Queen of heaven

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Good Day,

I would agree with Hippolytus Treatise on Christ and Antichrist 61

61. By the woman then clothed with the sun, he meant most manifestly the Church, endued with the Father's word, whose brightness is above the sun. And by the moon under her feet he referred to her being adorned, like the moon, with heavenly glory. And the words, upon her head a crown of twelve stars, refer to the twelve apostles by whom the Church was founded. And those, she, being with child, cries, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered, mean that the Church will not cease to bear from her heart the Word that is persecuted by the unbelieving in the world. And she brought forth, he says, a man-child, who is to rule all the nations; by which is meant that the Church, always bringing forth Christ, the perfect man-child of God, who is declared to be God and man, becomes the instructor of all the nations. And the words, her child was caught up unto God and to His throne, signify that he who is always born of her is a heavenly king, and not an earthly; even as David also declared of old when he said, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand, until I make Your enemies Your footstool. And the dragon, he says, saw and persecuted the woman which brought forth the man- child. And to the woman were given two wings of the great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church, which flees from city to city, and seeks conceal-meat in the wilderness among the mountains, possessed of no other defense than the two wings of the great eagle, that is to say, the faith of Jesus Christ, who, in stretching forth His holy hands on the holy tree, unfolded two wings, the right and the left, and called to Him all who believed upon Him, and covered them as a hen her chickens. For by the mouth of Malachi also He speaks thus: And unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in His wings.

In Him,

Bill
 
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Good Day,

I would agree with Hippolytus Treatise on Christ and Antichrist 61

61. By the woman then clothed with the sun, he meant most manifestly the Church, endued with the Father's word, whose brightness is above the sun. And by the moon under her feet he referred to her being adorned, like the moon, with heavenly glory. And the words, upon her head a crown of twelve stars, refer to the twelve apostles by whom the Church was founded. And those, she, being with child, cries, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered, mean that the Church will not cease to bear from her heart the Word that is persecuted by the unbelieving in the world. And she brought forth, he says, a man-child, who is to rule all the nations; by which is meant that the Church, always bringing forth Christ, the perfect man-child of God, who is declared to be God and man, becomes the instructor of all the nations. And the words, her child was caught up unto God and to His throne, signify that he who is always born of her is a heavenly king, and not an earthly; even as David also declared of old when he said, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand, until I make Your enemies Your footstool. And the dragon, he says, saw and persecuted the woman which brought forth the man- child. And to the woman were given two wings of the great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church, which flees from city to city, and seeks conceal-meat in the wilderness among the mountains, possessed of no other defense than the two wings of the great eagle, that is to say, the faith of Jesus Christ, who, in stretching forth His holy hands on the holy tree, unfolded two wings, the right and the left, and called to Him all who believed upon Him, and covered them as a hen her chickens. For by the mouth of Malachi also He speaks thus: And unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in His wings.

In Him,

Bill

Definitely makes sense to me.
 
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dóxatotheó

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Good Day,

I would agree with Hippolytus Treatise on Christ and Antichrist 61

61. By the woman then clothed with the sun, he meant most manifestly the Church, endued with the Father's word, whose brightness is above the sun. And by the moon under her feet he referred to her being adorned, like the moon, with heavenly glory. And the words, upon her head a crown of twelve stars, refer to the twelve apostles by whom the Church was founded. And those, she, being with child, cries, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered, mean that the Church will not cease to bear from her heart the Word that is persecuted by the unbelieving in the world. And she brought forth, he says, a man-child, who is to rule all the nations; by which is meant that the Church, always bringing forth Christ, the perfect man-child of God, who is declared to be God and man, becomes the instructor of all the nations. And the words, her child was caught up unto God and to His throne, signify that he who is always born of her is a heavenly king, and not an earthly; even as David also declared of old when he said, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand, until I make Your enemies Your footstool. And the dragon, he says, saw and persecuted the woman which brought forth the man- child. And to the woman were given two wings of the great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church, which flees from city to city, and seeks conceal-meat in the wilderness among the mountains, possessed of no other defense than the two wings of the great eagle, that is to say, the faith of Jesus Christ, who, in stretching forth His holy hands on the holy tree, unfolded two wings, the right and the left, and called to Him all who believed upon Him, and covered them as a hen her chickens. For by the mouth of Malachi also He speaks thus: And unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in His wings.

In Him,

Bill
Some commentators are of the opinion that the woman represents the church. Because the woman
appears as a heavenly sign, Ladd understands the woman as the “ideal church in heaven”. This, however,
makes no sense of the woman‟s man-child, who surely belongs to earth, as Ladd himself admits In the
words of Smith, verses 1 and 2 cover a period of time beginning just previously to the opening of the Christian
Era, when the church was earnestly longing for and expecting the advent of the Messiah, and extending to the
full establishment of the gospel church with its crown of twelve apostles (Luke 2:25, 26, 38). In his
argument, the woman, the church, had the moon under her feet; that is, the Mosaic period had just ended, and
the woman was clothed with the light of the gospel sun, which had just risen If the argument is right, then by anticipation the church is represented as fully organized, with its
twelve apostles, before the man child, Christ, appeared upon the scene. He concludes by saying “there is no
ground for misunderstanding the passage; and hence no violence is done to a correct system of interpretation by
this representation” . However, “the woman could not possibly be the church as some try to interpret her,
since the church did not bring Christ into the world, but Christ brought the Church”. The reference to Church has to do with New Testament Apostolic Era.
 
