Does going against John Calvin mean going against God?

Der Alte

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Good Day, Der Alte
It may appear like that to you at first glance, but I would refer you to their work on those passages you posted.
BTW they do not call Spurgeon the prince of preachers for nothing.
In Him,
Bill
I studied both Biblical languages at the graduate level more than three decades ago. I don't think either Calvin or Spurgeon can add anything to my education.
 
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BBAS 64

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I studied both Biblical languages at the graduate level more than three decades ago. I don't think either Calvin or Spurgeon can add anything to my education.

Good Day,

Well than ok... that and $3.75 will get you a coffee and a muffin.

But you said:

"It would appear that both Calvin and Spurgeon contradict the words of Jesus, Himself. e.g. Matthew 25:46, Matthew 25:41,Mark 9:43-48, Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50 etc."

How would you know that for sure if you have not read what they said on these passages. For sure you are based on your education are making an assumption without a factual basis.

You in fact may be misrepresenting them and you do not see the dishonesty in doing that?

In Him,

Bill
 
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Silverback

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Of course it can is why we explain the verses they present secondly, believing Reform doctrine has nothing to do with Lutherans because Lutherans can be Calvinist.

Not fully Calvinist and still follow Lutheran beliefs, but people can believe what they want. Most Lutherans would accept total depravity, and unconditional election, the other points would pose some challenges.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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The Puritan divine Richard Sibbes said that we should obey what Christ has commanded, which is reflected in Paul's answer to the crowd on the Day of Pentecost and to the Philippian jailor: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ". And Jesus' statement: "This is the will of God, that you believe on Him whom God has sent."

Obeying the clear commands of God takes priority over a secret decree that God has made and has not clearly revealed to us. What He has decreed in heaven is His business and not ours. Our business is to believe on Christ whom God has sent into the world to be our Saviour, and the secret heavenly decrees will take care of themselves.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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In this video John MacArthur reads objections to Calvinism's doctrine of predestination, and says the comments go against the sovereignty of God. It sounded more to me that the comments went against John Cavin's doctrine. Or should both considered one and the same?

Sure, because Calvin is a new member of the trinity.

Astute observation of a tradition's unscrupulous bundling of their doctrine and God's will as being the same thing. Nice coincidence, not the only of it's kind.
 
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renniks

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Well, I suspect Calvin's definition corresponds "somewhat" to Daniel 4:35.
That definition fits quite well into a belief in free will also. Of course God does what he wants.. the question is what he wants. If he didn't want us to have the ability to make real choices that actually affect reality, the Bible would say that.
 
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Clare73

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That definition fits quite well into a belief in free will also.

Free will is the ability (power) to choose what one prefers without external force or constraint.

Free will is not the issue in the NT, the issue is disposition--what one prefers, which governs the will.

God works in the disposition, giving one to prefer the things of God, which he cannot without the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:14), and then man freely and willingly chooses what he prefers.

God does not violate man's fee will, he uses it in bringing men to himself.
Of course God does what he wants.. the question is what he wants. If he didn't want us to have the ability to make real choices that actually affect reality, the Bible would say that.
The Bible does say what I presented, so that makes it what he wants.
 
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Good, Evil, and God’s Providence


"The problem of God’s relation to sin remains a mystery,’ as Berkhof said. In spite of all the foregoing statements, we have come to the point where we confess that we do not understand how it is that God can ordain that we carry out evil deeds and yet hold us accountable for them and not be blamed himself. We can affirm all these things are true, because Scripture teaches them. But Scripture does not tell us exactly how God brings this situation about or how it can be that God holds us accountable for what he ordains comes to pass."

Above statement made by Calvinist Professor Wayne Grudem in his 'Systematic Theology' (ch. 16). (my emp)


The Bible does not teach God to be an unjust, unfair ogre causing men to do evil then have God punish men for the evil He caused those men to do. This a problem Calvinism created for itself and not a problem found within God's word.
 
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Butterball1

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But teaching the sovereignty of God wasn't exclusive to Calvin. All of the major theologians of the reformation taught the sovereignty of God. Jacobus Arminius taught the sovereignty of God. However Arminianism and Calvinism are opposing theologies.
Calvinism takes God's Sovereignty to an extreme, unbiblical level in having God do things that go completely against His nature, (see my post #29). Sovereignty is just one aspect of God's nature for God is also perfectly Holy and Just. Though God has total Sovereignty it does not, cannot contradict, trump going against other aspects of God's nature. God's Sovereignty does not allow God to lie and violate His perfectly Holy nature. Nor can God's Sovereignty violate His perfect Just nature (God's Sovereignty does not violate man's free will causing me to do evil then God punishing men for the evil God caused man to commit...again, see post #29). Daniel 4:25 says nothing about one aspect of God's nature (sovereignty) contradicting, trumping other aspects (holy and just).
 
