Is the magical content in LOTR problematic?

ViaCrucis

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Practitioners of divination, conjuration etc are witches.

Those practices were part of the pagan world, and hence were condemned. Not because such diviners, necromancers, etc actually had any power.

Magic does not exist.

To believe that "witches" in the sense of people who have made pacts with Satan in exchange for power, those don't exist. That is superstition, and has no business in the Christian Church. That is heresy.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Eftsoon

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Those practices were part of the pagan world, and hence were condemned. Not because such diviners, necromancers, etc actually had any power.

Magic does not exist.

To believe that "witches" in the sense of people who have made pacts with Satan in exchange for power, those don't exist. That is superstition, and has no business in the Christian Church. That is heresy.

-CryptoLutheran


Of course the church probably invented a conspiracy there. I wasn't referring to the witches of the inquisition in particular. I was referring to people using supernatural power outside of Divine providence and grace. Whether Shaman, Wiccan or Luciferian, they are classified as witches - people who work with magic.

The characters of Middle Earth are engaged in practices which are part of the pagan systems of witchcraft. Not explicitly, but there is clear derivation there.
 
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Eftsoon

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What connections to the real world? We can connect some of what Tolkien wrote about to mythology but what occultic practices occurred in Tolkien's time that he directly incorporated into the book?

Specific occult practices and specific Middle Earth references please.

From what I can see Druidism is probably a source drawn on heavily. Druidic magic is very subtle. It seems to be more about hearing and channeling preexistent forces. There is a close connection with nature and an emphasis on spells incantations and transformation. There are loads of examples of this in LOTR

Beorn - Shapeshifter -Possibly connected to Berserkers who were warrior shamans with totem animals

Dwarves - Scribing with moon stones - Runic magic

Orthanc - Supernatural tower - Imbued with 'wizardry' Men are responsible for this.

The accounts of magic within Celtic literature read like passages from LOTR. The lineage is there to see. I think that this connection is cause for concern. Remember that mythology was not imaginary to the Celtics. These myths were far more than make believe.

There is also the distinction between black and white magic which emerges from LOTR.

I think the primary issue is that while we can have a fairly involved discussion and make some fine distinctions, most readers will not do so. To most people LOTR is taking ideas and practices from witchcraft. This alone is a bad situation.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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From what I can see Druidism is probably a source drawn on heavily. Druidic magic is very subtle. It seems to be more about hearing and channeling preexistent forces. There is a close connection with nature and an emphasis on spells incantations and transformation. There are loads of examples of this in LOTR

Beorn - Shapeshifter -Possibly connected to Berserkers who were warrior shamans with totem animals

Dwarves - Scribing with moon stones - Runic magic

Orthanc - Supernatural tower - Imbued with 'wizardry' Men are responsible for this.

The accounts of magic within Celtic literature read like passages from LOTR. The lineage is there to see. I think that this connection is cause for concern. Remember that mythology was not imaginary to the Celtics. These myths were far more than make believe.

There is also the distinction between black and white magic which emerges from LOTR.

I think the primary issue is that while we can have a fairly involved discussion and make some fine distinctions, most readers will not do so. To most people LOTR is taking ideas and practices from witchcraft. This alone is a bad situation.

So the dwarves within LOTR are worshipping Satan when they draw runes?

Do you know that Tolkien was a Catholic? A devout one at that.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Satan? What?
Runes are inherently evil right? And we can't separate our world from middle earth right? The dwarves of Middle earth using runes would thereby implicate them in the worship or veneration of supernatural entities aside from God right? Let's take your interpretation to it's logical extreme.

It might therefore follow that Gimli and the rest of the dwarves worship the Nordic or Scandinavian pantheon and in Tolkien depicting the Gimli as good, he is trying to encourage sympathy towards Scandinavian Pagans and their beliefs.

Is this an unreasonable interpretation of Tolkien?
 
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zoidar

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I am aware that LOTR is not meant to be read as a manifesto or guide to living. i am aware that the Inklings had their own theology of the imagination which drew on Romanticism. Tolkien saw himself as a sub-creator. He saw himself as an image-bearer creating something entirely novel. I get that LOTR is not allegory, it is something entirely new participating in the existing world. It is another divine creative act mediated through his imagination.

