Lineage of Mary, mother of Jesus

Randy777 · May 10, 2021

Elizabeth was called a daughter/descendant of Aaron. Gabriel informed Mary that her relative was in her 6 month of pregnancy. That suggests Mary was also a daughter of Aaron.

In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron

Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month.

BeyondET · May 10, 2021

The writers did not say in laws, that was coined around 14th century. thus Luke’s account Heli was Joseph father in law. Joseph is the king lineage spiritual and Mary the physical linage yet both being of the same physical descendant.

prodromos · May 11, 2021

BeyondET said:
The writers did not say in laws, that was coined around 14th century. thus Luke’s account Heli was Joseph father in law. Joseph is the king lineage spiritual and Mary the physical linage yet both being of the same physical descendant.

Neither did they call the bride's father, the father of the groom. Heli and Jacob were born of the same mother, but with different fathers as their mother remarried after becoming widowed. One of the brothers married, but died before producing an heir, so his brother raised up seed for his brother in accordance with Hebrew tradition. Thus Joseph had two fathers, one according to the law and one according to the flesh.

BeyondET · May 11, 2021

prodromos said:
Neither did they call the bride's father, the father of the groom. Heli and Jacob were born of the same mother, but with different fathers as their mother remarried after becoming widowed. One of the brothers married, but died before producing an heir, so his brother raised up seed for his brother in accordance with Hebrew tradition. Thus Joseph had two fathers, one according to the law and one according to the flesh.

Hmm I have not read on that, is that in generations or somewhere else.

Scripture had them listed back to David

The Liturgist · Jun 8, 2021

Victory123 said:
Luke 3:23 is where Miriam's(Mary's) lineage is revealed. Mary's Father's name was Heli.
Luke 3:23
The Genealogy of Jesus Christ
23 Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, the son of Heli,
This means when called the son of Joseph- it is supposed by all. Then says son of Heli, this means though he is presumed the son of Joseph by all, he is the son of Heli, meaning lineage. This therefore, is how He is the Son of David and seed of Jacob and it is through His Mother that he is by flesh. This will give greater understanding of Jacob's ladder. For it is in Mary that the promise to Abraham is fulfilled. This is clear in scripture:

Mary’s geneaology
Mary Heli Matthat Levi Melchi Janna Joseph Mattathiah (Mattathias) Amos Nahum Esli Naggai Maath Mattathiah (Mattathias) Semei Joseph Judah Joannas (Joanna) Rhesa Zerubbabel Shealtiel Neri Melchi Addi Cosam Elmodam Er Jose Eliezer Jorim Matthat Levi Simeon Judah Joseph Jona Eliakim Melea Menan Mattathah Nathan KING DAVID Jesse Obed Boaz Salmon Nahshon Amminadab Ram Hezron Perez Judah Jacob Isaac ABRAHAM Terah Nahor Serug Reu Peleg Eber Shelah Cainan Arphaxad Shem NOAH Lamech Methuselah Enoch Jared Mahalalel (Mahalaleel) Cainan Enosh (Enos) Seth ADAM (created by God).
His adopted father's lineage:
Matthew 1:1-17
The Genealogy of Jesus Christ
1 The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham:

2 Abraham begot Isaac, Isaac begot Jacob, and Jacob begot Judah and his brothers. 3 Judah begot Perez and Zerah by Tamar, Perez begot Hezron, and Hezron begot Ram. 4 Ram begot Amminadab, Amminadab begot Nahshon, and Nahshon begot Salmon. 5 Salmon begot Boaz by Rahab, Boaz begot Obed by Ruth, Obed begot Jesse, 6 and Jesse begot David the king.

David the king begot Solomon by her who had been the wife of Uriah. 7 Solomon begot Rehoboam, Rehoboam begot Abijah, and Abijah begot Asa.8 Asa begot Jehoshaphat, Jehoshaphat begot Joram, and Joram begot Uzziah. 9 Uzziah begot Jotham, Jotham begot Ahaz, and Ahaz begot Hezekiah. 10 Hezekiah begot Manasseh, Manasseh begot Amon, and Amon begot Josiah. 11 Josiah begot Jeconiah and his brothers about the time they were carried away to Babylon.

