God’s faith in us matters more than our faith in God.

Saint Steven

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Do you really think that the idea of every human that ever lived spending eternity with God in paradise - fits comfortably with the bulk of the teachings of scripture abour sin, righteousness and judgement?
Carl, here is one example of the sort of translation issues we are seeing due to the translation bias of Damnationism. (notes from the video link at the bottom from what appears to be a Greek speaking author.)

Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

aionios, the Greek word translated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)
 
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Saint Steven

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Do you really think that the idea of every human that ever lived spending eternity with God in paradise - fits comfortably with the bulk of the teachings of scripture abour sin, righteousness and judgement?
Allow me to reverse the question back toward Damnationism.

Do you really think that the doctrine of a forever burning hell is respectful to the character of the God of love?

Jesus taught us that it is godly behavior to love our enemies. (scripture below) Yes, LOVE our enemies. Does God display this in incinerating his enemies? (nope) Damnationism makes God out to be worse than a pagan, or a tax collector. (traitor)

Matthew 5:43-48 NIV
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor" and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Hey - SS thanks for taking the time to explain you position and the journey you took to get there...

I have approached things in a different way because my life experience has been different.

Firstly there was always 'God awareness' in my life - from about the age of 4 seeing His fingerprint in creation.

Then at about 8 Jesus appears to me face to face - day time open eye - 'vision' He identifies He is Jesus and that nothing in this life I do will not be seen by Him.

Then at 13 I knew I needed to be born again but it was so personal I didn't want to do it 'publicly' so although I was at a Christian camp, I took off on my own - found a lonely spot - lay down prostrate and said 'I know I have always been yours, but there comes a time when I must give you my all and invite you to come into my life and take control, sorry for my sinful ways, forgive and fill me with yourself Jesus. As I was praying I heard footsteps coming towards me, but as I looked up there was no one there - but He has been with me ever since.

Being born again was the start of a difficult journey - back in the 60's folks went to church but there was little talk about personal encounters - one kept such matters to ones self. Godly counsel was rare. It was a formidable and largely lonely journey.

However at 17 I was pretty much a recluse until friends organised for me to go to a dance where I met my first wife. School had written me off and I was expelled for refusing to sit the national exam for the third time - my report said 'we know that He is good for something but we don't know what' So when I found a girl willing to speak to me, having such an inferiority complex, It was all on... The catch was that she didn't share my faith but back then the sum total of advice available was my dad saying 'are you sure you are doing the right thing?'

So seven years of incompatibility and eventually she took up with my best friend.

In the meantime my life became a shipwreck - drugs - anything to 'find myself' and ultimately incarcerated and administered ECT, reduced to vegetable state.

But - folks payed...

Something deep inside told me to return to my Christian roots.

So I was miraculously released from the mental hospital and took off up country to 'find God' again.

So on the wharf at Collingwood sitting alone looking at the ocean He shows up. It was like being picked up by the scruff of the neck and being told last chance - these are the rails - stay on them. Live your life according to the Bible...

So that was the beginning of a seven year journey back to Jesus and Wholeness - fellowship, prayer. healing, deliverance, Love.

So back to the point...

I had read scripture from a young age.

But returning to Him was starting a fresh - 5 years reading nothing but scripture. Prayerfully, meditatively, slowly - often pondering on just a verse or two and building meaning on meaning.

Then I attended a non denominational bible school and immediately realised that theological questions would arise - how would I handle that?

Heres what I did.

Firstly I knew He had a purpose for me and wanted me to learn matters specifically relate to my calling.

So questions were handed 'up stairs' and usually came back down in three days or so.

Whatever didn't come back down I assumed He didn't need me to know.

So my mind didn't get clogged up with questions.

Remember that the first temptation was all about wanting to know...

I realised that it was important not to buy into the knowledge game but be content with the specifics needed for my individual purpose in Him.

So for example he told me to stay away from end-times - that is not my territory.

So 5 years of meditative reading of the Word combined with my encounters with Him builds a picture first of all of His Character.

Patience, Love, enormous 'otherness', not to be messed with, healthy respect, intimately close, ever caring.