While this is indeed fascinating, LOTR is still a story about witches, warlocks and the occult. It sounds blinkered and short sighted, but the impressive intellectual arguments have this effect. Ultimately Tolkien has taken something wholly forbidden by God i.e. magic/withcraft and made it a central aspect of his mythos.

Yes, only the magical creatures use magic, but the humans and hobbits etc participate in their world, seek their counsel, use their artefacts and wonder at their power. The humanoids make ample use of magic - they might not tap into it directly , but the occult in the real world is a vast and multi-faceted thing. It encompasses everything from necromancy to divining and crystal healing. I'm afraid that the LOTR present a world steeped in magic recognisable as such.

The argument might be that in real terms, the occult involves some kind of demonic involvement. There are no demons in LOTR, thus no foul. This isn't the case. Nowhere in scripture is this stated. We don't know why the occult is spoken against. It just is. We are called to be obedient and avoid it. Investing our imagination and fantasy in a world steeped in it is probably inadvisable. How will this condition your response to the occult when you encounter it in real life?

The genesis and creation of LOTR is a little troubling truth be told. Tolkien is quite clear that this is not just idle fancy. It is a world that might one day come into being. There is also in us an act of secondary creation in which we recreate Tolkien's world. We are not passive spectators. We become active participants.

The most potent argument is something like 'Tolkien's magic isn't really magic at all. It has no real world analogue. It is a property of Middle Earth'.
The trappings are all there. The essence and motivations of witchcraft and the occult are there. It is just transposed into a new environment.The prohibition still stands.


Our sub-created worlds cannot violate the laws established by God. In as much as they do this, they cease to be participative acts and the whole system that the inklings established breaks down completely. Is this subcreation or usurpation?

Please discuss. I'm not 100% decided on this. I'm totally open to changing my mind on the subject so I'm happy to argue this one out to the bitter end!!

I don't see much difference between reading LOTR than reading other fantasy books. Could they be read? Yes! Are they good for us? Like most things of the world, we shouldn't have our heart in them.

Watch over your heart with all diligence,
For from it flow the springs of life.
— Proverbs 4:23
 
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sawdust

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This is an that has given me pause. I referred to it in my OP. It is a very strong argument yes.

I don't think your biblical example is quite relevant because it is a unique and isolated event used by God for a specific purpose.

It is very hard to define the occult n the real world.There is no satisfactory definition for it. All we can do is look at the origins of practices we know to be forbidden and go from there. If we accept this, then we have an additional problem because LOTR draws heavily on pagan myth , probably to a greater extent than the Christian faith.

Sorry I'm a little late responding. I missed your reply. First I don't think the biblical example is as unique as you may think. There is the casting out demons scenario in Matthew 12:23-25 for example. Just because they are not written doesn't mean they didn't occur. You also must keep in mind that God tends to only use signs and wonders at very important times like the Exodus and the ministry of the Messiah. God is not a showoff but the Devil is. It is one of the main differences between the occult and the works of God imo. :)

Also, did you change the title of this thread? I don't recall it saying what it says now. If you haven't made a change, I apologise for not taking enough notice of your intention for I would say it is not to be read as Christian literature. It is a fantasy, a story of the imagination. If a person is going to start building their life around it then reading the books or watching the movies are the least of their problems. :)

You said in your OP "LOTR is still a story about witches, warlocks and the occult", yet that is not what I see. I can only think of two references to witches, the Witch King of Angmar which, is a title given to one of the mortal kings who became a ring wraith and the other is used in respect to Galadriel and it is used as a derogatory term by those who are ignorant. As far as warlocks, again I can only think of one use of the term and that was in regards to Sauron, and to be honest, I'm not 100% sure if I am remembering that right. I know he was referred to as the Necromancer before his true identity was known. As for the occult? By your own admission you say it is hard to define terms like the occult. We don't believe Jesus walked on water using magic so I see no reason why we should assume that the "magic" seen in LOTR is anything more. I have a sneaking suspicion in the Resurrection we will not look all that dissimilar to elves in some ways. We will be immortal for one thing and I believe we will have powers that we are yet to imagine. When looking at those facts is it fair to make the statement it is "a story about witches, warlocks and the occult". I think it obvious I disagree. :)

If you want to read a book that pertains to life? Then open your Bible. But if you want a story that entertains while exposing some profound truths through mythology, imagination and metaphor than read LOTR. :)
 
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ViaCrucis

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From what I can see Druidism is probably a source drawn on heavily. Druidic magic is very subtle. It seems to be more about hearing and channeling preexistent forces. There is a close connection with nature and an emphasis on spells incantations and transformation. There are loads of examples of this in LOTR

Considering that historians really don't know anything about the druids, I find it very interesting that you seem to know so much about the druids, including "druidic magic". What are your sources?

