The physical descendants of the ancient nation of Israel.
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The gifts and the calling are terms associated exclusively with those who have put their faith in Christ.
Upon whom does God bestow His gifts?
Romans 12:6
Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
1 Corinthians 12:1
Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
1 Corinthians 12:4
Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:9
To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1 Corinthians 12:28
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1 Corinthians 14:12
Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
God's gifts were not, and are not, bestowed upon those of Paul's countrymen according to the flesh who are enemies of the gospel.
They are bestowed exclusively upon God's "all Israel" remnant; His Holy Chosen People: His Church.
To them, and to no others, His gifts are irrevocable (i.e. without repentance).
To whom is God's calling directed?
1 Corinthians 1:26
For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1 Corinthians 7:20
Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.
Ephesians 1:18
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Ephesians 4:4
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
2 Thessalonians 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:
2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
God's calling was not, and is not, directed to those of Paul's unbelieving countrymen according to the flesh, who are enemies of the gospel.
It is directed exclusively to God's "all Israel" remnant; His Holy Chosen People: His Church.
To them, and to no others, His calling is irrevocable (i.e. without repentance).
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Genesis 17:12 is indeed the truth f God. But the application YOU made of it is mere human logic. And your second post was made in willful neglect of the CONTEXT of Romans 11:29, which in its context, says,
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:25-29
So the Holy Spirit said this, through the Apostle Paul, ABOUT those Israelites who CURRENTLY are "enemies," "concerning the gospel," but are yet "beloved for the sake of the fathers." and WHY "For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:25-29
So the Holy Spirit said this, through the Apostle Paul, ABOUT those Israelites who CURRENTLY are "enemies," "concerning the gospel," but are yet "beloved for the sake of the fathers." and WHY "For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."
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So then, explain the application of Genesis 17:12 according to YOUR mere human logic.
In particular, explain what "not of thy seed" means.
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Those in Abraham's household that were not his descendants were also to be circumcised.
But THAT has nothing to do with the many EXPLICITLY STATED promises to the "seed of Abraham," to the ancient nation of "Israel," to the two ancient sub-nations of "Ephraim and Judah," to each the twelve tribes of Israel by name, to "the mountains of Israel, along with "the hills, the rivers, the valleys, the desolate wastes, and the cities that have been forsaken, which became plunder and mockery to the rest of the nations all around" whose borders are specified in high detail, to the city of "Jerusalem," and to the descendants of several ancient Israelites.
There are indeed scriptures that CAN be INTERPRETED to mean that "the seed of Abraham," "Israel," and possibly even "Jerusalem" can also refer to "the church," although there is not even one scripture that actually says any of those. But there is no scripture that even SEEMS to justify interpreting any of these other names to mean "the church."
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Where does scripture teach that salvation will one day be dependent on someone's nationality? Will God suddenly stop not being a respecter of persons at some point?
Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Why would God ensure that people of the nation of Israel would one day all be saved but not the people of any other nation? That idea contradicts the fact that He is not a respecter of persons. You don't seem to understand that you are interpreting some scripture passages in such a way that blatantly contradicts other scripture passages.
What you say that we are supposedly EXPLICITLY told in scripture is only your interpretation of those scripture passages whether you acknowledge that or not.
Which Israel are you talking about here? Can you tell me how you interpret this passage:
Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
There are two Israels mentioned here. Not all of those in the second Israel mentioned in Romans 9:6 are part of the first Israel mentioned. To be part of the first Israel has nothing to do one's nationality or being a natural descendant of Abraham. Instead, it's made up of those who are the children of God and children of the promise.
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How do you interpret this passage:
Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ....26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
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Douggg
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Spiritual Jew, I would say fit your understanding who is Israel to Ezekiel 38 and 39, because those end times chapters are about a nation fitting a geographic location. Not a theological position.
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Nowhere, and I did not even imply that scripture teaches any such thing.
The truth is EXACTLY the OPPOSITE of what you are saying. YOU are the one who is INTERPRETING some scriptures to MEAN something they DO NOT ACTUALLY SAY, and you are using YOUR INTERPRETATION of the MEANINGS of those scriptures as an excuse to deny what other scriptures EXPLICITLY say. What I posted was NOT interpretation. It was what the Bible EXPLICITLY says. And it not only EXPLICITLY says it, but it REPEATEDLY says it in PLAIN, CLEAR, words.
YOU are INTERPRETING this scripture in DIRECT CONTRADICTION to the explanation the HOLY SPIRIT inspired Paul to write:
9 For this is the word of promise: "At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son."
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac
11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),
12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger."
13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." Romans 9:9-13
That is, the Holy Spirit explained that He did not mean that the true Israel was a different group from the physical Israel, but rather, that the true Israel was only that portion of the natural Israel that was also the seed that had been promised.
And so, after two chapters of reasoning, the Holy Spirit finally came down to the plain statement, concerning the unbelieving portion of Israel, that:
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:28-29
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I said:
Yes, you most certainly did. Let me remind you again of what you said:
You are saying that God will lead the entire nation of Israel to repentance. Do you think He will do that for any other nation? I'm sure you don't. So, that means you are saying that one's nationality, in this case Israel, has a major bearing on their salvation. How can you try to deny this?Biblewriter previously said:
All scripture has to be interpreted and must be spiritually discerned (1 Cor 2:9-14). The idea that any scripture doesn't need to be interpreted is ridiculous. Again, you are sharing your INTERPRETATIONS, but are apparently too prideful to acknowledge that.
