the importance is faith and the effect is works.

Butterball1 said:
Not a single example in the Bible of God making those living in unrighteousness

Because the bible is clear that Christians don't have pleasure in unrighteousness.

Butterball1 said:
n disobedience to His will as righteous for one must FIRST obey God, THEN God makes one righteous

This is literally unbiblical let me quote a verse for you. It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. ... being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness." Romans 4 read it for yourself it's an amazing chapter

klutedavid · Jun 10, 2021

SabbathBlessings said:
God's laws and God's grace are not at odds with each other. We are not saved by God's laws, we are 100% saved by God's grace, His gift to give or not. We are judged though by our actions. Two different things.

Christians are not judged for their sins.

Christians are forgiven of all their sin.

John 3:18
He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Hebrews 8:12
For I will be merciful to their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more.

Hebrews 9:28
So Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

2 Thessalonians 2:12
In order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

Sidon · Jun 10, 2021

klutedavid said:
Christians are not judged for their sins.

Christians are forgiven of all their sin.
2 Thessalonians 2:12
In order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

Yes.

And notice.....= JUDGED: >"who did not believe the Truth".

Notice it does not say that people will be judged by God in eternity, for the SINS.
The reason is, the only effect that sins have on you, is that they separate you from God, and you die in them.
John 8:24

See..... in Eternity, after you die, if you are an unbeliever, you are JUDGED for : "not believing the TRUTH."

This is highlighted in 2nd Thessalonians when Paul wrote..>"in Flaming FIRE taking vengeance on all those who do not OBEY the Gospel".
Well, that is talking about Jesus coming back as the 2nd Advent.
And how do you "obey the Gospel"?
You obey it by this verse..>"and what is the WORK of GOD.......not your work, but His.... Its this.. "that you BELIEVE ON JESUS, WHOM GOD SENT"..
See that "work"?
That is the real work, vs, legalists ranting about keeping the law., etc.

Now here is some. ATOMIC CLARITY, for those who can discern.
That "Obey the TRUTH" verse is saying this......= Jesus said, "i am the way the TRUTH, and the LIFE">
John 14:6

So, JESUS HIMSELF, is not just Eternal life, and ""THE RESURRECTION"".... but but He is THE TRUTH.
THE.
THE.
Not one of...
But THE ONLY.....Truth.
Truth Exists because God exists. Jesus is God.

SO, TO NOT BELIEVE THE TRUTH. IS WHY YOU ARE JUDGED BY GOD, AFTER YOU DIE.

To not Believe THE Truth, who IS JESUS< is to die an unbeliever, regarding the TRUTH.
This simply means you died as a CHRIST REJECTOR, as that is how you "do not BELIEVE THE TRUTH".
Jesus is THE Truth.

This is the SIN, that Gets you judged in Eternity.
The only one.
This is the unpardonable sin. Its the sin of Rejecting JESUS. Its the sin the Hebrew Christ Rejectors were being warned by Paul not to commit, in Hebrews 10 and in Acts 28.
See, When you reject Jesus, you have '"not believed the truth", and when you do that, then God can't Wash your sin away in Christ's eternal BLOOD., and make you "the Righteousness of God in Christ".
This means that Jesus does not pay for them on earth on The Cross,... so you pay for the one sin of Christ Rejection, that is the unpardonable sin....after you die.
That is why you go to hell, or not.
That is why thousands went to hell today.
Hell is the home of the CHRIST REJECTOR who "did not believe the Truth." and was not "born again".

Jesus is THE Truth.

SabbathBlessings · Jun 10, 2021

klutedavid said:
2 Thessalonians 2:12
In order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

What do you think this verse means? All the verses you quoted are conditional. If you believe in Jesus you will believe Him when He says If you love Me, keep My commandments. John 14:15 and Jesus said He did not come to destroy God’s laws Mathew 5:17-20. If you think lawlessness is righteous and will secure your place in Heaven you might also want to consider this verse Revelations 22:15. We show love to our Savior though obedience, not disobedience. 1 John 5:3, John 15:10. Just like when we honor our parents, disobeying shows a lack of respect.

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Ecclesiastes 12:13

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