12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jeconiah begot Shealtiel, and Shealtiel begot Zerubbabel. 13 Zerubbabel begot Abiud, Abiud begot Eliakim, and Eliakim begot Azor. 14 Azor begot Zadok, Zadok begot Achim, and Achim begot Eliud. 15 Eliud begot Eleazar, Eleazar begot Matthan, and Matthan begot Jacob. 16 And Jacob begot Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus who is called Christ.

17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations, from David until the captivity in Babylon are fourteen generations, and from the captivity in Babylon until the Christ are fourteen generations.

THEREFORE BY FLESH AND ADOPTION HE IS A DESCENDANT of King David, but by flesh through MARY.

Actually the blessed Virgin Mary, the Theotokos and Mother of God, is the daughter of Saints Joachim and Anna.

The Liturgist · Jun 8, 2021

Yekcidmij said:
Do you at least have another source besides the Gospel of James?

The Synaxaria and the liturgical texts of the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox churches read on the feasts of the Nativity of the Theotokos and of Sts. Joachim and Anna, and indeed the text of the Divine Liturgies of St. James (JAS) St. Basil (ByzBAS) St. Mark and St. John Chrysostom, (CHR) which all predate the Gelasian Canon of 490 and which in the case of ByzBAS, and JAS and the St. Mark liturgy, predate the Athanasian canon.

The Liturgist · Jun 8, 2021

JackRT said:
After a thousand years and 28 generations practically every living Jew could claim some relationship to David. Well, except for the Ethiopian Jews.

Actually that’s completely in error, because the Ethiopian Jews are descended from King Solomon and the Ethiopian monarch popularly called Queen Candace or the Queen of Sheba. See the Ethiopian Book of Kings. This is also why Ge’ez scholarship is so important and why a number of otherwise fragmentary or lost Old Testament apocryphal books are preserved in Ge’ez manuscripts.

ewq1938 · Dec 20, 2021

Mary is linked directly to David:

Mat 1:15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;
Mat 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

Joseph's father was Jacob, not Heli. This means Luke is actually giving the genealogy of Mary not Joseph. Being the son of Joseph there means a son through marriage. "as was supposed" means he entered the family through marriage as a step-son calling Mary's father his own father. Heli is Mary's father.

Take note that Matthew uses begat for the birth of Joseph but Luke uses "as was supposed" when calling him a son of Heli. That's not a birth father. Jacob begat Joseph. That is his birth father.

Barnes:

As was supposed - As was commonly thought, or perhaps being legally reckoned as his son.

Clarke:

As the Hebrews never permitted women to enter into their genealogical tables, whenever a family happened to end with a daughter, instead of naming her in the genealogy, they inserted her husband, as the son of him who was, in reality, but his father-in-law.

Gill:

Which was the son of Eli; meaning, not that Joseph was the son of Eli; for he was the son of Jacob, according to Mat_1:16, but Jesus was the son of Eli; and which must be understood, and carried through the whole genealogy, as thus; Jesus the son of Matthat, Jesus the son of Levi, Jesus the son of Melchi, &c. till you come to Jesus the son of Adam, and Jesus the Son of God; though it is true indeed that Joseph was the son of Eli, having married his daughter; Mary was the daughter of Eli: and so the Jews speak of one Mary, the daughter of Eli, by whom they seem to design the mother of our Lord:

Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
Luk 3:24 Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph,
Luk 3:25 Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge,
Luk 3:26 Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda,
Luk 3:27 Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri,
Luk 3:28 Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam, which was the son of Er,
Luk 3:29 Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi,
Luk 3:30 Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eliakim,
Luk 3:31 Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David,
Luk 3:32 Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which was the son of Naasson,
Luk 3:33 Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares, which was the son of Juda,
Luk 3:34 Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor,
Luk 3:35 Which was the son of Saruch, which was the son of Ragau, which was the son of Phalec, which was the son of Heber, which was the son of Sala,
Luk 3:36 Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe, which was the son of Lamech,
Luk 3:37 Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,
Luk 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Mary is related to David so that is a link through his mother. He also has a link through his Father, God:

Luk 1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,

Luk 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

Luk 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Luk 1:29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.