You apparently did not read Romans 9:6-8 very carefully. Let's look at it again.
Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Notice that it says being children of the flesh (natural Israelites) is not a factor in being a child of God. Instead, the children of the promise are counted for the seed. Using scripture to interpret scripture, we can determine who the children of God and of the promise are.
Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
One is a child of God and of the promise "by faith in Christ Jesus". That is who makes up the Israel of which not all of the nation of Israel are part. Spiritual Israel is made up of Christians, both Jew and Gentile. That is the Israel of which all are and will be saved. That is the Israel that Paul is talking about in Romans 11:26. By saying that God will ensure that all of the nation of Israel will be saved then you make God out to be a respecter of persons since you don't believe He will do that for any other nation.
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So, for you, Ezekiel 38 and 39 trumps Romans 9:6-8? You are trying to set one scripture against another. No. They should agree. Paul is very clear about who makes up the spiritual Israel of God. I would say that you need to read the New Testament more and allow it to aid your understanding of the Old Testament.
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Douggg
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At the time of Romans 9:6-8, the Jews, Israel had not yet gone into the 2000 year dispersion into the nations, nor the temple and city destroyed as part of the Daniel 9:26 prophecy.
It is not one scripture in conflict with the other.
Ezekiel 38-39, a prophecy about the Jews and Israel, in the end times, after they had come out the nations back into the land of Israel, a geographic location - not that theological position.
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Two Israels.
Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed
2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed
Only one of these Israels shall be saved.
Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Only the faithful obedient "all Israel", comprised of the believing elect beloved remnant of Israel (Romans 9:27; 11:1-5,26,28), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.
The true significance of God's choice of Isaac had nothing to do with genetics, and everything to do with faith and obedience. Isaac was the "child of promise", a product of the faith and obedience of his parents Abraham and Sarah. Faith, because both Abraham and Sarah believed God's promise that Abraham would sire a son even though both of them were well beyond the point of physical capability. (Hebrews 11:11-12) Obedience, because Abraham was willing to obey God's instructions to sacrifice Isaac, in apparent violation of His own promise. Yet in further faith he obeyed to the point where God's intervention was elicited. (Hebrews 11:17-19). God's response was to honor all three of them by choosing Isaac's lineage to be that through which Messiah would come.
Hebrews 11
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
We then further see Isaac, the "child of promise", continue his parents' spiritual legacy to also become a spiritual progenitor of those of faith and obedience in and to Christ -- His Church -- His "children of promise" heirs:
Romans 9:7-8
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Galatians 4:28
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Romans 8:16-17
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ.
Thus Isaac, in the full tradition of his parents Abraham and Sarah, continued their legacies of faith and obedience, to the benefit of us all who follow in their spiritual footsteps.
Faith and obedience.
Spiritual DNA.
God's sole and exclusive Covenant conditions.
And nothing else.
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You only read PART of what I said. In the second post of this thread,
And again, further down in the same post,
Again,
Romans 9 most certainly DOES NOT actually SAY being children of the flesh is not a factor before God, as you are INTERPRETING it to MEAN. YOU are claiming the authority to determine who are "the children of the promise." But in YOUR determination, you are willfully ignoring what the scriptures I quoted EXPLICITLY say.
you went on to say,
I have highlighted in boldfaced red that part of this statement that is 100% pure INTERPRETATION on your part. Not even ONE scripture actually SAYS any of that.
So I maintain, as I said before, that you are using YOUR INTERPRETATION of the MEANINGS of SOME scriptures as an excuse to deny what OTHER scriptures EXPLICITLY say.
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You cannot provide even one scripture that actually SAYS that faith in Christ makes a person an Israelite. You are ASSUMING that being a child of Abraham by faith makes someone an Israelite. But you cannot demonstrate this from scripture.
Again, you are ASSUMING that there are two Israels spoken of in scripture. But you cannot quote even one scripture that actually SAYS this. All you can do is quote scriptures that you CHOOSE to INTERPRET to MEAN this.
While the scriptures indeed teach, and CLEARLY teach, that it is only through faith that a person can become a child of God. They NEVER, even once, say that ANYONE is an Israelite other than a physical descendant of the ancient nation of Israel.
The point of this thread is to demonstrate, from EXPLICITLY STATED scripture, that, after the Lord returns, He will indeed gather absolutely all of the physical descendants of the ancient nation of Israel back into their ancient homeland, and, after purging the rebels from their midst, bring ABSOLUTELY ALL of them that remain to a true and living faith in Himself. And the scriptures indeed EXPLICITLY say this, and they ACTUALLY say it in CLEAR, PLAIN words.
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Feel free to attempt to refute what I've provided.
With Scripture, instead of only your opinions.
And don't ignore Galatians 3:16,28-29.
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I did not state an opinion, but an undeniable fact.
You cannot post even one quotation, from anywhere in the entire Bible, that actually says that any person who is not a physical descendant of Jacob, who was re-named Israel, is an Israelite. This is PURE interpretation on your part.
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Repeat:
Feel free to attempt to refute what I've provided.
With Scripture, instead of only your opinions.
And don't ignore Galatians 3:16,28-29.
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Again, I did not state an OPINION. I stated a HARD FACT. The Bible simply DOES NOT say that "the church" is Israel. And it DOES NOT say that anyone who is not a physical descendant of the ancient nation of Israel is an Israelite.
What you said WAS opinion. But what I said, in the multi-part OP, was NOT opinion, but was what the scriptures REPEATEDLY and EXPLICITLY state, in PLAIN, CLEAR, words.
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