I also learned that the counterfiet god's force compliance through fear.

So my conclusion is that He will never override our will unless we give Him permission to do so.

Personally I believe all truely born again have done this - surrendered their will to Him.

BUT

Those who refuse Him He takes them at their word and honours their choice... ETERNALLY

We either face a Godless eternity devoid of Love.

or

We face an eternity in His loving fellowship as we have honoured Him in this life.

So I am at peace with this conclusion as it sits well with who I have found Him to be both experientially and in His Word.
 
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Saint Steven

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So 5 years of meditative reading of the Word combined with my encounters with Him builds a picture first of all of His Character.

Patience, Love, enormous 'otherness', not to be messed with, healthy respect, intimately close, ever caring.

I also learned that the counterfiet god's force compliance through fear.
Thanks for sharing that background. I appreciate it.

This quote above caught my eye.

The character of God you discovered seems incompatible with a forever burning hell. As if God is saying, "I love you. Live for me, or I will incinerate you."

And the churches have used the threat of hell to "force compliance through fear". (as you might say)
 
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Saint Steven

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So my conclusion is that He will never override our will unless we give Him permission to do so.

Personally I believe all truely born again have done this - surrendered their will to Him.

BUT

Those who refuse Him He takes them at their word and honours their choice... ETERNALLY

We either face a Godless eternity devoid of Love.

or

We face an eternity in His loving fellowship as we have honoured Him in this life.
No surprise here. This is the standard position. That God is like a two-sided coin. Love on one side and "Justice" on the other. Somehow they balance each other out. Oh, and don't forget to blame the victim for the outcome. God didn't really want to torture them for all eternity. His hand was forced.

Here's what my buddy @Lazarus Short has to say about that.

"God's sovereign Will is clear: that all men come to salvation in Him.
Will the Will of God not prevail?
The Calvinists assert that God is able to save all, but chooses not to.
The Arminians counter that He would like to save all, but cannot.
There is a third position, that God is both WILLING and ABLE to save all.
I wrestled with this idea, and it is not too difficult to find that He is willing...but is He able?
Then, one day it came to me in a flash: God is omnipotent, so OF COURSE He is able to save all.
No "mental gymnastics" are required, and no overturning, negation or alteration of His Will or His Word is required, just the realization that the doctrine of eternal damnation is wrong.
I could not find it in the KJV, and the "evidence" quoted by "hell" advocates is small and contradicted by many more Scriptures that I can quote all day."
 
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Carl Emerson

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Thanks for sharing that background. I appreciate it.

This quote above caught my eye.

The character of God you discovered seems incompatible with a forever burning hell. As if God is saying, "I love you. Live for me, or I will incinerate you."

And the churches have used the threat of hell to "force compliance through fear". (as you might say)

Honestly I don't think this is my position.

My definition of Hell is a place of Zero Love, separated from God, and in this arena Satans ways prevail and indescribable distress ensues.

This is then not God's doing at all.

We are to warn folks of this impending consequence, in fact if we don't, we will be called to account.
 
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Saint Steven

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Honestly I don't think this is my position.

My definition of Hell is a place of Zero Love, separated from God, and in this arena Satans ways prevail and indescribable distress ensues.

This is then not God's doing at all.

We are to warn folks of this impending consequence, in fact if we don't, we will be called to account.
Is your position biblical? (or incomplete biblically?)

I actually see this happening a lot. Some Christians will admit they are uncomfortable with the idea of a forever burning hell, and so they will try to soften it a bit. Many take the position of Annihilationism because it seems more humane than to torture a soul for all eternity. And they have biblical support for their position of complete annihilation, of course. There is biblical support for all three views of the final judgement.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Years back, I was involved in evangelism partly supporting the ministry of Ray Comfort when, getting really honest with God, I realised and confessed that I had a lack of burden for the lost.
So I prayed about this, believing that if I ask anything, according to His will, He hears me, and if I know that He hears me, I know that He grants the request that I ask...
Bingo... Within a couple of days I have this intense 'God dream' in which I was being led by an angel to observe the very rim of the pit.
This was a very intense moment an indescribable stench, seething foulness, ghastly... So seeing the very rim from a distance - I was seeing more than I could take. So I said to the angel, do I have to go any closer? It was clear I had got the message... the angel squeezed my hand and we turned back, the dream ended, but my attitude to evangelism changed somewhat.
I remember sharing this at a meeting of at risk youth and you could hear a pin drop.
So while there may be occasion when the church uses the fear of Hell as a tool to evangelise, there is also the real oil on the matter.
Let's get honest with God - ask Him to convince you about the plight of the lost.
 