Luk 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

David being Jesus' father here just means an ancestor, like great great great great grandfather or something similar. The DNA God sent via the Holy Spirit was what directly tied Jesus to David through his Father.

How Jesus is related to David through his mother:

Jesus, Joseph (Mary), Heli, Matthat, Levi, Melchi, Janna, Joseph, Mattathias, Amos, Naum, Esli, Nagge, Maath, Mattathias, Semei, Joseph, Juda, Joanna, Rhesa, Zorobabel, Salathiel, Neri, Melchi, Addi, Cosam, Elmodam, Er, Jose Eliezer, Jorim, Matthat, Levi, Simeon, Juda, Joseph, Jonan, Eliakim, Melea, Menan, Mattatha, Nathan, David, Jesse, Obed, Booz, Salmon, Naason, Aminadab, Aram, Esrom, Phares, Juda, Jacob, Isaac, Abraham, Thara, Nachor, Saruch, Ragau, Phalec, Heber, Sala, Cainan, Arphaxad, Sem, Noe, Lamech, Mathusala, Enoch, Jared, Maleleel, Cainan, Enos, Seth, Adam.

Look at that list which includes David, Juda (Judah), Jacob, Abraham, Noe (Noah), Mathusala, Enoch, Seth and Adam. That's an impressive genealogy! No wonder God chose Mary to birth his Son!

Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
Luk 3:24 Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph,
Luk 3:25 Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge,
Luk 3:26 Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda,
Luk 3:27 Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri,
Luk 3:28 Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam, which was the son of Er,
Luk 3:29 Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi,
Luk 3:30 Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eliakim,
Luk 3:31 Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David,
Luk 3:32 Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which was the son of Naasson,
Luk 3:33 Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares, which was the son of Juda,
Luk 3:34 Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor,
Luk 3:35 Which was the son of Saruch, which was the son of Ragau, which was the son of Phalec, which was the son of Heber, which was the son of Sala,
Luk 3:36 Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe, which was the son of Lamech,
Luk 3:37 Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,
Luk 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

The Liturgist · Dec 20, 2021

ewq1938 said:
Mary is linked directly to David:

Mat 1:15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;
Mat 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

Joseph's father was Jacob, not Heli. This means Luke is actually giving the genealogy of Mary not Joseph. Being the son of Joseph there means a son through marriage. "as was supposed" means he entered the family through marriage as a step-son calling Mary's father his own father. Heli is Mary's father.

Take note that Matthew uses begat for the birth of Joseph but Luke uses "as was supposed" when calling him a son of Heli. That's not a birth father. Jacob begat Joseph. That is his birth father.

Barnes:

As was supposed - As was commonly thought, or perhaps being legally reckoned as his son.

Clarke:

As the Hebrews never permitted women to enter into their genealogical tables, whenever a family happened to end with a daughter, instead of naming her in the genealogy, they inserted her husband, as the son of him who was, in reality, but his father-in-law.

Gill:

Which was the son of Eli; meaning, not that Joseph was the son of Eli; for he was the son of Jacob, according to Mat_1:16, but Jesus was the son of Eli; and which must be understood, and carried through the whole genealogy, as thus; Jesus the son of Matthat, Jesus the son of Levi, Jesus the son of Melchi, &c. till you come to Jesus the son of Adam, and Jesus the Son of God; though it is true indeed that Joseph was the son of Eli, having married his daughter; Mary was the daughter of Eli: and so the Jews speak of one Mary, the daughter of Eli, by whom they seem to design the mother of our Lord:

Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
Luk 3:24 Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph,
Luk 3:25 Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge,
Luk 3:26 Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda,
Luk 3:27 Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri,
Luk 3:28 Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam, which was the son of Er,
Luk 3:29 Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi,
Luk 3:30 Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eliakim,
Luk 3:31 Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David,
Luk 3:32 Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which was the son of Naasson,
Luk 3:33 Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares, which was the son of Juda,
Luk 3:34 Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor,
Luk 3:35 Which was the son of Saruch, which was the son of Ragau, which was the son of Phalec, which was the son of Heber, which was the son of Sala,
Luk 3:36 Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe, which was the son of Lamech,
Luk 3:37 Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,
Luk 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Mary is related to David so that is a link through his mother. He also has a link through his Father, God:

Luk 1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,

Luk 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

Luk 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Luk 1:29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.

