Status
Not open for further replies.

Ligurian

Cro-Magnon
Apr 21, 2021
3,589
536
America
✟22,234.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Private
I teach Pauline THEOLOGY.

Matthew 23:8-10

Thats very specific to the NEW Testament, as Paul wrote most of it, ligurian.

28% is not most of the New Testament.
Even if you add Acts, Paul still doesn't get the biggest part.
Nor does it matter, since Christ's first name is Jesus. And when Jesus came back from Heaven with all authority, His message never changed at all, Matthew 28:18-20.

Total words written by Paul: 50,190 words
Total words in the New Testament: 179,011
So Paul wrote 50190/179011 or 28% of the NT.
How much of the New Testament was written by Paul? | Comfort for Christians

72% of the New Testament:

# Book Words
40 Matthew 23343
41 Mark 14949
42 Luke 25640
43 John 18658
44 Acts 24229
59 James 2304
62 1 John 2517
63 2 John 298
64 3 John 294
65 Jude 608
66 Revelation 11952
How Many Words in Each Book of the Bible - The Holy Word Church of God

Development of the New Testament canon - Wikipedia

Its simply this. "The Cross".

Deuteronomy 21:22-23 And if there be sin in any one, and the judgment of death be upon him, and he be put to death, and ye hang him on a tree: his body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but ye shall by all means bury it in that day; for every one that is hanged on a tree is cursed of God; and ye shall by no means defile the land which the Lord thy God gives thee for an inheritance.

Matthew 27:19 When he was set down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, "Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him."
Matthew 27:24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but [that] rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed [his] hands before the multitude, saying, "I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye [to it]."
John 19:6 ...Pilate saith unto them, "Take ye Him, and crucify [him]: for I find no fault in Him."
Matthew 27:37 And set up over His head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.

judged not guilty, twice = not cursed by God

They wanted Jesus to be a curse, since they coveted His inheritance, Matthew 21:38.
wishin' don't make it so

What do you make of "The First Paul" theory?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Ligurian

Cro-Magnon
Apr 21, 2021
3,589
536
America
✟22,234.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Private
Jesus is God, so, He is above "theology", exactly as God is above the law.
What Jesus had to do was fulfill the law, as a human....and live a sinless life, also.
And He did just that, perfectly.
Had He not, then His sacrifice would not have been a "one time eternal " success.

Jesus didn't have to do anything. Nor did He come to glorify Himself. The words Jesus spoke came directly from the Father. The men Jesus chose were given to Him by the Father. This pattern is why we are told by Jesus to pray Our Father which art in Heaven. For we have no one on earth who has begotten us spiritually. Jesus quotes, We shall all be taught by God. The tribes from Egypt asked for a middle man. And God allowed it because He was testing them. If we choose to have ten thousand teachers stacked up in a pyramid to reach heaven-high, the church will fail the test, too. If the church didn't pay these hireling teachers, the seminaries and church buildings would just go away. Hirelings are not The Good Shepherd. Human teachers are not the Good Shepherd. Jesus is the only Good Shepherd, and no one teaches His sheep but Him.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
25,165
6,127
North Carolina
✟277,446.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
True. In Catholic teaching, our state of justice is based on who we are, not merely who we're imputed to be, who we've become by the grace of God as we now enter relationship with Him via faith.
So you are you referring to sanctification (growth in holiness) after imputed righteousnesss of justification.

Agreed.
And we're expected to produce, so to speak, with the seed of grace given, depending on the time and opportunity also given with more expected of those given more. Again, the Parable of the Talents gives clarification here.