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Good Day,

I would agree with Hippolytus Treatise on Christ and Antichrist 61

61. By the woman then clothed with the sun, he meant most manifestly the Church, endued with the Father's word, whose brightness is above the sun. And by the moon under her feet he referred to her being adorned, like the moon, with heavenly glory. And the words, upon her head a crown of twelve stars, refer to the twelve apostles by whom the Church was founded. And those, she, being with child, cries, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered, mean that the Church will not cease to bear from her heart the Word that is persecuted by the unbelieving in the world. And she brought forth, he says, a man-child, who is to rule all the nations; by which is meant that the Church, always bringing forth Christ, the perfect man-child of God, who is declared to be God and man, becomes the instructor of all the nations. And the words, her child was caught up unto God and to His throne, signify that he who is always born of her is a heavenly king, and not an earthly; even as David also declared of old when he said, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand, until I make Your enemies Your footstool. And the dragon, he says, saw and persecuted the woman which brought forth the man- child. And to the woman were given two wings of the great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church, which flees from city to city, and seeks conceal-meat in the wilderness among the mountains, possessed of no other defense than the two wings of the great eagle, that is to say, the faith of Jesus Christ, who, in stretching forth His holy hands on the holy tree, unfolded two wings, the right and the left, and called to Him all who believed upon Him, and covered them as a hen her chickens. For by the mouth of Malachi also He speaks thus: And unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in His wings.

In Him,

Bill

Among the earliest commentators who see Mary as the fascinating woman of the Book of Revelation are Cassiodorus (who
says the woman is the "Mother of Jesus") and Oecumenius (who
is the clearest early witness to such an interpretation) and then
Pseudo-Epiphanius. Earlier, Clement of Alexandria had identified Mary with the Virgin Church, but he was not commenting
on the Book of Revelation. In Irenaeus of Lyon there is an explicit identification of Mary as the New Eve. This may be deduced from Genesis 3:15, a text that is implicit in Revelation 12.
Contemporary scholars who see the woman as Mary do
so by saying it is a secondary referent. They are Jean-Louis
D'Aragon, S.].;JohnJ. Scullion, S.J.; Max:Thurian;Jean-Franc;ois
Bonnefoy; Josef Dillersberger; John McHugh; Ignace de La Potterie; Andre Feuillet. David Aune, the most recent exegete who
has interpreted Revelation, affrrms there is a reference to Mary
in Revelation 12. (The apostolic constitution Munificentissimus Deus [1950] states that the Virgin Mary is signified in
various figures of the Old Testament but also in the woman
clothed with the sun [Rev. 12: 1] .)
Also saints are fallible, if the teachings are universal than its a universal traditional belief. Please don't quote saints to try and prove a point it's clear you wanted to prove something with that. Because we all believe the referent is the Church aswell as Mary.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Is Mary the queen of heaven because Jesus id the king of the jaws and a king needs a queen or revelation 12 is symbolic for israel

No offense friend but God does not need a queen. God doesn’t need anything from us. Iranaeus explained this in Adversus Haereses.
 
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BBAS 64

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Among the earliest commentators who see Mary as the fascinating woman of the Book of Revelation are Cassiodorus (who
says the woman is the "Mother of Jesus") and Oecumenius (who
is the clearest early witness to such an interpretation) and then
Pseudo-Epiphanius. Earlier, Clement of Alexandria had identified Mary with the Virgin Church, but he was not commenting
on the Book of Revelation. In Irenaeus of Lyon there is an explicit identification of Mary as the New Eve. This may be deduced from Genesis 3:15, a text that is implicit in Revelation 12.
Contemporary scholars who see the woman as Mary do
so by saying it is a secondary referent. They are Jean-Louis
D'Aragon, S.].;JohnJ. Scullion, S.J.; Max:Thurian;Jean-Franc;ois
Bonnefoy; Josef Dillersberger; John McHugh; Ignace de La Potterie; Andre Feuillet. David Aune, the most recent exegete who
has interpreted Revelation, affrrms there is a reference to Mary
in Revelation 12. (The apostolic constitution Munificentissimus Deus [1950] states that the Virgin Mary is signified in
various figures of the Old Testament but also in the woman
clothed with the sun [Rev. 12: 1] .)
Also saints are fallible, if the teachings are universal than its a universal traditional belief. Please don't quote saints to try and prove a point it's clear you wanted to prove something with that. Because we all believe the referent is the Church aswell as Mary.


Good Day,

Posted to say I agree... I also agree there is no infallible person at all. That being said the person who interrupts the universal tradition could be in err. Seeing that tradition is normal the understanding of people who can err it's understanding is also suspect....