Beorn - Shapeshifter -Possibly connected to Berserkers who were warrior shamans with totem animals

Dwarves - Scribing with moon stones - Runic magic

Orthanc - Supernatural tower - Imbued with 'wizardry' Men are responsible for this.

And yet, and this is important, none of this stuff is real. Berserkers existed, yes. Did they have magical shape-shifting power? No.

The accounts of magic within Celtic literature read like passages from LOTR. The lineage is there to see. I think that this connection is cause for concern. Remember that mythology was not imaginary to the Celtics. These myths were far more than make believe.

You mean Tolkien drew from folklore and mythology? This is already known. What is strange is that you think that somehow this is anything other than literary influence.

There is also the distinction between black and white magic which emerges from LOTR.

And there's no such thing as magic whatsoever.

I think the primary issue is that while we can have a fairly involved discussion and make some fine distinctions, most readers will not do so. To most people LOTR is taking ideas and practices from witchcraft. This alone is a bad situation.

Claims which, thus far, have been specious at best; and even so, doesn't mean what you think it means.

I can assure you that the boogeyman isn't hiding in your closet.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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HatGuy

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An amorphous category sure, but outside the canon there are works which many Christians posit as being orthodox works. The Didache, Divine Comedy, Pilgrim's Progress, Paradise Lost, Gerard Hopkins' poems etc. LOTR doesn't belong in this category
"Orthodox" is a strong word there.
It's more that Christians have found these works "inspirational" - which means it's all rather subjective and non-authoritative.

The only possible exception in your list is The Didache, given that some Christians wanted it in the canon back in the day, but that didn't happen.

LOTR certainly doesn't fall into an "orthodox" category and I'm sure Tolkien would he horrified if anyone treated it that way. It's not as if he wrote it in an effort to teach doctrine.

If anyone is reading fiction for doctrine, they got other problems!
 
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Ceallaigh

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I'm not saying that it shouldn't be read. it shouldn't be read as Christian literature. I've changed the title to reflect this.

I agree. And from what I remember, Tolkien said that wasn't his intention. He just wanted to create an ancient mythology for England because England didn't have one.
 
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Eftsoon

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Runes are inherently evil right? And we can't separate our world from middle earth right? The dwarves of Middle earth using runes would thereby implicate them in the worship or veneration of supernatural entities aside from God right? Let's take your interpretation to it's logical extreme.

It might therefore follow that Gimli and the rest of the dwarves worship the Nordic or Scandinavian pantheon and in Tolkien depicting the Gimli as good, he is trying to encourage sympathy towards Scandinavian Pagans and their beliefs.

Is this an unreasonable interpretation of Tolkien?

You're strawmanning now. This is a hopeless parody of my argument.
 
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Ceallaigh

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I first read The Hobbit and LOTR starting around 1975. And I read the Chronicles of Narnia around that time also. While it was quite clear that Aslan represented Jesus etc, I don't recall picking up on any Christian themes in the Hobbit or LOTR. It was just fun epic adventure. I remember I wanted a sword. Unfortunately they weren't available back then like they are now on eBay and such.
 
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Hmm

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I agree. And from what I remember, Tolkien said that wasn't his intention. He just wanted to create an ancient mythology for England because England didn't have one.

I think that is the case. The nearest thing to a mythology that England has is King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table but that's French in origin.
 
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dms1972

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Thank you - I knew that Gandalf was some sort of immortal being, but I didn't realise the full scope of this. There is still the problem of his power being talked about in terms of wizardry. The furniture is all there. There is context, but he is to the casual reader of the trilogy a witch.

Is the "wizard" aspect not more a sort guise Gandalf donns, or how he is popularly perceived by Hobbits and Men, rather than his actual identity? As other posters have said he is more like an angel or guardian angel. His powers seem to be something he is endowed with rather than being something he acquires through conjuring and invoking spirits. A good example I think is the exorcism of King Theoden - Gandalf releases him from Sauruman's spell and restores him to his right mind.
 
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