Imputation or declaration involve forgiveness but not the justice or sanctity, itself, necessary to enter heaven, which is why the ancient churches maintain that, at justification, more than forgiveness is granted but also the power of the Spirit which involves the righteousness to oppose and overcome sin. If we were to die immediately, we'd go to heaven as long as our faith, hope, and love were genuine, but
if God's plan for us included a longer life, as most will have, and we were to squander that gift, to bury that grace- that life of Himself in us- or fail to persevere, turning away from God and back to sin, away from love, then...
The born again into eternal life do not spiritually die again by the loss of eternal life.
The born again persevere in faith and obedience to the end (John 6:37, John 6:39).
Those who do not persevere were never born again in the first place, they were only tares.
Anyway, at the end we're judged on holiness/sanctification,
But they are the result of saving faith, so it is the faith that saves us at the judgment.
For there can be a very religious life, and one can love well, without actual saving faith in Jesus' atoning blood (Romans 3:25), as in Orthodox Jews who reject Jesus Christ.
judged on our love to put it succinctly, so at some point in conjunction with justification that must be already realized, as a gift of righteousness even if only in seedling form. And with this in mind, verses such as the following make perfect sense as applying to believers now, and align with all of Paul's thoughts in Romans and elsewhere:
"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom 2:13
Okay, we need a litte more work in Romans 2.
I hope I'm dealing with person #2 today, and not person #1. :)

In the context of Romans 1:18-3:20 (three whole chapters), where
Paul is showing the unrighteousness of all mankind, Gentile and Jew, God having locked up all men in sin (Romans 11:32, Romans 3:9-10), Paul is presenting a righteousness from God by faith only (Romans 1:17).

In Romans 2:1-3:8, the middle of this passage,
Paul establishes the unrighteousness of the Jews (having established the unrighteousness of the Gentiles in Romans 1:18-32).
It is in the context of 2:1-3:8 that he demonstrates the unrighteousness of the Jews based on the Law itself. For "it is only those who obey the Law who will be declared righteous." But no one has, because no one can, obey the law according to its requirements, because to break one is to be guilty of breaking them all (James 2:10), so no one is declared righteous by keeping the law.

So, because no one can do the Law as required for righteousness by law-keeping, Paul concludes in Galatians 3:10 that "All who rely on the Law are under a curse," the curse of the Law itself in Deuteronomy 27:26, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Thereby Paul concludes his demonstration of the unrighteousness of all Jews.

Now to our point regarding what I have highlighted in your post above.
This does not apply to the Christian sanctification process.
This was not stated by Paul to demonstrate righteousness by law keeping, but to demonstrate there is, and can be, no righteousness by law keeping.

Righteousness is from God, through faith (Romans 1:17), which faith grows through obedience in the Holy Spirit, and that growth in faith (through obedience) is sanctification/holiness.

That's why belief/believe and obey/obedience are the same word (peitho) in the Greek.

So in conclusion: Romans 2:23 in your above does not refer to the process of sanctification/holiness through obedience by the Holy Spirit, but refers to earning righteousness by law keeping.

"...not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith." (Philippians 3:9)
"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13

As well as John:
"Little children, let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Christ is righteous. The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the very start. This is why the Son of God was revealed, to destroy the works of the devil." 1 John 3:7-8

Yes

"...not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith."
Phil 3:9
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
13,918
3,538
✟323,504.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
So you are you referring to sanctification (growth in holiness) after imputed righteousnesss of justification.
More like simultaneous-and necessary to continue in for salvation.
The born again into eternal life do not spiritually die again by the loss of eternal life.
The born again persevere in faith and obedience to the end (John 6:37, John 6:39).
Those who do not persevere were never born again in the first place, they were only tares.
Nah-unless we want to overlook a lot of Scripture. Adam was just to begin with-as created-and fell to his death. Fallen man can be restored to justice and life but then fail to appreciate and maintain it, fail to remain in Christ, and fall again. Those who persevere, however, will be saved-and they constitute the elect.
I hope I'm dealing with person #2 today, and not person #1. :)
Is there a meaning in there somewhere?
In the context of Romans 1:18-3:20 (three whole chapters), where
Paul is showing the unrighteousness of all mankind, Gentile and Jew, God having locked up all men in sin (Romans 11:32, Romans 3:9-10), Paul is establishing of a righteousness from God by faith only (Romans 1:17).
Pure unadulterated, uninformed, speculation.
So, because no one can do the Law as required for righteousness by law-keeping, Paul concludes in Galatians 3:10 that "All who rely on the Law are under a curse," the curse of the Law itself in Deuteronomy 27:26, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Thereby Paul concludes his demonstration of the unrighteousness of all Jews.
No one is relying on the law here. As Rom 2:13 implies (along with Rom 8:12-13), we don't even need to hear it, let alone rely on it-just the opposite, in fact: with the new covenant we fulfill the law by relying on God. And Jesus and Paul both outline what that means, referring to the ten commandments. If we rely on the law were relying on ourselves, our efforts, to be righteous, which is impossible. But with God, all things are possible, including making us who we were were created to be-which is what the moral law reflects in terms of human morality. And we weren't created to be sinners. We now fulfill the law by relying on God, by grace, by the Spirit who fills us with the love that fulfills it-Rom 5:5

"Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." Rom 13:10

Who says the law can't be fulfilled?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
13,918
3,538
✟323,504.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
So in conclusion: Romans 2:23 in your above does not refer to the process of sanctification/holiness through obedience by the Holy Spirit, but refers to earning righteousness by law keeping.
So in conclusion: Nah. But you're right about Phil 3:9, we receive real, personal righteousness through faith in Christthe righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith."
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
25,165
6,127
North Carolina
✟277,446.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
More like simultaneous-and necessary to continue in for salvation.

Nah-unless we want to overlook a lot of Scripture. Adam was just to begin with-as created-and fell to his death.
Adam didn't have the Son of God guaranteeing that he would not.
Fallen man can be restored to justice and life but then fail to appreciate and maintain it, fail to remain in Christ, and fall again. Those who persevere, however, will be saved-and they constitute the elect.

Is there a meaning in there somewhere?
Indeed, this is person #1.
Get person #2 to explain it to you.
Pure unadulterated, uninformed, speculation.

No one is relying on the law here. As Rom 2:13 implies (along with Rom 8:12-13), we don't even need to hear it, let alone rely on it-just the opposite, in fact: with the new covenant we fulfill the law by relying on God. And Jesus and Paul both outline what that means, referring to the ten commandments. If we rely on the law were relying on ourselves, our efforts, to be righteous, which is impossible. But with God, all things are possible, including making us who we were were create to be-which is what the moral law reflects in terms of human morality. And we weren't created to be sinners. We now fulfill the law by relying on God, by grace, by the Spirit who fills us with the love that fulfills it-Rom 5:5

"Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." Rom 13:10
Who says the law can't be fulfilled?
"All who rely on the Law are under a curse," (Galatians 3:10), the curse of the Law (Deuteronomy 27:26).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
13,918
3,538
✟323,504.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Adam didn't have the Son of God guaranteeing that he would not.
The guarantee only pertains to those He knows will persevere.
Get person #2 to explain it to you.
I see. The born-again difference is way overplayed by the ignorant-ending up with all kinds of poor souls asking, "Am I born again, am I saved? Those people who claim to be born again sure seem to insist that they're so different, and that they know with absolute certainty that they're BA, etc." All priggish rubbish, more like BS.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
25,165
6,127
North Carolina
✟277,446.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
The guarantee only pertains to those He knows will persevere.
He knows because he has decided that they shall (Romans 8:29-30).
I see. The born-again difference is way overplayed by the ignorant-ending up with all kinds of poor souls asking, "Am I born again, am I saved? Those people who claim to be born again sure seem to insist that they're so different, and that they know with absolute certainty that they're BA, etc." All priggish rubbish, more like BS.
"The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children." (Romans 8:16)

"I shall lose none of all that the Father has given me." (John 6:39)

Yep, that contempt for the word of God written is definitely person #1.
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,569
7,362
Dallas
✟887,168.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
And..?

Do you really think that Paul (especially) and Timothy were capable of denying Christ and were capable of being denied by Christ? If so, I would like some proof (from Scripture).

Actually, let's take it a step further. I am capable of murder, but I don't murder. I am a Christian, guided by the Holy Spirit and therefore don't kill people.

