Baptism and communion

mikeforjesus · Sep 30, 2020

We can not know if baptism is essential or not as it may be essential one should get baptised maybe communion too though it could be only baptism is required but it is possible none are required though they may help confer grace to unite one to God to make one alive now but are not necessary for righteous living and doing the will of God and to bear fruit but they may allow one to be able to commune with God more to do works that are necessary to be united to God now and have life now but they were never required to be done or one would not ever be saved because I believe some are saved in the world to come. Only the blasphemy of the Spirit is not forgiven in age to come which is to reject what one absolutely knows Jesus will is for him because that is the work of the Holy Spirit to draw one to Jesus. You have to be open to searching the truth and following what one can know is the truth and God will for him. But the Holy Spirit is the one that helps one comprehend the truth

Others can still do all the works Jesus commanded to be done to be saved in the world to come

It is possible communion is a spiritual thing as I don’t think God will not allow one to be able to do the will of God if there is no man to help one do so regularly. But one should maybe do it incase it is required

God does not give the Spirit by measure one gets the Holy Spirit through belief but there is a divine work that is done in baptism to cleanse one of sin and unite one to God

That is why Jesus said you must be born of water and the Spirit to be saved

The Holy Spirit gives you understanding to follow Christ but one is not cleansed of his sins and united to God without either baptism of water or baptism of blood

Therefore if people are not baptised now they may be baptised by fire

God wanted people to obey the command of baptism and communion to be fully united to God and healed of their sins now maybe to allow others to know grace is a gift of God to further their belief in God though it may not be required still only God knows I believe one has the Holy Spirit without baptism but to be born of water is a grace also a work of the holy spirit and also imparts His gift but they go together one first receives the Holy Spirit through faith that is to be born of Spirit but one must be born of water too which provides extra gift of the Holy Spirit as communion may also and it is not to make one stop sinning or to be able to practice the commandments necessary to go to heaven which one can do without communion but in taking communion one is able to do more than is necessary for unity with God now but it is not necessary for one is judged based on what he is able to do God does not give the Spirit by measure does not mean that you don’t have more grace of the Spirit and understanding if you are baptized or have communion supposing communion confers grace but that God does not discriminate in giving the holy spirit to some more or less if they are chosen for God wants them to know and speak the full truth of God therefore if they do not they need to pay for all their sins in a place but as they did the will of God as they have the Holy Spirit they will be saved. I believe the Holy Spirit produces fruit and allows one to do all the will of God but maybe communion is also necessary to be alive now not just having the fruit that is being able to do the will of God but to be alive you are able to do more to bring yourself to complete communion with God in this world but as others still do the will of God but are not fully united with God now they can be saved later people should be striving for perfect communion with Christ in this world but you can do the will of God sufficiently without communion but I don’t know as it may be a spiritual thing only but as communion is a command people should be doing it anyway. It may be necessary to be saved upon death

pdudgeon · Oct 1, 2020

mikeforjesus said:
We can not know if baptism is essential or not as it may be essential one should get baptised maybe communion too though it could be only baptism is required but it is possible none are required though they may help confer grace to unite one to God to make one alive now but are not necessary for righteous living and doing the will of God and to bear fruit but they may allow one to be able to commune with God more to do works that are necessary to be united to God now and have life now but they were never required to be done or one would not ever be saved because I believe some are saved in the world to come. Only the blasphemy of the Spirit is not forgiven in age to come which is to reject what absolutely knows Jesus will is for him because that is the work of the Holy Spirit to draw one to Jesus. Others can still do all the works Jesus commanded to be done to be saved in the world to come

It is possible communion is a spiritual thing as I don’t think God will not allow one to be able to do the will of God if there is no man to help one do so regularly. But one should maybe do it incase it is required

God does not give the Spirit by measure one gets the Holy Spirit through belief but there is a divine work that is done in baptism to cleanse one of sin and unite one to God

