Question for people who reject intercessory with Saints

prodromos · Jun 4, 2021

bbbbbbb said:
There is a far greater body of “evidence” that the Buddha and his disciples (boddhvistas) hear and answer prayers. Does that mean that we should pray to them too?

What evidence would that be?

prodromos · Jun 4, 2021

bbbbbbb said:
Your saints certainly are not human. They are omnipresent, hearing prayers offered to them anywhere and everywhere. No human is omnipresent. They are omniscient, hearing and understanding thousands of prayers offered to them simultaneously. No human can do that. They are demi-gods, having some divine attributes but not the full panoply that form God.

Thae Apostle Peter's shadow apparently healed people. Does that make Peter a demi-god? That Saints can hear the prayers of many people is by the grace of God. Anything they are capable of is by God's grace and nothing else. They are no more demi-gods than you or I.

dóxatotheó · Jun 4, 2021

prodromos said:
Thae Apostle Peter's shadow apparently healed people. Does that make Peter a demi-god? That Saints can hear the prayers of many people is by the grace of God. Anything they are capable of is by God's grace and nothing else. They are no more demi-gods than you or I.

I told him that multiple times and he continued to attack i guess some people just don't like intercession.

pescador · Jun 5, 2021

dóxatotheó said:
Ad hom attack I already stated they don't hear or answer prayers it's God doing the intercession they are merely doing the exact same intercession as we do. Also, they arent mortal completely different from us.

Nobody said they hear prayers they receive them and state the exact prayers we have for God and speak them to Father God or Jesus with the Holy Spirit as only the Holy Spirit intercedes for us.

Another Ad hom attack already stated they aren't divine nor have divine attributes actually defend a position instead attack mines and already stated Gods the one hearing the prayers they are INTERCEDING CAUSE GOD WILLED IT!!!!. They only can pray for us because the Holy Spirit intercedes for them as the same as they intercede for us.

I'll reply to only part of this post...

You wrote, "Nobody said they hear prayers they receive them and state the exact prayers we have for God and speak them to Father God or Jesus with the Holy Spirit as only the Holy Spirit intercedes for us."

So "Father God or Jesus" can't hear our prayers directly? That turns millennia of devout people praying directly to God into fools!

How do you come up with something like this?

dóxatotheó · Jun 5, 2021

pescador said:
So "Father God or Jesus" can't hear our prayers directly?

So when you intercede for someone you think it means God can't hear prayers directly and secondly the whole purpose of intercession is the act of praying for someone for they behalfs you completely misconstrued what i said. You probably dk what intercession actually mean The Bible is clear that all Christians are called to be intercessors. All Christians have the Holy Spirit in their hearts and, just as He intercedes for us in accordance with God’s will (Romans 8:26-27), we are to intercede for one another. Thats the belief we believe the saints in heaven intercede in our behalf according to Gods will and its funny that you didn't respond to the original thread, it seems quite quarrelsome to even do that.

pescador · Jun 5, 2021

dóxatotheó said:
So when you intercede for someone you think it means God can't hear prayers directly and secondly the whole purpose of intercession is the act of praying for someone for they behalfs you completely misconstrued what i said. You probably dk what intercession actually mean The Bible is clear that all Christians are called to be intercessors. All Christians have the Holy Spirit in their hearts and, just as He intercedes for us in accordance with God’s will (Romans 8:26-27), we are to intercede for one another. Thats the belief we believe the saints in heaven intercede in our behalf according to Gods will and its funny that you didn't respond to the original thread, it seems quite quarrelsome to even do that.

You go ahead and continue to pray to whomever you want. I pray to my Father in heaven, not some intermediary.

When Jesus taught His disciples to pray why did he instruct them to say "Our Father in heaven, may your name be honored, may your kingdom come, may your will be done on earth as it is in heaven"? He didn't say to pray to some intermediary. Do you really think that God can't or won't hear the prayers of His children? Really?

dóxatotheó · Jun 5, 2021

pescador said:
You go ahead and continue to pray to whomever you want. I pray to my Father in heaven, not some intermediary.