Sure no problem

“If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:12‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
 
  • Like
Reactions: fhansen
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
13,918
3,538
✟323,504.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
"The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children." (Romans 8:16)

"I shall lose none of all that the Father has given me." (John 6:39)

Yep, that contempt for the word of God written is definitely person #1.
No contempt, just honesty, honesty in dividing the whole word of God, with its hyperbolic encouragements along with its warnings and admonishments- and honesty with ourselves; we all already know that we don't have perfect certainty. That's faith and hope-and wishful thinking- becoming more certain than even humility calls for.

We can have a strong level of assurance and the main way we know is by our own love that God's wrought, and continues to work, within us. To the extent that we love Him with our whole heart, soul, mind and strength and our neighbor as ourselves, and act accordingly, we can also know that we are His. We'll know fully, just as we'll be fully known, when we meet Him "face to face."
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,569
7,362
Dallas
✟887,168.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I shall lose none of all that the Father has given me." (John 6:39)

You left out the first portion of that verse.

“This is the will (desire) of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:39‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

If your interpretation of that verse were correct then John 15:6 would be impossible. As well as John 15:2, 2 Timothy 2:12, and many others.

It’s no secret that God desires all men to be saved but they won’t.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: fhansen
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
25,165
6,127
North Carolina
✟277,446.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
You left out the first portion of that verse.

“This is the will (desire) of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.” John 6:39
So you think God's will is not done as it regards Jesus?
God's will is not simply "desire," God is not a supplicant.

Got any other examples of God's will not being done in regard to Jesus?
Until you provide such, God's will that Jesus lose none of all the Father gives him is done.
(John 6:39)
‭‭‬‬
If your interpretation of that verse
No "interpretation" required, just straight forward understanding the definitons of the words used.
were correct then John 15:6 would be impossible.
As well as John 15:2, 2 Timothy 2:12, and many others.
The NT often speaks of those in the kingdom, but not of the kingdom, like tares.
It’s no secret that God desires all men to be saved but they won’t.
I resolve that in Deuteronomy 29:29, as I resolve God's will for Pharoah (Exodus 4:21) with his command to Pharoah (Exodus 4:22-23, Exodus 5:1), and other such anomolies, of which there are a few.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
25,165
6,127
North Carolina
✟277,446.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Clare73 said:
In the context of Romans 1:18-3:20 (three whole chapters), where
Paul is showing the unrighteousness of all mankind, Gentile and Jew, God having locked up all men in sin (Romans 11:32, Romans 3:9-10),
Paul is presenting a righteousness from God by faith only (Romans 1:17).
Pure unadulterated, uninformed, speculation.
So, because no one can do the Law as required for righteousness by law-keeping, Paul concludes in Galatians 3:10 that "All who rely on the Law are under a curse," the curse of the Law itself in Deuteronomy 27:26, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Thereby Paul concludes his demonstration of the unrighteousness of all Jews.
The born-again difference is way overplayed by the ignorant. . .
All priggish rubbish, more like BS.


"It is love alone that gives worth to all things." Teresa of Avila
Kinda' gives the lie to your signature.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
13,918
3,538
✟323,504.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
So, because no one can do the Law as required for righteousness by law-keeping, Paul concludes in Galatians 3:10 that "All who rely on the Law are under a curse," the curse of the Law itself in Deuteronomy 27:26, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Thereby Paul concludes his demonstration of the unrighteousness of all Jews.
I don't rely on the law; I rely on God who happens to fulfill the law in me, putting His law in my mind and writing it on my heart to the extent that I remain in Him, cooperating with His work. Thank God for that work because without holiness no one will see the Lord- Heb 12:14. To put it another way, He helps me to love as He does, weak as I still am at it, and, again, 'love fulfills the law'. This is to be "under grace".

