WHAT IS GOD'S GRACE FOR?

Clare73 · Jun 9, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Actually no. God's grace according to the scriptures and has already been shown in the Greek in Romans 1:5 is for everyone's obedience which we receive through faith.

I'm happy with the over 40 Biblical scholars of the NIV.

Thanks.

LoveGodsWord · Jun 9, 2021

Clare73 said:
I'm happy with the over 40 Biblical scholars of the NIV. Thanks.

I am also happy with the 47 scholars that translated the KJV as well as all the other translations and the Greek and Hebrew we should consider all of which is useless if we do not prayerfully seek God to guide us and teach us His Word. Your comments here I not see as relevant to what you are part quoting from if I am being honest with you from the complete post. BTW the reason for my view on the above is that I believe there is no perfect translation. Don't forget it was the so called scholars in the days of Jesus that put him on a cross to silence His Words. They were the keepers of the Word of God and did not understand who the scriptures foretold and pointed to. We cannot know the truth of Gods' Word by trying to understand it through the ways of the world. Unless God is our teacher we cannot know the truth of Gods' Word.

Clare73 · Jun 9, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
I am also happy with the 47 scholars that translated the KJV

I like it when we're all happy.

LoveGodsWord · Jun 9, 2021

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Hi dqhall nice to see you. Are you saying here that Gentile believers can lie, steal and murder while using God's name in vain? Did you know all of Gods' 10 commandments are repeated in the new covenant as a requirement for Christian living?

Your response here...

dqhall said:
Not at all. The Romans crucified murderers and thieves. This law forced the Jews to go to the Romans to get them to kill Jesus.
Can you stone a man for picking up sticks/firewood on the Sabbath as was required in the Law of Moses? Numbers 15:32-36, Exodus 35:2. If you can stone them to death as required by the Law of Moses, why call yourself a Christian. Jesus said anger and murder are wrong. If you do stone people to death, you might find yourself in prison, without the comfort of the Holy Spirit.

Hi dqhall, nice to see you again and thanks for sharing your view here. I was just tracing back our conversation and my response above shown at the top of this post was from what you posted in Acts 15. If you read the context in Acts of the Apostles 15:1-2 you will see that the topic of discussion and subject matter was never about are God's 10 commandments a requirement for Christian living. The question being discussed at Jerusalem was; "Is circumcision a requirement for the salvation of new gentile believers".

Acts of the Apostles 15:1-2 [1], And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, EXCEPT YE BE CIRCUMCISED AFTER THE MANNER OF MOSES YOU CANNOT BE SAVED. [2], When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, THEY DETERMINED THAT PAUL AND BARNABAS AND CERTAIN OTHER OF THEM SHOULD GO UP TO JERUSALEM UNTO THE APOSTLES AND ELDERS ABOUT THIS QUESTION .

The question was never about "Are Gods' 10 commandments a requirement for Christian living". It was about the question is "circumcision a requirement for the salvation of new gentile believers".

Having an interpretation that Acts of the Apostles 15 is talking about Gods' 10 commandments as Paul in contradiction with Paul and the rest of the new testament scriptures where Paul says to the Corinthian believers some time latter...

1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing BUT THE KEEPING OF THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD.

So of course Acts of the Apostles 15 cannot be talking about God's 10 commandments. It is talking about circumcision from the law of Moses and the other shadow laws that point to Jesus and God's new covenant promise of a new heart through faith *Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:24-27.

Hope this is helpful.

Thuycidides · Jun 9, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Yes I agree Thuycidides abd BTW big welcome to CF ! Thanks for sharing your view. A question for consideration though, how do we know if we are following the right faith or not according to the scriptures (40,000 Christian denominations)?

Then stay according to Scripture.

"These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

If you don't have the faith to do, then don't do, especially of someone is trying to force you to do.

"And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin."

If you are sincere in Jesus, never ever override your conscience based solely upon a person's commands or teachings or persuasions.

"Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you."

IF you don't know what to do, then don't. If you must act and still don't know for sure, then do the best you can as unto the Lord. It's all that God looks for: faith, honesty, sincerity of heart:

"Grace be with all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity. Amen."