I pray the Triune God not the saints all intercessory prayers end with God or in reference to God it seems you dont even know an intercessory prayer is aswell.

pescador said:
When Jesus taught His disciples to pray why did he instruct them to say "Our Father in heaven, may your name be honored, may your kingdom come, may your will be done on earth as it is in heaven"? He didn't say to pray to some intermediary.

We don't pray to saints and thats funny so now Paul is a heretic for saying we should pray for eachother 1 Timothy 2:1-4 and Ephesians 6.

pescador said:
Do you really think that God can't or won't hear the prayers of His children? Really?

Imma ask you again so you think mortal intercession God doesn't hear our prayers because the same way apply if you use that argument because its obvious you dk what intercession is I never once state God couldn't hear prayers thats an assertion not fact you dont even know my position i can see.

pescador · Jun 5, 2021

dóxatotheó said:
I pray the Triune God not the saints all intercessory prayers end with God or in reference to God it seems you dont even know an intercessory prayer is aswell.

We don't pray to saints and thats funny so now Paul is a heretic for saying we should pray for eachother 1 Timothy 2:1-4 and Ephesians 6.

Imma ask you again so you think mortal intercession God doesn't hear our prayers because the same way apply if you use that argument because its obvious you dk what intercession is I never once state God couldn't hear prayers thats an assertion not fact you dont even know my position i can see.

I pray to God, as instructed by the Bible. Intercession is praying on behalf of others, nothing more, nothing less. I can pray to God directly on behalf of someone else; I don't need a "saint" -- all Christians are saints -- to be an intermediary.

You can go ahead and pray to people instead of to God if that's what you want. Are you afraid of asking God directly? If so, please say why.

dóxatotheó · Jun 5, 2021

pescador said:
I pray to God, as instructed by the Bible. Intercession is praying on behalf of others, nothing more, nothing less. I can pray to God directly on behalf of someone else; I don't need a "saint" -- all Christians are saints -- to be an intermediary.

We see saints as Christians who are in the presence of God of course all Christians are saints nobody disagrees lol. I pray to God directly how many times i gotta say we pray to God not the saints they only intercede for us.

pescador said:
You can go ahead and pray to people instead of to God

Stop strawmaning my position I clearly don't hold to that make better arguments because I already refuted that multiple times. We pray to God only not saints they intercede for us as the same I intercede for you all intercessory prayers are directed towards God not the saints we bring up the saints to intercede for us but we still direct the prayers towards God by the grace of God they intercede for us they arent gods.

pescador said:
Are you afraid of asking God directly? If so, please say why.

Anybody who believes intercessory prayer would tell you they pray directly towards God they only ask for intercession if they need help in regards to sins etc. as the same way i would ask for your intercession for my struggles there is no difference they all end with direction to God not the saints so all intercessory prayers are towards God not the saints.

JulieB67 · Jun 10, 2021

disciple Clint said:
which are the prayers of the saints.

These are prayers "of" the saints, not to the saints.

dóxatotheó said:
Thats the belief we believe the saints in heaven intercede in our behalf according to Gods will and its funny that you didn't respond to the original thread, it seems quite quarrelsome to even do that.

The veil was rent from top to bottom so one can go directly to our Father in prayer. And yes, on this earth we can pray "for" one another but we certainly do not pray "to" one another and that's kind of what you're suggesting we do. How else would you talk to someone who has passed on?

dóxatotheó said:
they only ask for intercession if they need help in regards to sins etc

Why wouldn't you go directly to the Father if you need help in regards to sin, etc?

pescador · Jun 10, 2021

dóxatotheó said:
We see saints as Christians who are in the presence of God of course all Christians are saints nobody disagrees lol. I pray to God directly how many times i gotta say we pray to God not the saints they only intercede for us.

Stop strawmaning my position I clearly don't hold to that make better arguments because I already refuted that multiple times. We pray to God only not saints they intercede for us as the same I intercede for you all intercessory prayers are directed towards God not the saints we bring up the saints to intercede for us but we still direct the prayers towards God by the grace of God they intercede for us they arent gods.