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renniks

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Saint Steven

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Years back, I was involved in evangelism partly supporting the ministry of Ray Comfort when, getting really honest with God, I realised and confessed that I had a lack of burden for the lost.
So I prayed about this, believing that if I ask anything, according to His will, He hears me, and if I know that He hears me, I know that He grants the request that I ask...
Bingo... Within a couple of days I have this intense 'God dream' in which I was being led by an angel to observe the very rim of the pit.
This was a very intense moment an indescribable stench, seething foulness, ghastly... So seeing the very rim from a distance - I was seeing more than I could take. So I said to the angel, do I have to go any closer? It was clear I had got the message... the angel squeezed my hand and we turned back, the dream ended, but my attitude to evangelism changed somewhat.
I remember sharing this at a meeting of at risk youth and you could hear a pin drop.
So while there may be occasion when the church uses the fear of Hell as a tool to evangelise, there is also the real oil on the matter.
Let's get honest with God - ask Him to convince you about the plight of the lost.
Thanks for sharing that. However, the saw cuts both ways.

I imagine you had a predetermined interpretation of what you saw. Was there anything you remember that would prevent you from understanding that it was a purifying process that you were seeing? Like a refiner’s fire? (Malachi 3:2)

At the beginning of this discussion you had the misconception that Universalism meant everyone was going to heaven automatically, no matter what. It doesn't seem possible that you would have understood what you saw in the context of UR.

I imagine that your presumption about what you were seeing made it a terrifying dream. There was no way you would have imagined that you were observing the Ultimate Redemption of humankind, stench and all. And certainly not a place that anyone would want to stay for any extended period of time. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Jesus said, "Everyone will be salted with fire." That means we will be there as well.

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.
 
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Saint Steven

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... Let's get honest with God - ask Him to convince you about the plight of the lost.
What does the Bible tells us about "the lost"?
The lost coin was found, the lost son came home, and the lost sheep was found.

Even Judas will not be lost. (John 6:39) Assuming he was one that God had given to Jesus. He will regret the day he was born, however. But what does that mean? Dire consequences.

This is another interesting scripture, which also includes the phrase, "... those who belong to him." (differentiated from "the firstfruits") And verse 22 says "all will be made alive." Further support for Romans 5:18-19 that we discussed earlier.


1 Corinthians 15:22-24 NIV
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
 
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Saint Steven

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... the dream ended, but my attitude to evangelism changed somewhat. ...
I have to wonder what it would take to change your attitude completely. - lol

Humor aside, what was the actual outcome for you?

I would think that if you actually saw "the lost" suffering eternal torment in the flames, you would want to save everyone from eternal destruction.

Even your doctrinal position doesn't reflect your dream/vision. How can this be? Will you not be called to account as you claim below?

Carl Emerson said:
Honestly I don't think this is my position.

My definition of Hell is a place of Zero Love, separated from God, and in this arena Satans ways prevail and indescribable distress ensues.

This is then not God's doing at all.

We are to warn folks of this impending consequence, in fact if we don't, we will be called to account.
 
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Saint Steven

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... Within a couple of days I have this intense 'God dream' in which I was being led by an angel to observe the very rim of the pit.
This was a very intense moment an indescribable stench, seething foulness, ghastly... So seeing the very rim from a distance - I was seeing more than I could take. ...
Was there any indication that this was not God's doing? (per your position)

You saw what appeared to you to be the rim of hell. Who created such a thing?