Frankly, my experience as well as Scriptural reading is that no help and no pulpit, is better than bad help and bad pulpit:

"Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse."

If you have the faith of Jesus and believe the Scriptures as written and want to do good and not evil, then trust in your own faith that God will not guide you into temptation, but to good works of faith:

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."

So long as we remain the little sheep of Jesus Christ, without pride nor idolatry, the wolf will never take us away from the voice of Him Who called us, saved us, and loved us to the end:

"I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers."

Never ever allow a strange voice or doctrine or commandment of men to move you from the hope of your calling in Christ Jesus, no matter how persuasive they sound, especially if they are forceful about it.

Force has nothing to do with the kingdom of God. God does not force anyone into anything. How do we know? Because Love does not. God is love.

God would rather let someone go their own way, even to destruction, because He loves them and will not force them; therefore, anyone trying to force you into something as a matter of faith and service to God, is not of God:

"They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service."

All faith of God in Christ Jesus is according to free will and good pleasure, liberty, and purity of heart, and there is no repentance needed:

"For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance."

"Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom."

LoveGodsWord · Jun 9, 2021

Thuycidides said:
Then stay according to Scripture.

What is it in your view that is not according to the scriptures? Let's discuss this. Perhaps you have a misunderstanding as to what is being shared here.

Thuycidides · Jun 9, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
What is it in your view that is not according to the scriptures? Let's discuss this. Perhaps you have a misunderstanding as to what is being shared here.

You asked how to be sure we are doing the will of God according to the Scriptures.

My response is natural: stick with the Scriptures.

I'll expand: stick with the Scriptures only. Do not allow any persuasion, whether from man or angels or even from our own selves to act contrary to plainly written Scripture.

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."

When we don't know what to do in a given situation, then simply do by faith of Jesus with sincerity of heart. God demands nothing more.

And we can be confident that God will help and guide us even in our ignorance of His perfect will.

We are not called to do perfectly. We are simply called to do good and to do it well, even as Jesus:

"He hath done all things well: God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good."

Avoid perfectionism and perfectionists in the faith, which leads to idolatry, whether for others, or for others:

"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen."

Carl Emerson · Jun 9, 2021

Thuycidides said:
All faith of God in Christ Jesus is according to free will and good pleasure, liberty, and purity of heart, and there is no repentance needed:

"For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance."

"Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom."

Welcome to CF friend...

I followed your post and appreciate your input.

This last bit maybe requires some clarification - Peter said repent and be baptised...

I assume you mean that the gifts and calling of God will not be taken away...

Just clarifying - great to have you on board !!

Thuycidides · Jun 9, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
Welcome to CF friend...

I followed your post and appreciate your input.

This last bit maybe requires some clarification - Peter said repent and be baptised...

I assume you mean that the gifts and calling of God will not be taken away...

Just clarifying - great to have you on board !!

No. The gift of faith can become dead, when we cease to do it (James 2), even as muscles become atrophied when we cease to exercise them.

But doing anything by the gift of faith from the heart as we are called to do in our heavenly calling, need never be repented of nor sorrowed over, because we did what we believed to be good and right in Christ Jesus. No matter how things seem to turn out, at least I did what I did by faith.

We cannot always predict the outcome of our doings of faith, but we can rest assured that God was pleased when we did so.

Doing by faith is not a guarantee that things will turn out as we like or expect. The only guarantee is that God is pleased when we do so from the heart.

No matter how long it may take, all things work together for the good to them who love God and are called to His purpose, and do so by faith.

The guiding line of Scripture and the Spirit. No deed or work contrary to Scripture is ever any good, nor ever will be pleasing to God.

So we are given as a gift the faith of Jesus in the heart and the Scriptures in writing: both are necessary and complimentary to one another.

Carl Emerson · Jun 9, 2021

Thuycidides said:
No. The gift of faith can become dead, when we cease to do it (James 2), even as muscles become atrophied when we cease to exercise them.

But doing anything by the gift of faith from the heart as we are called to do in our heavenly calling, need never be repented of nor sorrowed over, because we did what we believed to be good and right in Christ Jesus. No matter how things seem to turn out, at least I did what I did by faith.