Anybody who believes intercessory prayer would tell you they pray directly towards God they only ask for intercession if they need help in regards to sins etc. as the same way i would ask for your intercession for my struggles there is no difference they all end with direction to God not the saints so all intercessory prayers are towards God not the saints.

There is a vast difference between my praying for someone and asking somebody -- a saint according to you even though we're all saints -- to intercede for someone else. Why do you ask a "saint" to intercede? Is God hard of hearing? Does the prayer by your "saints" have more influence with God than if it's done by others?

dóxatotheó · Jun 10, 2021

JulieB67 said:
These are prayers "of" the saints, not to the saints.

Yes meaning we ask the saints to intercede for us not asking the saints to do something for us.

JulieB67 said:
The veil was rent from top to bottom so one can go directly to our Father in prayer.

I never said you don't have to pray directly to the Father.

JulieB67 said:
And yes, on this earth we can pray "for" one another but we certainly do not pray "to" one another and what's kind of what you're suggesting we do.

Strawman I made it multiply clear that Intercession isn't a prayer directly to the saints its a prayer with saints towards the Father. The same way you would say "Father may you help so and so since he is truly struggling", we aren't telling the saints to forgive our sins or telling them to hear our sins all that is towards the Father.
Both acts seem to be based on similar principles of charity and intercessory prayer. Idolatry would only occur if one believed that a saint or angel would give you something that our Lord would not (as if praying to an alternate God); but authentic prayers to the angels and saints are no more than requests made to them to pray for us to Him.

JulieB67 said:
How else would you talk to someone who has passed on?

Anything in the Body of Christ and the Will of God, its possible.
(Eph 6:18; 1 Thess 3:11-13; 1 Tim 2:1-4), and the Church on earth and in heaven are evidently united in some way in Christ (Heb 12:22-24).

JulieB67 said:
Why wouldn't you go directly to the Father if you need help in regards to sin, etc?

1 Timothy 2:1-5 those 5 verses explain why.
Indeed, the Scriptures tell us over and over that in heaven we shall "see" God with our mind and heart, and contemplate God with the eyes of the soul (so to speak) in a new and glorious way: "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God" (Mt 5:8); "Now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face" (1 Cor 13:12); "We shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as he is" (1 Jn 3:2).
Think of it this way: to see God "as He is," "face to face," and to "contemplate" God in all his heavenly glory must be an indescribable experience, but it is the wonderful destiny He has in store for all of us who love and trust Him. We cannot fully understand what that means, from this side of heaven. But we know one thing for sure: to see and know and contemplate God in heaven must include to see and know and contemplate all that God loves - for how could you really see and know God "as He is" without seeing everything He loves, and without seeing how He loves everything? For "God is love" (1 Jn 4:8). And one of the things God loves best of all is human beings, the creatures He made in his own image, and for whom He gave His life on the Cross. The saints in heaven, therefore, must surely see and know all about us on earth, because they see us reflected in the mind and heart of the God who loves us, whom they behold face to face. The saints in heaven know us because they know all about God's love for us.
Most of the saints started out like the rest of us — but they have finished the course in faithfulness. Therefore, we know that they do not possess any power within themselves to answer our prayers. In fact, every prayer to a saint really goes to the Person behind the saint: Christ Jesus. Just as you may hear about people venerating icons, but they are not worshiping a piece of wood with a painting on it. Rather they are attributing honor to the person in the image, and even more so to the Divine Person who has illuminated that saint.

dóxatotheó · Jun 10, 2021

pescador said:
There is a vast difference between my praying for someone and asking somebody -- a saint according to you even though we're all saints -- to intercede for someone else.

Living and dead is the only difference.

pescador said:
Why do you ask a "saint" to intercede?