Luk 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

David being Jesus' father here just means an ancestor, like great great great great grandfather or something similar. The DNA God sent via the Holy Spirit was what directly tied Jesus to David through his Father.

How Jesus is related to David through his mother:

Jesus, Joseph (Mary), Heli, Matthat, Levi, Melchi, Janna, Joseph, Mattathias, Amos, Naum, Esli, Nagge, Maath, Mattathias, Semei, Joseph, Juda, Joanna, Rhesa, Zorobabel, Salathiel, Neri, Melchi, Addi, Cosam, Elmodam, Er, Jose Eliezer, Jorim, Matthat, Levi, Simeon, Juda, Joseph, Jonan, Eliakim, Melea, Menan, Mattatha, Nathan, David, Jesse, Obed, Booz, Salmon, Naason, Aminadab, Aram, Esrom, Phares, Juda, Jacob, Isaac, Abraham, Thara, Nachor, Saruch, Ragau, Phalec, Heber, Sala, Cainan, Arphaxad, Sem, Noe, Lamech, Mathusala, Enoch, Jared, Maleleel, Cainan, Enos, Seth, Adam.

Look at that list which includes David, Juda (Judah), Jacob, Abraham, Noe (Noah), Mathusala, Enoch, Seth and Adam. That's an impressive genealogy! No wonder God chose Mary to birth his Son!

Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
Luk 3:24 Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph,
Luk 3:25 Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge,
Luk 3:26 Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda,
Luk 3:27 Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri,
Luk 3:28 Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam, which was the son of Er,
Luk 3:29 Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi,
Luk 3:30 Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eliakim,
Luk 3:31 Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David,
Luk 3:32 Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which was the son of Naasson,
Luk 3:33 Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares, which was the son of Juda,
Luk 3:34 Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor,
Luk 3:35 Which was the son of Saruch, which was the son of Ragau, which was the son of Phalec, which was the son of Heber, which was the son of Sala,
Luk 3:36 Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe, which was the son of Lamech,
Luk 3:37 Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,
Luk 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

That’s a very logical explanation of the variance between the genealogies in Matthew and Luke, which I like a lot!

However, do we really need to say what the DNA of our Lord was? I mean, obviously He had it, being fully human, and it could well have been that of St. Joseph, but this seems to me to be a mystery which we cannot definitely answer other than to say that under Chalcedonian, Miaphysite or Nestorian Christology, it would be entirely normal and be 50% from the Blessed Virgin.

My main fear of saying the paternal DNA was defintely St. Joseph is that it could if it became widely accepted, lead to an undermining of the doctrine of the divine patrimony of our Lord and His conception by the Holy Spirit, and such things fuel Unitarianism. And you know, frighteningly, Unitarianism is growing.

This all being said, I think you are probably right about the paternal DNA being that of Joseph, because this resolves the conflicting genealogies, and it is within the power of God the Holy Spirit to take or even duplicate DNA from a man and then cause an embryo to be conceived with that genetic material. Other possibilities that had occurred to me was the paternal DNA was that of Adam, or a composite of all human DNA, or that the DNA was entirely that of St. Mary, but then I realized that this is not revealed to us. But I do like your model. How would you protect against people however distorting it into “Oh, he was just the son of Joseph and the verses to the contrary were a later embellishment?”

ewq1938 · Dec 20, 2021

The Liturgist said:
That’s a very logical explanation of the variance between the genealogies in Matthew and Luke, which I like a lot!

Thanks.

However, do we really need to say what the DNA of our Lord was?

Well, we know how conception works and Christ was 100 percent human so God the Father had to use an appropriate and compatible DNA etc to fulfill the part of the process that comes from the male parent. I'm trying to be careful by avoiding more direct scientific language so I am using "DNA" instead.