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Greengardener

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What I've noticed, for what it may be worth in this thread, is that a lot of points can be argued with proof texts and some of them end up glued together better than others. Still, without keeping the texts in their contexts, and without realizing that the New is not in disagreement with the Old Testament and that Jesus Himself was teaching what God had already said (and why would God say something different anyways?), some have taken far too many liberties to get away from what the message from God was to begin with. So I'd tend to say, no, Calvinism (or any "ism") does not equal the message of the Bible. It is that God in these last days has spoken to us by His Son, Heir of all things, but there is lots of evidence that God continued to convey to us the same message, this time fleshed out in Jesus.
 
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Der Alte

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Good Day,
Well than ok... that and $3.75 will get you a coffee and a muffin.

Have I tried to insult you? Since I have not why are you trying to insult me? I think I clearly expressed why I said what I did. I can read the scriptures in more than one language I don't need the writings of famous Christians to tell me what the scriptures "really" mean.
But you said:
"It would appear that both Calvin and Spurgeon contradict the words of Jesus, Himself. e.g. Matthew 25:46, Matthew 25:41,Mark 9:43-48, Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50 etc."
How would you know that for sure if you have not read what they said on these passages. For sure you are based on your education are making an assumption without a factual basis.
I can also read English and I read what was said about Calvin and Spurgeon in this thread, which I quoted.

You in fact may be misrepresenting them and you do not see the dishonesty in doing that?
In Him,
Bill
No I am not unless the people I quoted were misrepresenting both.
 
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BBAS 64

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Have I tried to insult you? Since I have not why are you trying to insult me? I think I clearly expressed why I said what I did. I can read the scriptures in more than one language I don't need the writings of famous Christians to tell me what the scriptures "really" mean.

I can also read English and I read what was said about Calvin and Spurgeon in this thread, which I quoted.


No I am not unless the people I quoted were misrepresenting both.

Good Day, DerAlte

I was not trying to insult you... just going for a bit of Humor.

Sorry.

Bill
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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Here is James Arminius ( Arminianism) teachings below and his comments.

“Next to the study of the Scriptures which I earnestly inculcate, I exhort my pupils to peruse Calvin's Commentaries, which I extol in loftier terms than Helmich himself (a Dutch divine, 1551-1608]; for I affirm that he excels beyond comparison (incomparabilem esse) in the interpretation of Scripture, and that his commentaries ought to be more highly valued than all that is handed down to us by the library of the fathers; so that I acknowledge him to have possessed above most others, or rather above all other men, what may be called an eminent spirit of prophecy (spiritum aliquem prophetiae eximium). His Institutes ought to be studied after the [Heidelberg] Catechism, as containing a fuller explanation, but with discrimination ( cum delectu), like the writings of all men."

-- James Arminius (1560-1609)



J. Matthew Pinson says: “ Those who bring their own presuppositions into the study of Arminius and read later Arminian themes into his thought fail to realize perhaps the most important thing about his theology: that it is distinctively Reformed. It is a development of Reformed theology rather than a departure from it “ In the same tomne, William Pauck writes , “ The Arminians [and thus Arminius] belong as definitely to the Calvinistic tradition as the defenders of the decisions of the Synod of Dort”.


Arminius letter to Hippolytus a Collibus, in 1608: “I confidently declare that I have never taught anything, either in the church or in the university, which contravenes the sacred writings that ought to be with us the sole rule of thinking and of speaking, or which is opposed to the Belgic Confession or to the Heidelberg Catechism, that are our stricter formularies of consent. “In his Declaration of Sentiments that same year, Arminius challenged anyone to prove that he had ever said anything “in conflict with either the Word of God or the Confession of the Dutch Churches.


”Arminius lived and died with complete loyalty to the Heidelberg Catechism and the Belgic Confession of Faith.
Read Arminian and Baptist Online by J. Matthew Pinson | Books


Picirilli states, “Those who read him carefully know well that he did not make saving faith a work, that he affirmed that God’s grace is to be credited entirely with anyone’s salvation from beginning to end. He was no Pelagian, as he took pains to make clear” [15]. To illustrate this point, let’s consider Arminius himself: “The free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost: And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they are assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such are excited by grace” [16]. In reference to claims of semi-Pelagianism, Pinson observes,


Most Reformed critics have portrayed Arminius as a semi-Pelagian and a defector from Reformed theology. Most Arminians, both Wesleyans and Remonstrants, have cast him in Wesleyan or Remonstrant terms, failing to take seriously his theology itself and the context in which it was spawned. Both these perspectives have seriously misunderstood Arminius, using him for polemical purposes rather than simply trying to understand and benefit from his theology [17].