Saints help with our spiritual journey. In regards to praying to saints, it is one of the most difficult things for Protestant Christians to understand. I wrestled with it for a while. In old English, the word “pray” simply meant to ask or implore someone for something.
In modern English, the word has come to mean “to ask God for something.” So, when we mention “praying to the saints” it seems horrible because we’ve been trained that the word should only be used in regards to praying to the god of whatever religion one adheres. But that is not a full or accurate understanding of the word “pray.”
Additionally, prayer is more than simply asking for something, as you are finding through practicing the Jesus Prayer. It is communing, that is, connecting with the Divine in a deep way…establishing a heart to heart connection.

pescador said:
Is God hard of hearing?

1 Timothy 2:1-4 and by the will of God they can intercede for us so without God they can't so we cannot intercede with the saints without God. Meaning hes hearing the prayers we do and why we reference him in every one we state God in every intercessory prayer so we understand that the prayers are directed to the Holy One and not the saints in heaven. But we know through the wisdom and experience of countless generations of Christians that there is power in praying for one another. For this reason, we ask the saints to pray for us.
It is the Church’s belief that these saints are not sitting around idly or goofing off, rather they are interceding for us. In other words, the Church is fully alive. Those who lived before us on earth are still alive in Paradise and they are now pursuing communion and prayer with Christ on our behalf.
Most of the saints started out like the rest of us — but they have finished the course in faithfulness. Therefore, we know that they do not possess any power within themselves to answer our prayers. In fact, every prayer to a saint really goes to the Person behind the saint: Christ Jesus. Just as you may hear about people venerating icons, but they are not worshiping a piece of wood with a painting on it. Rather they are attributing honor to the person in the image, and even more so to the Divine Person who has illuminated that saint.

pescador said:
Does the prayer by your "saints" have more influence with God than if it's done by others?

No what make you come to that conclusion intercession is permitted by God meaning the prayers are directed towards him. What don't you understand by The Will of God they intercede for us meaning that God gets all the prayers but by the will of God they intercede for us you don't have to intercede with the saints we only do it to please God 1 Timothy 2:1-4 as he commanded intercession. So yes all Orthodox Christians pray directly to God with every prayer even the saints prayers are directed towards God your welcome that I answered your confusing weird views on intercession.

pescador · Jun 10, 2021

I still don't understand. All believers are saints; all believers are in Christ; all believers are God's children. If I want to ask something of God, guess whom I go to... GOD! Why would I conceivably ask someone other than God?

Do you think that Catholic "saints" have some greater input to God's will, that somehow or other God favors only some of His children? I find that hard to believe, but also contrary to Scripture!

Would you explain this: "What don't you understand by The Will of God they intercede for us meaning that God gets all the prayers but by the will of God they intercede for us you don't have to intercede with the saints we only do it to please God"? You pray to the "saints" to please God?

Can you give an example of this intercession by your "saints" (even though we're all saints)?

pescador · Jun 10, 2021

I looked this up about "saints"...

They were believed to be men and women of “heroic virtue” who after their deaths held a privileged place with God in heaven. Because of this, saints were considered to be spiritual guides and mentors, who would add their prayers in heaven to those offered by Christians still living in the material world.

Since I am a Protestant, I consider this to be extra-Biblical. To me, if it's not in the Bible it's a human invention, therefore not meaningful.

I was also told by a former Catholic that it's clearly extra-Biblical ancestor worship.

Sola scriptura.

dóxatotheó · Jun 10, 2021

pescador said:
I still don't understand. All believers are saints; all believers are in Christ; all believers are God's children. If I want to ask something of God, guess whom I go to... GOD! Why would I conceivably ask someone other than God?

You can have a personal opinion this is a defense of Intercessory of Saints not a personal opinion on saints. I merely defending something I believe thats in my catechism while you believe something thats in yours.

pescador said:
Do you think that Catholic "saints" have some greater input to God's will, that somehow or other God favors only some of His children? I find that hard to believe, but also contrary to Scripture!

Not Catholic and no we never once state our Saints are greater than us on Earth. The thread i responded to you about literally explained that.

pescador said:
You pray to the "saints" to please God?

We don't pray to saints common strawman the prayers are directed towards God with invocation of the saints in it jeez that was responded to the girl.

pescador said:
Can you give an example of this intercession by your "saints" (even though we're all saints)?