We cannot always predict the outcome of our doings of faith, but we can rest assured that God was pleased when we did so.

Doing by faith is not a guarantee that things will turn out as we like or expect. The only guarantee is that God is pleased when we do so from the heart.

No matter how long it may take, all things work together for the good to them who love God and are called to His purpose, and do so by faith.

The guiding line of Scripture and the Spirit. No deed or work contrary to Scripture is ever any good, nor ever will be pleasing to God.

So we are given as a gift the faith of Jesus in the heart and the Scriptures in writing: both are necessary and complimentary to one another.

Yes I get your meaning now...

Well done - keep it up - we need good input.

Thuycidides · Jun 9, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
Yes I get your meaning now...

Well done - keep it up - we need good input.

I would put it this way. the faith of Jesus in the inner man is what God saves by grace.

But if our inner man allows the old man to take over again, then faith dies, and there is nothing left for God to save by grace.

There are two things that are commanded by God in His law to keep the faith of God:

Abstain from evil and do good.

We can sin and transgress and be forgiven by confession, where He is faithful and just to forgive us. And He is faithful and just to do so seventy times seven; however, if we go on in transgression to where we no longer do any good at all with the faith given us by grace, then the love of God grows cold in our hearts, iniquity abounds, and we crucify the Son afresh.

From such, there is no possible '2nd' repentance of or salvation from dead works.

The grace of God is the freely given opportunity to live by faith of God, which we never deserved in the first place, but it is certainly not a freely given exemption from doing good.

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid."

Carl Emerson · Jun 9, 2021

Thuycidides said:
I would put it this way. the faith of Jesus in the inner man is what God saves by grace.

But if our inner man allows the old man to take over again, then faith dies, and there is nothing left for God to save by grace.

There are two things that are commanded by God in His law to keep the faith of God:

Abstain from evil and do good.

We can sin and transgress and be forgiven by confession, where He is faithful and just to forgive us. And He is faithful and just to do so seventy times seven; however, if we go on in transgression to where we no longer do any good at all with the faith given us by grace, then the love of God grows cold in our hearts, iniquity abounds, and we crucify the Son afresh.

From such, there is no possible '2nd' repentance of or salvation from dead works.

The grace of God is the freely given opportunity to live by faith of God, which we never deserved in the first place, but it is certainly not a freely given exemption from doing good.

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid."

Do you have room for a prodigal son in your thinking?

I strayed away from the faith for eleven years and was welcomed back.

Thuycidides · Jun 9, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
Do you have room for a prodigal son in your thinking?

I strayed away from the faith for eleven years and was welcomed back.

And so you did not stray so far away that you crucified the Son afresh in your heart and in your life.

That is grace and patience of God that is longsuffering.

I do not judge when such a time comes, only that it can come. Let him that is spiritual restore a brother and convert a sinner from error. But, let all beware, lest we too fall after the same manner of unbelief as them in the wilderness.

No man is better than any other in the flesh, and no man is worse than any other after the flesh.

Only the faith of Jesus remaining in the heart makes any difference to God.

"And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not."

You repented, and I likewise have repented. Thank God. But there are some who do not, and are passed time to do so. Whether is be Lucifer, or King Saul, or Judas, or Demas, or Jezebel the false teacher.

The grace of God is everlastingly there to save them that believe, but without faith it is impossible to please God and to be saved by grace, whether having never believed, or having believed and departed therefrom, never to return:

He that was believing, and is not believing anymore. (Rev 17)

dqhall · Jun 9, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Your response here...

Hi dqhall, nice to see you again and thanks for sharing your view here. I was just tracing back our conversation and my response above shown at the top of this post was from what you posted in Acts 15. If you read the context in Acts of the Apostles 15:1-2 you will see that the topic of discussion and subject matter was never about are God's 10 commandments a requirement for Christian living. The question being discussed at Jerusalem was; "Is circumcision a requirement for the salvation of new gentile believers".

Acts of the Apostles 15:1-2 [1], And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, EXCEPT YE BE CIRCUMCISED AFTER THE MANNER OF MOSES YOU CANNOT BE SAVED. [2], When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, THEY DETERMINED THAT PAUL AND BARNABAS AND CERTAIN OTHER OF THEM SHOULD GO UP TO JERUSALEM UNTO THE APOSTLES AND ELDERS ABOUT THIS QUESTION .