With full knowledge of what it was and what it was designed to do. In other words, with malice and forethought.

If true, the worst crime ever perpetrated upon humankind.

Would our God really do such a thing? I don't believe so.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Was there any indication that this was not God's doing? (per your position)

You saw what appeared to you to be the rim of hell. Who created such a thing?

With full knowledge of what it was and what it was designed to do. In other words, with malice and forethought.

If true, the worst crime ever perpetrated upon humankind.

Would our God really do such a thing? I don't believe so.

SS I am not claiming to have all the answers - an interesting factor is that there was no evidence of people being there that I could see. But yes, a place prepared for the devil and his angels?

I am not convinced that God 'created it' I rather think that it may simply be a realm of loveless existence devoid of any goodness. In this case any punishment would be self inflicted.

At the same time - the theme of the wicked being punished is very strong in scripture.

Jesus is pretty strong in Matt 23...

29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs for the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous, 30 and you say, ‘If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. 33 You snakes, you offspring of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

His words... are you then judging Jesus by dismissing the divine prerogative to punish wickedness ??
 
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Saint Steven

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SS I am not claiming to have all the answers - an interesting factor is that there was no evidence of people being there that I could see. But yes, a place prepared for the devil and his angels?

I am not convinced that God 'created it' I rather think that it may simply be a realm of loveless existence devoid of any goodness. In this case any punishment would be self inflicted.

At the same time - the theme of the wicked being punished is very strong in scripture.

Jesus is pretty strong in Matt 23...

29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs for the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous, 30 and you say, ‘If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. 33 You snakes, you offspring of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

His words... are you then judging Jesus by dismissing the divine prerogative to punish wickedness ??
Thanks for your reply, Carl.

So, other than a huge and foreboding (and smelly) fire pit, you aren't sure what you were seeing. Yes, prepared for the devil and his angels. By whom? And for what purpose? Nothing to indicate that it was not intended for redemption. (Mark 9:49, Malachi 3:2)

... His words... are you then judging Jesus by dismissing the divine prerogative to punish wickedness ??
Not at all. There will be consequences for wickedness, but to what end? Is not the story about God and his relationship to creation the story of redemption?

SS I am not claiming to have all the answers - an interesting factor is that there was no evidence of people being there that I could see. But yes, a place prepared for the devil and his angels?

I am not convinced that God 'created it' I rather think that it may simply be a realm of loveless existence devoid of any goodness. In this case any punishment would be self inflicted....

Is the claim that hell exists outside of God's creation, or sovereignty, not a denial that he has made (upholds) all things?

John 1:3 NIV
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Acts 3:21 NIV
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Is the claim that hell exists outside of God's creation, or sovereignty, not a denial that he has made (upholds) all things?

Not really - it seems God has made a space with boundaries within which the wicked can excercise their Godlessness, possibly eternally, but He does not motivate it.

The suggestion that all His Judgements are for redemption seems flawed unless you include Lucifer in the proposition.
 
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Saint Steven

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The suggestion that all His Judgements are for redemption seems flawed unless you include Lucifer in the proposition.
Does Lucifer have knees and a tongue?

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: (Isaiah 45:23, Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 15:4)
 
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Saint Steven

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Not really - it seems God has made a space with boundaries within which the wicked can excercise their Godlessness, possibly eternally, but He does not motivate it.
You keep telling me that God didn't create hell while also telling me that he made it. And what you are claiming hell is, doesn't seem to have a biblical basis. Does it?
 
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Carl Emerson

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So you think that at judgement, when the wicked admit to the Lordship of Christ, they escape His Wrath ???

All I am saying is that Hell is the eternal consequence of refusing Christ.

In this God forces nothing, free will choices are made and eternally sealed.

You don't want God=Love ?

God will never force you to love Him.

You choose to live forever without Love.

This is a pretty serious issue.

The lost are not just lost - they are heading for a serious end...

Again how can we deny the scriptures that confirm this...

John 3:36
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

Eph 5:6
See that no one deceives you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

Col 3:6
For it is because of these things that the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience.
 
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