No, the riot at the Capitol on Jan. 6 wasn’t a ‘completely peaceful protest’

renniks · Jun 8, 2021

How about all those who simply entered when there were no barricades? You are avoiding the question. Violence insinuates breaking and entering in the least.

iarwain · Jun 8, 2021

renniks said:
I kept hearing during the BLM riots that property damage isn't violence.

Some leftists even advocated for violence. Remember Chris Cuomo saying "show me where it says protesters are supposed to be polite and peaceful".

Derek1234 · Jun 9, 2021

renniks said:
I can imagine it because it's standard language for standing up for what you believe in.
He didn't endorse violence as the current vice president did when she endorsed " unrest in the streets."

I'll ignore the comment on Kamala Harris as (a) more whataboutery and (b) since I'm not aware she said it. It could be this you're referring to, in which case she didn't say what people think she said.

Fact check: Kamala Harris said she supports protests, not ‘riots’, in Late Show clip

But why did Trump say what he said specifically? Well. You have one take, that's conspicuously favourable to Trump. I imagine he talked about peaceful protests because he had been told that anything else would certainly be incitement, rather than borderline incitement. Further, he did not urge his supporters to stand down until the Capitol had already been breached. Do you really imagine that he wasn't watching the mess unfold? Do you really think any other president in our living memory would have done the same?

I have to admit, I'm struggling to believe that he wasn't chuckling to himself.

renniks · Jun 9, 2021

Derek1234 said:
But why did Trump say what he said specifically? Well. You have one take, that's conspicuously favourable to Trump. I imagine he talked about peaceful protests because he had been told that anything else would certainly be incitement, rather than borderline incitement.

Imagine all you want. Doesn't change the facts.

tulc · Jun 9, 2021

renniks said:
Imagine all you want. Doesn't change the facts.

...and the facts are: Trump supporters attacked the Capitol, smashed windows and doors to get into the building, chanted about hanging the vice-President and others and spread feces on the walls and floors in the building. Those are all facts.
tulc(just pointing out some facts that aren't imaginary)

Yarddog · Jun 9, 2021

renniks said:
How about all those who simply entered when there were no barricades?

They were like the people, in last summer's riots, that entered into stores after the windows were smashed but didn't steal anything.

You are avoiding the question. Violence insinuates breaking and entering in the least.

Yes, those that stormed the Capitol Building were violent rioting insurrectionists. Those that saw those idiots and stayed outside the barricades or left were not rioters but were legal protesters.

Derek1234 · Jun 9, 2021

renniks said:
Imagine all you want. Doesn't change the facts.

That's a powerful, well-argued reply.

OK, so here are the facts without any interpolation. Tell me where I am going wrong.

1. Kamala Harris (who was not even VP at the time) did not call for riots.
2. Trump continued to claim that he had been fraudulently denied victory, even though multiple courts in multiple states found against his claims, including Republican states.
3. Trump exhorted Mike Pence to show "extreme courage" and send "them" [whatever that meant] to the states because the states were keen to correct their error.
4. Trump - perhaps blissfully unaware of the Proud Boys' march to Washington DC - called for people to "peacefully and patriotically" make their voices heard.
5. Less than one hour later, his supporters erect a gallows outside the Capitol. Some supporters - perhaps different ones - are later heard calling for the VP to be hanged. Trump tweets saying that Mike Pence had lacked courage.
6. Trump tells his supporters to "fight like hell"
7. Barely half an hour later, the capitol is breached, and LEOs say there is an effective riot.
8. Barely an hour after Trumo has finished his speech, protesters start smashing up various parts of the Senate.
9. Trump's office confirms he received a call at 1426 lasting for four minutes. It's possible - but only logically possible, not likely - that his office did not mention that the VP had been evacuated.
10. At 1513 - 47 minutes later - Trump tweets asking his supporters to "remain [sic] peaceful"
11. Over one hour later, he tweets and tells people to go home. He claims that the election was stolen.
12. Police confirm Ashli Babbitt has died. Trump tweets again, fifteen minutes later, saying "these are the things and events that happen when a sacred landslide victory is so viciously & unceremoniously stripped away from the great patriots [...] Remember this day forever"

Please explain whether this is wrong in any way, and - if so - how. And if you're up for it, explain how you see this as evidence of him faithfully executing the Office of the President of the USA, and to the best of his ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution. Thanks in advance.

renniks · Jun 9, 2021

tulc said:
...and the facts are: Trump supporters attacked the Capitol, smashed windows and doors to get into the building, chanted about hanging the vice-President and others and spread feces on the walls and floors in the building. Those are all facts.
tulc(just pointing out some facts that aren't imaginary)

But were never encouraged by trump to do any of that.

renniks · Jun 9, 2021

Derek1234 said:
That's a powerful, well-argued reply.