The question was never about "Are Gods' 10 commandments a requirement for Christian living". It was about the question is "circumcision a requirement for the salvation of new gentile believers".

Having an interpretation that Acts of the Apostles 15 is talking about Gods' 10 commandments as Paul in contradiction with Paul and the rest of the new testament scriptures where Paul says to the Corinthian believers some time latter...

1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing BUT THE KEEPING OF THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD.

So of course Acts of the Apostles 15 cannot be talking about God's 10 commandments. It is talking about circumcision from the law of Moses and the other shadow laws that point to Jesus and God's new covenant promise of a new heart through faith *Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:24-27.

Hope this is helpful.

Jesus worked during Shabbat. For that the teachers of the law wanted to execute him. God works every day and every night. God knows if a sparrow falls from the sky. Jesus came to establish a New Covenant, not to enslave us with the Laws of Moses, full of imperfection and rage. Paul does not force us to obey the laws of Moses described in the first five books of the Bible. Part of these laws are good, but the totality of the Torah law is not good. The law is blind and can not recognize its own error. This does not mean I ignore all the precepts of the law and live as a bandit, murderer or pimp. It means if someone slaps me on one cheek, I am supposed to turn and offer the other cheek, not fire on the assailant. I may not do adultery, nor premarital sex, not even look at inappropriate content videos.

Galatians 5:1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

LoveGodsWord · Jun 10, 2021

Thuycidides said:
You asked how to be sure we are doing the will of God according to the Scriptures. My response is natural: stick with the Scriptures.

Ok but I am sure the other 40,000 denominations say the same thing do they now? So what is the difference? Obviously not everyone can be right can they while all professing to be Gods' true Church and professing to stick with the scriptures. So how can we know if we are truly following God or not following God?

LoveGodsWord · Jun 10, 2021

dqhall said:
Jesus worked during Shabbat. For that the teachers of the law wanted to execute him. God works every day and every night. God knows if a sparrow falls from the sky. Jesus came to establish a New Covenant, not to enslave us with the Laws of Moses, full of imperfection and rage. Paul does not force us to obey the laws of Moses described in the first five books of the Bible. Part of these laws are good, but the totality of the Torah law is not good. The law is blind and can not recognize its own error. This does not mean I ignore all the precepts of the law and live as a bandit, murderer or pimp. It means if someone slaps me on one cheek, I am supposed to turn and offer the other cheek, not fire on the assailant. I may not do adultery, nor premarital sex, not even look at inappropriate content videos.

Galatians 5:1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

Actually no. Jesus did good on the Sabbath. There is a difference. If Jesus did his own work on the Sabbath (carpentry) it would be sin and we would all be lost. The scriptures teach that Jesus was without sin (sinless) which means he did not break God's law.

Galatians 5:1 says Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. The scriptures are referring to the shadow laws of the old covenant that all pointed to Christ in the new covenant which points to a new heart through faith and God's law written on the heart to love and keep his law not break his law (see Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-38; 1 Corinthians 7:19).

The liberty wherewith Christ has made us free is not from the law (God's 10 commandments) that give us the knowledge of what sin is *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4, but from the penalty of breaking the law which is sin and its condemnation and death through the blood of Jesus who has paid the penalty for our sins with his own life in order to bring us back to God's forgiveness though faith in His Word (Romans 8:1-4). The bondage being referred to here is that of being a slave to sin and death and the Mosaic ceremonial "shadow laws" of the old covenant that point to Jesus and freedom in Christ under the new covenant promise of Gods' forgiveness through faith in His son Jesus (see John 8:31-36; Romans 6:1-23; Romans 7:1-25 and Romans 8:1-12; 1 John 1:9).

Hope this is helpful.

Thuycidides · Jun 10, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Actually no. Jesus did good on the Sabbath. There is a difference. If Jesus did his own work on the Sabbath (carpentry) it would be sin and we would all be lost. The scriptures teach that Jesus was without sin (sinless) which means he did not break God's law.