My main fear of saying the paternal DNA was defintely St. Joseph is that it could if it became widely accepted, lead to an undermining of the doctrine of the divine patrimony of our Lord and His conception by the Holy Spirit, and such things fuel Unitarianism. And you know, frighteningly, Unitarianism is growing.

Yes, which is why it's important to prove Joseph was a step-father not a true birth father.

This all being said, I think you are probably right about the paternal DNA being that of Joseph, because this resolves the conflicting genealogies, and it is within the power of God the Holy Spirit to take or even duplicate DNA from a man and then cause an embryo to be conceived with that genetic material.

Yeah but IMO that is too close to Joseph being the actual father of Christ instead of God the Father being his true father. This part is definitely a mystery that is not for us to fully understand until another time.

Other possibilities that had occurred to me was the paternal DNA was that of Adam, or a composite of all human DNA, or that the DNA was entirely that of St. Mary, but then I realized that this is not revealed to us. But I do like your model.

Will be great to have it revealed

How would you protect against people however distorting it into “Oh, he was just the son of Joseph and the verses to the contrary were a later embellishment?”

A bible full of embellishments is not something to believe in. There isn't any evidence of that anyways.

The Liturgist · Dec 20, 2021

ewq1938 said:
A bible full of embellishments is not something to believe in. There isn't any evidence of that anyways.

Indeed, my main concern is how 17th century rationalism inadvertently lead to 18th century Deism and Unitarianism of the sort we see in Boston that caused the schism in my denomination between the Congregationalist Christians and the nominally Christian Unitarians, who by reducing Christ our Lord God and Savior to a mere philosopher, in stages, which we see in a more ostensibly psuedo sola scriptura sense in Soccinius and later in the likes of William Ellery Channing, and in a more deistic sense in Thomas Jefferson and his appalling “Jefferson Bible” which he intended to use to convert the Native Americans by removing what he called the “Priestcraft.” And then this in turn, with Christ demoted to a mere philosopher, lead to William Ellery Channing attempting, as a Unitarian reverend, in the mid 19th century, to de-Christianize the Unitarians, at which he at the time failed, and he resigned after a decade or so, but fast forward to the present, when the Unitarian Universalist Association has become fully post-Christian and is growing while many Christian churches in the US are shrinking. And Congregationalism in particular has been devastated because the majority of the churches joined the UCC, which became radically liberal, alienating entire congregations, and many individual laity, and failing to learn from it, being sort of stuck between the larger and more moderate mainline churches and the Unitarians.

So, hopefully, because of the unfortunate history of my denomination (from my perspective as an ultra high church/evangelical catholic traditionalist) I hope you can appreciate the reasons behind my paranoia over certain forms of rational explanations, which I privately agree with, but worry about distortion.

But please don’t get me wrong: your theory about the relationship of the genealogies in the Gospels of St. Matthew and St. Luke is the most convincing one I have read. It may amuse you to note that, contrary to what you might expect of its premillennial dispensationalist fundamentalist editors (mostly Baptist and Presbyterian, but with a Methodist), the King James Study Bible just admits the two genealogies are “difficult to reconcile” and then very weekly presents a few ideas, but it does not address the issue with the usual super-abundance of confidence one finds elsewhere in its commentary. And in seminary I can’t recall any discussion of the issue. The texts were often to be found in the traditional one year lectionaries, but I am pretty sure the Revised Common Lectionary which we were using by then had dropped them.

ewq1938 · Dec 20, 2021

The Liturgist said:
But please don’t get me wrong: your theory about the relationship of the genealogies in the Gospels of St. Matthew and St. Luke is the most convincing one I have read.

I'm happy to hear that. I had read something on this topic and went to a folder on my computer where I keep things I have written on biblical subjects and found something I had on this but it wasn't very complete and didn't make the points very well so I re-wrote it all and spent more time breaking down Luke's genealogy list so it was easier to view. I had never really taken much time to really look at all the really important names in that list.