OK, so here are the facts without any interpolation. Tell me where I am going wrong.

1. Kamala Harris (who was not even VP at the time) did not call for riots.
2. Trump continued to claim that he had been fraudulently denied victory, even though multiple courts in multiple states found against his claims, including Republican states.
3. Trump exhorted Mike Pence to show "extreme courage" and send "them" [whatever that meant] to the states because the states were keen to correct their error.
4. Trump - perhaps blissfully unaware of the Proud Boys' march to Washington DC - called for people to "peacefully and patriotically" make their voices heard.
5. Less than one hour later, his supporters erect a gallows outside the Capitol. Some supporters - perhaps different ones - are later heard calling for the VP to be hanged. Trump tweets saying that Mike Pence had lacked courage.
6. Trump tells his supporters to "fight like hell"
7. Barely half an hour later, the capitol is breached, and LEOs say there is an effective riot.
8. Barely an hour after Trumo has finished his speech, protesters start smashing up various parts of the Senate.
9. Trump's office confirms he received a call at 1426 lasting for four minutes. It's possible - but only logically possible, not likely - that his office did not mention that the VP had been evacuated.
10. At 1513 - 47 minutes later - Trump tweets asking his supporters to "remain [sic] peaceful"
11. Over one hour later, he tweets and tells people to go home. He claims that the election was stolen.
12. Police confirm Ashli Babbitt has died. Trump tweets again, fifteen minutes later, saying "these are the things and events that happen when a sacred landslide victory is so viciously & unceremoniously stripped away from the great patriots [...] Remember this day forever"

Please explain whether this is wrong in any way, and - if so - how. And if you're up for it, explain how you see this as evidence of him faithfully executing the Office of the President of the USA, and to the best of his ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution. Thanks in advance.

I'm not defending trump as being a great person or president. I'm just stating the fact that he never called for violence and he did speak against it after it happened.

Harris did endorse " unrest in the streets."

renniks · Jun 9, 2021

Yarddog said:
They were like the people, in last summer's riots, that entered into stores after the windows were smashed but didn't steal anything.

So, non violent law breakers?

Derek1234 · Jun 9, 2021

renniks said:
I'm not defending trump as being a great person or president. I'm just stating the fact that he never called for violence and he did speak against it after it happened.

Harris did endorse " unrest in the streets."

I quoted a reputable factchecker suggesting she didn't say that. But if you can provide a reputable source showing she did, I will retract. Can't say fairer than that.

As to your first point, well, we agree that he wasn't a great person or president (if that's what you're saying). He did not say "I support the use of violence". That's true. But he did tweet "these are the things and events that happen when a sacred landslide victory is so viciously & unceremoniously stripped away from the great patriots [...] Remember this day forever." What do you think he meant when he told people to remember the day forever? Do you think he meant that we should learn from that violence and ensure it never happens again? It's kinda hard to justify that meaning from the preceding context. Actually, I take that back. He did "unequivocally condemn" it. A mere one week after it happened. Purely coincidentally, this was ahead of his trial in the Senate, when notorious anti-Trump partisans like ... erm ... Mitch McConnell had said he was undecided on how to vote.

I really don't know why you're arguing this point. It is self-evident - even from Trump's own words - that the riot wasn't a "completely peaceful protest". Even for people far away, like me, it was harrowing to see how a polarising figurehead presided over a country that could end up in this mess.

In defence of Trump, he does have form for taking time until he has all the facts before making statements. He was pretty speedy, by his standards - just 48 hours - in concluding that there were very good and very bad people on both sides in Charlottesville. Perhaps he was more even-handed than I gave him credit for?

renniks · Jun 9, 2021

Derek1234 said:
really don't know why you're arguing this point. It is self-evident - even from Trump's own words - that the riot wasn't a "completely peaceful protest".

Who said it was?

LizaMarie · Jun 9, 2021

Derek1234 said:
That's a powerful, well-argued reply.

OK, so here are the facts without any interpolation. Tell me where I am going wrong.