Galatians 5:1 says Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. The scriptures are referring to the shadow laws of the old covenant that all pointed to Christ in the new covenant which points to a new heart through faith and God's law written on the heart to love and keep his law not break his law (see Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-38; 1 Corinthians 7:19).

The liberty wherewith Christ has made us free is not from the law but from the penalty of breaking the law which is sin and its condemnation and death through the blood of Jesus who has paid the penalty for ours with his own life in order to bring us back to God's forgiveness though faith in Gods' Word (Romans 8:1-4). The bondage being referred to here is that of being a slave to sin and death (see John 8:31-36; Romans 6:1-23; Romans 7:1-25 and Romans 8:1-12).

Hope this is helpful.

Entirely agree. It always gets me how Christians so readily think that Jesus as a Jew was so ready to transgress the Law of Moses, which He Himself gave on the mount and in the wilderness, and was still in effect until His death on the cross.

They falsely accused Jesus of many things, gluttony and drunkenness without any basis, but they also accused Him of transgressing the Sabbath according to their own rules of Sabbath, not God's.

The nature of legalist self-righteous religious 'leaders' is to start making up a bunch of outward rules and carnal ordinances to obey, as though they were law of God...

LoveGodsWord · Jun 10, 2021

Thuycidides said:
Entirely agree. It always gets me how Christians so readily think that Jesus as a Jew was so ready to transgress the Law of Moses, which He Himself gave on the mount and in the wilderness, and was still in effect until His death on the cross.

They falsely accused Jesus of many things, gluttony and drunkenness without any basis, but they also accused Him of transgressing the Sabbath according to their own rules of Sabbath, not God's.

The nature of legalist self-righteous religious 'leaders' is to start making up a bunch of outward rules and carnal ordinances to obey, as though they were law of God...

Good points Thuycidides. If Jesus came to teach us that it is now ok to break Gods' law then there would be no point for him to die for those who broke God's law. Many have a mistaken view here. To me this teaching makes a mockery of the death of Jesus. While the purpose of God's law is to lead us to Christ that we as sinners might be forgiven through faith (Galatians 3:22-25). We are truly saved by God's grace through faith because God so loved our world *John 3:16 not everyone can see this sadly.

God bless.

Thuycidides · Jun 10, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Good points Thuycidides. If Jesus came to teach us now that it is now ok to break Gods' law then there would be no point for him to die for those who broke God's law. Many have a mistaken view here. To me this teaching makes a mockery of the death of Jesus. While the purpose of God's law is to lead us to Christ that we as sinners might be forgiven through faith (Galatians 3:22-25). We are truly saved by God's grace through faith because God so loved our world *John 3:16

God bless.

Like the Lord was God who could do what He wants. Make up rules as He goes along, and breaks them as He wishes, or if 'necessary'.

It's not an accident that Paul said most people desiring to deal with matters of law don't know what they are talking about.

Real teaching of law is an exacting science.

Thuycidides · Jun 10, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Good points Thuycidides. If Jesus came to teach us now that it is now ok to break Gods' law then there would be no point for him to die for those who broke God's law. Many have a mistaken view here. To me this teaching makes a mockery of the death of Jesus. While the purpose of God's law is to lead us to Christ that we as sinners might be forgiven through faith (Galatians 3:22-25). We are truly saved by God's grace through faith because God so loved our world *John 3:16

God bless.

You're probably the first one I've seen making this point correctly.

I have something for you:
1. The law was changed with the priesthood and the covenant of God. The law of God changed from that of Moses to that of Christ.

That change had to have taken place at Jesus' exact moment of death on the cross, when the full price for sin was paid.

All law of God is from Scripture, but not all Scripture is law of God. And since the law of God changed completely, even as the Covenant from the Old to the New, then the Scriptures wherein is found the law of Christ are all written after His death on the cross.

I.e. every Scripture beginning after the verse of Scripture in each Gospel is now Scripture having the law of Christ written therein.

Therefore, no Scripture written before those four verses can be taught as law of Christ for the New Covenant, except they be written again as law of Christ in the Scriptures of the New.

Circumcision was law of Moses, but is not written as such for Christ; therefore, that which was law of God is no more law of God.

WHAT IS GOD'S GRACE FOR?

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