Another large misconception concerning Arminius’ theology is his view of the atonement. Some have wrongly attributed a governmental view of atonement to Arminius. As stated earlier, Arminius posited a penal-substitutionary view of the atonement. Instead, it was Arminius’ follower Hugo Grotius who espoused the governmental view of atonement. And since this view has gained “Arminian” adherents through the years (including Charles Finney, James H. Fairchild, John Miley, and H. Orton Miley), it has led many to believe that Arminius subscribed to this view [18]. However, Arminius himself in no way held this view.


Furthermore, within self-identified Arminianism are two competing schools: Classical Arminianism and Wesleyan Arminianism [19]. As the name suggests, Wesleyan Arminianism is merely an adaptation of Arminius’ teachings by John Wesley. Hence, as careful students of history and theology, we mustn’t impose Wesley’s interpretation of Arminius upon the reformer himself. On the other hand, Classical Arminianism seeks to embody the actual teachings of Arminius himself—hence the term Classical or even Reformed [20].


Conclusion


Calvinism and Arminianism: the debate will likely continue. And throughout this month the Helwys Society Forum will consider other themes of Arminius’ theology including the Fall/human condition, prevenient grace, and sanctification.


Nevertheless, it is my hope that these truths have shed light on how two men, decided on Scripture’s sufficiency, partnered in the Protestant Reformation. While they did not agree with each other on all points of theology, they each sought to extol Scripture’s truths as the sufficient Word of God.Arminius and Calvin: Partners in Reform | Helwys Society Forum


hope this helps !!!
 
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Clare73

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Good, Evil, and God’s Providence
"The problem of God’s relation to sin remains a mystery,’ as Berkhof said. In spite of all the foregoing statements, we have come to the point where we confess that we do not understand how it is that God can ordain that we carry out evil deeds and yet hold us accountable for them and not be blamed himself. We can affirm all these things are true, because Scripture teaches them. But Scripture does not tell us exactly how God brings this situation about or how it can be that God holds us accountable for what he ordains comes to pass."

Above statement made by Calvinist Professor Wayne Grudem in his 'Systematic Theology' (ch. 16). (my emp)
The Bible does not teach God to be an unjust, unfair ogre causing men to do evil then have God punish men for the evil He caused those men to do. This is a problem Calvinism created for itself and not a problem found in God's word.
That is not the problem.

The problem is we are born condemned (Romans 5:18), and the only thing that matters is faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of our sin and right standing with God's justice.
 
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Clare73

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What I've noticed, for what it may be worth in this thread, is that a lot of points can be argued with proof texts and some of them end up glued together better than others. Still, without keeping the texts in their contexts, and without realizing that the New is not in disagreement with the Old Testament and that Jesus Himself was teaching what God had already said (and why would God say something different anyways?), some have taken far too many liberties to get away from what the message from God was to begin with.
So I'd tend to say, no, Calvinism (or any "ism") does not equal the message of the Bible. It is that God in these last days has spoken to us by His Son, Heir of all things, but there is lots of evidence that God continued to convey to us the same message, this time fleshed out in Jesus.
And "fleshed out in Jesus" makes a tremendous difference between the OT and the NT, because what they were required to do is now fleshed-out in Jesus, in whom we are and have received what is fleshed-out in him--sonship.
 
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Saint Steven

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I'm not a Calvanist, however, everyone of his doctrinal points can be shown in scripture...I just think Lutherans are a bit more balanced.
Oh my. I'm wondering what we should conclude about that. - lol
 
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Sure, because Calvin is a new member of the trinity.

Astute observation of a tradition's unscrupulous bundling of their doctrine and God's will as being the same thing. Nice coincidence, not the only of it's kind.
Calvin's view of a minister (and this would include himself) as one who recognises that the church's foundation is Christ, that one minister might plant the seed, and other ministers and pastors water it; but it is God who causes the growth.

All a minister or pastor can do is to prepare the ground for the seed, weed it and water it as the seed grows into a plant which eventually bears fruit. The minister cannot cause the church to bear fruit - winning of souls to Christ, growth in grace of believers. Only God can achieve that.

All the pastor can do is to hold and use the watering can. And that is all Calvin sees himself to be, nothing more.

When one actually reads Calvin himself, one sees it quite clearly. As the Scripture asks: "Who is Paul, who is Apollos? Who is Calvin? Who is your pastor?" The Scriptural answer is: "Servants of God who bring you to faith in Christ." Nothing more.

Anything else is idolatrous hero worship - putting man in the place of Christ.
 
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renniks

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It's not about free will, it's about dispostion--preferences, which governs the will.
We choose what we prefer.

The Holy Spirit works in the disposition, giving us to prefer the things of God, which the will then freely and willingly chooses.
I wish. But we still have that darn Free Will.
 
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