You do not have to be infallible to be correct.

In Him,

Bill
 
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I'd say Psalms 45:9 is relevant. As is Revelation 11:19, Revelation 12:1, and Revelation 12:5.

Further she is a Queen because she is the Queen-Mother, and Christ is the King.

I think we should more carefully examine the roles here because the relationship between Christ and Mary are not comparable to a relationship between a typical mother and child. According to the scriptures the child is to be subordinate to the parent and in the case of Mary and Christ those roles are reversed. Furthermore I believe many more of the roles were most likely reversed. Provider, teachers, protector, did Mary do these for Christ or was it the other way around? I’m inclined to think it is the latter. So I think we shouldn’t compare their relationship as we would a typical child and mother relationship because it was very different. It’s not the same scenario.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Not grounded interpretation hes eisegesing saints which isn't cool.

Although I understand the logic of the argument (makes sense to me) does not mean I agree with it. I think the compelling interpretation of the woman is Israel surrounded by the Twelve Patriarchs, giving birth to the church, which is thereby persecuted.
 
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woman is Israel surrounded by the Twelve Patriarchs, giving birth to the church, which is thereby persecuted.
identify the woman exclusively with the Jewish people, the nation of Israel. This view seems to be supported by the reference to the woman giving birth to the messiah or “male child” (v. 5) “the woman in this drama is clearly demonstrated to be Israel (the seed bearer of Messiah) through whom the Messiah, Jesus Christ, (the child) entered the world” [. According to Morris, the symbol represents Israel, the chosen people of God; and that the twelve stars will be the twelve patriarchs or the tribes which descended from them. Therefore, it seems likely that the woman here represents Israel, the people of God. Ted Montgomery strongly suggests that this “woman” is not symbolic of Christianity or the Church, a view which is embraced by some Christians, since the Church did not “replace” Israel; rather, it was grafted into Israel the interpretation that the woman is
Mary could stand only if “the verse is isolated since what follows has very little relevance to our Lady. Nor is it any honor to Mary to apply any and every text to her without thought…”. However, this view has internal
problems. “The dragon‟s persecution of the woman after the messiah‟s birth can hardly refer to the devil‟s attack on the nation as a whole but could apply only to the believing part of the people. The whole intent of the
passage is to explain the persecution of the believing community, not the persecution of the nation of Israel as a whole”
 
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That being said the person who interrupts the universal tradition could be in err.
Saints don't interrupt the tradition by just believing something contrary too the churches beliefs, they can have opinions but they cannot impose it as more than a commentary because our church agrees revelation 12 is about the church aswell. Our church explains how Revelation 12 symbolism came about in different ways. Is how Revelation 12 is about Mary, Israel, and the Church.
 
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did Mary do these for Christ or was it the other way around?
Jesus was raised by Mary but he didn't gain knowledge from Mary. Doesn't make her not the Queen that literally makes no sense.
According to the scriptures the child is to be subordinate to the parent and in the case of Mary and Christ those roles are reversed.
Jesus obeyed the 10 commandments through his entire life thats definitely not the case, also when Jesus was a child he was submitted to Mary as he obeyed the commandments.
I think we should more carefully examine the roles here because the relationship between Christ and Mary are not comparable to a relationship between a typical mother and child.
Scripture for this please.
Provider, teachers, protector, did Mary do these for Christ
2 out of the 3 is yes. She did provide and protect Jesus if she didn't Jesus would have died as a Child.
So I think we shouldn’t compare their relationship as we would a typical child and mother relationship because it was very different. It’s not the same scenario.
Scripture for this. Of course they aren't the same but you cannot incline its entirely different because thats unscriptural.
 
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Jesus obeyed the 10 commandments through his entire life thats definitely not the case, also when Jesus was a child he was submitted to Mary as he obeyed the commandments.

Jesus was fully God as a child. Are you saying that God was subjective to Mary?
 
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No offense friend but God does not need a queen.
No offense but Psalm 45:9 is a funny verse you got to explain and no God doesn't need a queen its a spiritual marriage for the davidic kingdom Consequently, for Mary being Jesus mother its not a literal marriage.
God doesn’t need anything from us.
OK?
Iranaeus explained this in Adversus Haereses.
Iranaeus of Lyons believed Mary was the Queen.
 
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Jesus obeyed the 10 commandments through his entire life thats definitely not the case, also when Jesus was a child he was submitted to Mary as he obeyed the commandments.

Jesus is more of a Father to Mary than she is a mother to Him. So this point is arguable according to the scriptures.
 
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2 out of the 3 is yes. She did provide and protect Jesus if she didn't Jesus would have died as a Child.

I think this is highly debatable. I highly doubt The Father would’ve allowed that to happen given Jesus’ purpose for being there.
 
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Jesus is more of a Father to Mary than she is a mother to Him.
Defend this with scripture. Jesus is the Son of Mary and Jesus is the Creator of Mary do you understand what theotokos mean
 
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