O Lord, save Thy people, and bless Thine inheritance, granting
to Thy people victory over all their adversaries, and by the power
of Thy Cross preserve Thine estate.
It is truly meet to bless thee, O Theotokos, who art ever blessed
and all blameless and the Mother of our God. More honorable
than the Cherubim and more glorious beyond compare than the
Seraphim, thou who without stain barest God the Word, and art
truly Theotokos, we magnify thee.
Glory…; both now…
Lord have mercy. 3x
O Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, through the intercessions
of Thine immaculate Mother, of Saint N. (your patron Saint), and
of all Thy Saints, have mercy on us and save us, for Thou art a
merciful God, and lovest mankind. Amen.
I presume you understand what they are now.
O angel of Christ I nevermore anger God by any sin. Pray for
me to the Lord!!!!!!! that He will make me worthy of the grace of the
all-holy Trinity, Amen.
These are prayer examples IG you understand now.

dóxatotheó · Jun 10, 2021

pescador said:
They were believed to be men and women of “heroic virtue” who after their deaths held a privileged place with God in heaven. Because of this, saints were considered to be spiritual guides and mentors, who would add their prayers in heaven to those offered by Christians still living in the material world.

all Christians can be called saints, as long as they received the Holy Spirit through Holy Chrism and were baptized in the name of the Holy Trinity. In this way, each Orthodox Christian has become “sanctified” or made holy, through these gifts. This was especially true in the early days of the church when the word “Saint” actually meant “Believer”. However, in today’s terminology, saints are different from every day folk because the church has made a special effort to honor them.

Types of Saints
However, the Orthodox Church has gotten away from calling all Christians saints. This term is largely reserved for a select group of people who led exceptionally holy lives. Here are the categories as to the types of saints that can be found in the Greek Orthodox Church:

Apostles

These individuals are mentioned in the Holy Bible and were the first to spread the news about Jesus Christ. The term “apostle” and “disciple” are used interchangeably. However, Judas isn’t really considered an Apostle since he is the one who betrayed Jesus.

Prophets

Some of the saints were considered prophets. One of the best examples of a saint who was a prophet was John the Baptist because he preached to crowds about Christ’s true identity of being the Son of God.

Martyrs

These are people who valiantly lost their lives because they were Christians. Saint Catherine, for example, is considered a Holy Martyr because she died because of her faith.

Church Fathers

Church Fathers came about in the early days of the church. They are known for being exceptionally wise and devout and their teachings are still adhered to today. Saint John Climacus, who wrote The Ladder of Divine Ascent, is an example of a church father.

Monastics

These are saints who lived their lives in solitude in order to live holy lives and contemplate the existence of God. Many of them wrote, prophesied, and prayed diligently. They’re a model example of true holiness.

Just

All other saints are called “the Just” because, even though they weren’t martyrs, monastics, or church fathers, they lived exceptionally holy lives.

By studying whom the saints were, Orthodox Christians can better understand what it truly means to be holy. Their lives are also an integral part of the history of the Orthodox Christian Church.

pescador said:
Since I am a Protestant, I consider this to be extra-Biblical. To me, if it's not in the Bible it's a human invention, therefore not meaningful.

Human invention would be created and not historic correct.

pescador said:
I was also told by a former Catholic that it's clearly extra-Biblical ancestor worship.

Nobody appeals to the Church Fathers for there beliefs but rather wat they all accepted as tradition during the Great Comission. Multiple Church Fathers were disciples of the Apostles so if that was a real RCC he would at least know that.

pescador said:
Sola scriptura.

The Bible does not teach Sola Scriptura, but it does teach the importance of the oral tradition which is not written down. Scripture also teaches the authority of the Church. Also, you believe solo scriptura not sola scriptura.

pescador · Jun 10, 2021

dóxatotheó said:
You can have a personal opinion this is a defense of Intercessory of Saints not a personal opinion on saints. I merely defending something I believe thats in my catechism while you believe something thats in yours.