1. Kamala Harris (who was not even VP at the time) did not call for riots.
2. Trump continued to claim that he had been fraudulently denied victory, even though multiple courts in multiple states found against his claims, including Republican states.
3. Trump exhorted Mike Pence to show "extreme courage" and send "them" [whatever that meant] to the states because the states were keen to correct their error.
4. Trump - perhaps blissfully unaware of the Proud Boys' march to Washington DC - called for people to "peacefully and patriotically" make their voices heard.
5. Less than one hour later, his supporters erect a gallows outside the Capitol. Some supporters - perhaps different ones - are later heard calling for the VP to be hanged. Trump tweets saying that Mike Pence had lacked courage.
6. Trump tells his supporters to "fight like hell"
7. Barely half an hour later, the capitol is breached, and LEOs say there is an effective riot.
8. Barely an hour after Trumo has finished his speech, protesters start smashing up various parts of the Senate.
9. Trump's office confirms he received a call at 1426 lasting for four minutes. It's possible - but only logically possible, not likely - that his office did not mention that the VP had been evacuated.
10. At 1513 - 47 minutes later - Trump tweets asking his supporters to "remain [sic] peaceful"
11. Over one hour later, he tweets and tells people to go home. He claims that the election was stolen.
12. Police confirm Ashli Babbitt has died. Trump tweets again, fifteen minutes later, saying "these are the things and events that happen when a sacred landslide victory is so viciously & unceremoniously stripped away from the great patriots [...] Remember this day forever"

Please explain whether this is wrong in any way, and - if so - how. And if you're up for it, explain how you see this as evidence of him faithfully executing the Office of the President of the USA, and to the best of his ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution. Thanks in advance.

Conservative Republican here. For this reason, plus much of Trump's behavior after Mid-November- I will in no way vote for him should he be the Republican nominee in 2024 which I hope he isn't. I think he won't be as this(his role in January 6) won't age well. I will have to write someone else in if he is.
His throwing his loyal VP under the bus, a godly Christian man and good American, was the last straw for me. I could go on, but you get the point.

Derek1234 · Jun 9, 2021

renniks said:
Who said it was?

erm ... it's the title of the thread?

Derek1234 · Jun 9, 2021

LizaMarie said:
Conservative Republican here. For this reason, plus much of Trump's behavior after Mid-November- I will in no way vote for him should he be the Republican nominee in 2024 which I hope he isn't. I think he won't be as this(his role in January 6) won't age well. I will have to write someone else in if he is.
His throwing his loyal VP under the bus, a godly Christian man and good American, was the last straw for me. I could go on, but you get the point.

I understand. I'm British, so have no dog in the fight of whether it's a Red or a Blue President next time. From a global good perspective, I hope they're wise. As a Christian, I can but pray for someone who loves God to be in the White House.

renniks · Jun 9, 2021

Derek1234 said:
erm ... it's the title of the thread?

Gasp! Then it must be an authoritative statement? Because someone on the internet said it, according to that article, someone in a blog post.
There was a completely peaceful protest and then there was a breaking and entering. Two different events.
" Insurrection" is going a little too far, IMO. If that's what it was, it was the most lame insurrection in history.

Yarddog · Jun 9, 2021

renniks said:
So, non violent law breakers?

If they did nothing but walk up where they didn't belong, this would be true.

renniks · Jun 9, 2021

Yarddog said:
If they did nothing but walk up where they didn't belong, this would be true.

That would include Mr horns then, and most of the people that were there. People did worse at BLM protests and never got arrested.

Yarddog · Jun 9, 2021

renniks said:
That would include Mr horns then, and most of the people that were there. People did worse at BLM protests and never got arrested.

By Me Horns are you talking about Jacob Chansley, the a shaman?

Anyone who entered the Capitol Building, trying to stop Congress from doing its duty is an insurrectionist and guilty of far worse than those who participated in the riots last summer.

renniks · Jun 9, 2021

Yarddog said:
By Me Horns are you talking about Jacob Chansley, the a shaman?

Anyone who entered the Capitol Building, trying to stop Congress from doing its duty is an insurrectionist and guilty of far worse than those who participated in the riots last summer.

Looked to me like Mr horns and others just wanted a photo op. Only a small percentage of the so called rioters actually did anything violent.

No, the riot at the Capitol on Jan. 6 wasn’t a ‘completely peaceful protest’

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