To be "under the law" means that it all must be obeyed by the letter, by my self-effort. But that's a curse either way because the letter kills; it's only an outward expression at best of no real righteousness inwardly, just an act. Jesus wants us clean on the inside first of all, then the outside will be clean. And since we already agree that one must be sanctified to enter heaven does that mean a lawbreaker can enter heaven? We should agree that sinlessness/lawkeeping is an obligation by some manner of reckoning or another. And Jesus and Paul both identify the moral law, naming commandments from the ten while knowing full well that these can only be authentically obeyed by the Spirit.
Kinda' gives the lie to your signature.
Nah, to repeat myself. Jesus, who-is-love, never shied from the truth, even if it offended, and didn't shy from righteous indignation; love, in fact, demanded it. IMO-and I'm not Jesus so I'll admit I could be wrong- I've not said anything outside of the boundaries set by love. That signature, BTW, is a very profound statement, simple as it sounds, learned the hard way by someone with a heart that burned for God.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Hmm
Upvote 0

Hmm

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know
Sep 27, 2019
4,866
5,027
34
Shropshire
✟186,379.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Interesting conversation so far, and I hope I don't ruin that!

There have been differences of opinion expressed on whether we are declared righteousness or made righteousness. fhansen's drawing a parallel to Adam and the Fall made sense to me: we aren't just categorised in a legal declaration as sinners after Adam's original sin, we were actually born into a world which is riddled with institutional sin such as unequal poverty as well as being weak and sinful creatures ourselves. So sinfulness is a very real thing and so therefore it seems to me righteousness must be an equally real thing and not just an abstract legalistic reclassification if our status before God.

So as I understand it then, we are made righteousness are become new creations. The Holy Spirit is now in us and it is in cooperation with the HS that we are transformed or sanctified. And this is an ongoing process - we can stop cooperating and return to a life without God whenever we like if we choose to. God has given us this freedom.

A question I have is that maintaining our sanctification is an obligation and responsibility so how do we best deal with that? I can imagine that if we are a perfectionist we may be paralysed by this thought because we can never achieve perfection in this life. The only solution I can think of comes from the great commandments to love God and to love others as ourselves especially the as ourselves part. Not merely to excuse ourselves all the time but to employ our new found capacity to cooperate with God as He builds His kingdom as best we can but to be kind to ourselves when we fail or don't do as well as we'd hoped.
 
Upvote 0

Ceallaigh

May God be with you and bless you.
Site Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
19,142
9,946
.
✟605,994.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
He knows because he has decided that they shall (Romans 8:29-30).

"The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children." (Romans 8:16)

"I shall lose none of all that the Father has given me." (John 6:39)

Yep, that contempt for the word of God written is definitely person #1.

I'm a bit confused because in post #633 you wrote, "The only conclusion is that there is no assurance of salvation, that one may not actually be saved."
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,569
7,362
Dallas
✟887,168.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
So you think God's will is not done as it regards Jesus?
God's will is not simply "desire," God is not a supplicant.

Got any other examples of God's will not being done in regard to Jesus?
Until you provide such, God's will that Jesus lose none of all the Father gives him is done.
(John 6:39)
‭‭‬‬
No "interpretation" required, just straight forward understanding the definitons of the words used.

The NT often speaks of those in the kingdom, but not of the kingdom, like tares.

I resolve that in Deuteronomy 29:29, as I resolve God's will for Pharoah (Exodus 4:21) with his command to Pharoah (Exodus 4:22-23, Exodus 5:1), and other such anomolies, of which there are a few.

I did provide scriptures to prove that not everyone remains in Christ. I also provided scriptures from Paul himself that indicate that both Paul and Timothy were capable of denying Christ and Christ is capable of denying them.

Tares do not apply to people who fail to abide in Christ. Jesus said the tares are placed in the church by the evil one, He also said no one can come to Me unless The Father draws him. So the people who fail to abide/remain in Christ are not tares because they were not planted there by the evil one they were drawn by The Father.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Ceallaigh

May God be with you and bless you.
Site Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
19,142
9,946
.
✟605,994.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I did provide scriptures to prove that not everyone remains in Christ. I also provided scriptures from Paul himself that indicate that both Paul and Timothy were capable of denying Christ and Christ is capable of denying them.

Here's the thing though 2 Timothy 2:12 is only a piece of a saying. The whole thing goes:

11 Here is a trustworthy saying:

If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12 if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13 if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.

I figure those who teach OSAS might use verse 13, the opposite way you used verse 12.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Clare73
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.