Not Catholic and no we never once state our Saints are greater than us on Earth. The thread i responded to you about literally explained that.

We don't pray to saints common strawman the prayers are directed towards God with invocation of the saints in it jeez that was responded to the girl.

O Lord, save Thy people, and bless Thine inheritance, granting
to Thy people victory over all their adversaries, and by the power
of Thy Cross preserve Thine estate.
It is truly meet to bless thee, O Theotokos, who art ever blessed
and all blameless and the Mother of our God. More honorable
than the Cherubim and more glorious beyond compare than the
Seraphim, thou who without stain barest God the Word, and art
truly Theotokos, we magnify thee.
Glory…; both now…
Lord have mercy. 3x
O Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, through the intercessions
of Thine immaculate Mother, of Saint N. (your patron Saint), and
of all Thy Saints, have mercy on us and save us, for Thou art a
merciful God, and lovest mankind. Amen.
I presume you understand what they are now.
O angel of Christ I nevermore anger God by any sin. Pray for
me to the Lord!!!!!!! that He will make me worthy of the grace of the
all-holy Trinity, Amen.
These are prayer examples IG you understand now.

How about this...

Dear God, thank you for all the blessings you give to us, your children. We know there is no favoritism with you, as your Word says ...

"Masters, treat your slaves the same way, giving up the use of threats, because you know that both you and they have the same master in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him." Ephesians 6:9

... and that all your children are equally precious in Your sight.

instead of this...

O Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, through the intercessions
of Thine immaculate Mother, of Saint N. (your patron Saint), and
of all Thy Saints, have mercy on us and save us, for Thou art a
merciful God, and lovest mankind. Amen.

... which is clearly not directed to God the Father. Nor should we be asking God to "save us", since we're already completely saved by Christ's sacrifice.

When Jesus taught His disciples to pray, He began with "Our Father in heaven". His teaching is quite clear; nowhere does He tell us to pray to intermediaries.

Sola Scriptura

dóxatotheó · Jun 10, 2021

pescador said:
Dear God, thank you for all the blessings you give to us, your children. We know there is no favoritism with you, as your Word says ...

I already addressed that we are all equal and all are saints. The names we give to specific saints are in regards on wat they are as Christians please stop misconstruing everything I say that only causes quarrels.

pescador said:
"Masters, treat your slaves the same way, giving up the use of threats, because you know that both you and they have the same master in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him." Ephesians 6:9

I literally agree

pescador said:
and that all your children are equally precious in Your sight.

Still agree

pescador said:

O Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, through the intercessions
of Thine immaculate Mother, of Saint N. (your patron Saint), and
of all Thy Saints, have mercy on us and save us, for Thou art a
merciful God, and lovest mankind. Amen.

... which is clearly not directed to God the Father. Nor should we be asking God to "save us", since we're already completely saved by Christ's sacrifice.

Click to expand...

What is wrong with asking God to save us and it is obvious directed to God because the prayer is towards the Lord not the saint. Also, patron saint means a saint you was confirmed with.

pescador said:

When Jesus taught His disciples to pray, He began with "Our Father in heaven". His teaching is quite clear; nowhere does He tell us to pray to intermediaries.

Click to expand...

The prayers I literally sent was towards the Lord not towards the saints are you really only reading the bottom half of the prayer and that prayer Jesus was teaching towards his disciples was showing you should only pray to God which I agree with.

JulieB67 · Jun 10, 2021

dóxatotheó said:
1 Timothy 2:1-5 those 5 verses explain why.

They don't explain what I asked you. I said, why not go directly to our Father if you need help with sin, etc? Christ told us that's who we go to in prayer. He taught us how to pray. To add anything else would be adding to the scriptures. You said Protestant Christians don't understand. I'm a non denominational Christian that holds to the scriptures- the Word, nothing added by man, etc. Men's traditions make void the true word of God.

dóxatotheó said:
In fact, every prayer to a saint really goes to the Person behind the saint: Christ Jesus

Then what's the point of praying to a saint?

Question for people who reject intercessory with Saints

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