It may amuse you to note that, contrary to what you might expect of its premillennial dispensationalist fundamentalist editors (mostly Baptist and Presbyterian, but with a Methodist), the King James Study Bible just admits the two genealogies are “difficult to reconcile” and then very weekly presents a few ideas, but it does not address the issue with the usual super-abundance of confidence one finds elsewhere in its commentary. And in seminary I can’t recall any discussion of the issue. The texts were often to be found in the traditional one year lectionaries, but I am pretty sure the Revised Common Lectionary which we were using by then had dropped them.

That's interesting. I didn't know that about the KJV, and have never been in seminary so I find the lack of discussion of this topic there also interesting.

The Liturgist · Dec 21, 2021

ewq1938 said:
That's interesting. I didn't know that about the KJV, and have never been in seminary so I find the lack of discussion of this topic there also interesting.

Its specifically the Thomas Nelson KJV Study Bible.

ewq1938 · Dec 21, 2021

The Liturgist said:
Its specifically the Thomas Nelson KJV Study Bible.

Are you saying that is the preferred bible in Seminary?

prodromos · Dec 21, 2021

ewq1938 said:
Take note that Matthew uses begat for the birth of Joseph but Luke uses "as was supposed" when calling him a son of Heli. That's not a birth father. Jacob begat Joseph. That is his birth father.

The "as was supposed" was with reference to Jesus being the son of Joseph, not Joseph's relationship to his father Heli.

prodromos · Dec 21, 2021

ewq1938 said:
Clarke:

As the Hebrews never permitted women to enter into their genealogical tables

That would be news to Matthew.

The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
Abraham was the father of Isaac, and Isaac the father of Jacob, and Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers, and Judah the father of Perez and Zerah by Tamar, and Perez the father of Hezron, and Hezron the father of Ram, and Ram the father of Ammin′adab, and Ammin′adab the father of Nahshon, and Nahshon the father of Salmon, and Salmon the father of Bo′az by Rahab, and Bo′az the father of Obed by Ruth, and Obed the father of Jesse, and Jesse the father of David the king. And David was the father of Solomon by the wife of Uri′ah

The Liturgist · Dec 21, 2021

ewq1938 said:
Are you saying that is the preferred bible in Seminary?

Not in any seminary I’ve heard of. Remember seminaries teach quite a bit about scripture, and people entering an MDiv program can find it challenging if they did not take some bible courses during their bachelors.

By the way, I wrote a long post on seminaries and the education and spiritual formation of clergy, inspired by this thread but offtopic, here: The Making of Ministers: Seminaries and Spiritual Formation

Michael S. Blanchard · Feb 14, 2022

Heart2Soul said:
I was just reading through the 1st chapter of Matthew and all the begats and I read something I never paid attention to before. Joseph, Mary's husband is a descendant of King David not Mary. So I was trying to find what Lineage Mary is from. I can't find it, even when I did a web search. So who is Mary a descendant of?

It does not matter. Mary was a pure vessel for Gods purpose.

ha-adamah · Feb 23, 2022

Heart2Soul said:
I was just reading through the 1st chapter of Matthew and all the begats and I read something I never paid attention to before. Joseph, Mary's husband is a descendant of King David not Mary. So I was trying to find what Lineage Mary is from. I can't find it, even when I did a web search. So who is Mary a descendant of?

Mary's lineage is mostly legendary. We don't have good sources on this.

One thing is certain: she was not of the tribe of Judah. She was a cousin of Elizabeth, tribe of Levi.

Michael S. Blanchard · Feb 23, 2022

ha-adamah said:
Mary's lineage is mostly legendary. We don't have good sources on this.

One thing is certain: she was not of the tribe of Judah. She was a cousin of Elizabeth, tribe of Levi.

That means ...She was Jewish!! A virgin,(essential). Tribe of Levi, tribe of Benjamin, Most important, the tribe of Judah, and, also the country of Judah. Israel was "next door", all the way East along the Mediterranean Sea. P.S. Jesus was of the lineage of David, The Key of David exists to this day. It has to exist. It is the throne that Jesus will return to when he comes back to rule the Earth.

Lineage of Mary, mother of Jesus

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