That is why Jesus said you must be born of water and the Spirit to be saved

The Holy Spirit gives you understanding to follow Christ but one is not cleansed of his sins and united to God without either baptism of water or baptism of blood

Therefore if people are not baptised now they will need to be baptised by fire

God wanted people to obey the command of baptism and communion to be fully united to God and healed of their sins now maybe to allow others to know grace is a gift of God to further their belief in God though it may not be required still only God knows I believe one has the Holy Spirit without baptism but to be born of water is a grace also a work of the holy spirit and also imparts His gift but they go together one first receives the Holy Spirit through faith that is to be born of Spirit but one must be born of water too which provides extra gift of the Holy Spirit as communion may also and it is not to make one stop sinning or to be able to practice the commandments necessary to go to heaven which one can do without communion but in taking communion one is able to do more than is necessary for unity with God now but it is not necessary for one is judged based on what he is able to do God does not give the Spirit by measure does not mean that you don’t have more grace of the Spirit and understanding if you are baptized or have communion supposing communion confers grace but that God does not discriminate in giving the holy spirit to some more or less if they are chosen for God wants them to know and speak the full truth of God therefore if they do not they need to pay for all their sins in a place but as they did the will of God as they have the Holy Spirit they will be saved. I believe the Holy Spirit produces fruit and allows one to do all the will of God but maybe communion is also necessary to be alive now not just having the fruit that is being able to do the will of God but to be alive you are able to do more to bring yourself to complete communion with God in this world but as others still do the will of God but are not fully united with God now they can be saved later people should be striving for perfect communion with Christ in this world but you can do the will of God sufficiently without communion but I don’t know as it may be a spiritual thing only but as communion is a command people should be doing it anyway. It may be necessary to be saved upon death

You have expressed some interesting views here in your post.
I'm not acquainted with the beliefs of Oriental Orthodoxy, so I'll have to take your word for it that these thoughts align with their beliefs.
Perhaps someone else who is more knowledgeable than I am could chime in with their thoughts??

mikeforjesus · Oct 1, 2020

Thanks but my beliefs are not of the Orthodox Church. I was born as orthodox Christian and used to follow it but I later was convinced God is not exclusive to one group and believe Jesus to be more accepting and the apostles seemed to have been too . I am just listed as orthodox Christian because I can’t change it to Christian

ralliann · Dec 20, 2020

mikeforjesus said:
We can not know if baptism is essential or not as it may be essential one should get baptised maybe communion too though it could be only baptism is required but it is possible none are required though they may help confer grace to unite one to God to make one alive now but are not necessary for righteous living and doing the will of God and to bear fruit but they may allow one to be able to commune with God more to do works that are necessary to be united to God now and have life now but they were never required to be done or one would not ever be saved because I believe some are saved in the world to come. Only the blasphemy of the Spirit is not forgiven in age to come which is to reject what one absolutely knows Jesus will is for him because that is the work of the Holy Spirit to draw one to Jesus. You have to be open to searching the truth and following what one can know is the truth and God will for him. But the Holy Spirit is the one that helps one comprehend the truth

Others can still do all the works Jesus commanded to be done to be saved in the world to come

It is possible communion is a spiritual thing as I don’t think God will not allow one to be able to do the will of God if there is no man to help one do so regularly. But one should maybe do it incase it is required

God does not give the Spirit by measure one gets the Holy Spirit through belief but there is a divine work that is done in baptism to cleanse one of sin and unite one to God

That is why Jesus said you must be born of water and the Spirit to be saved

The Holy Spirit gives you understanding to follow Christ but one is not cleansed of his sins and united to God without either baptism of water or baptism of blood

Therefore if people are not baptised now they may be baptised by fire

God wanted people to obey the command of baptism and communion to be fully united to God and healed of their sins now maybe to allow others to know grace is a gift of God to further their belief in God though it may not be required still only God knows I believe one has the Holy Spirit without baptism but to be born of water is a grace also a work of the holy spirit and also imparts His gift but they go together one first receives the Holy Spirit through faith that is to be born of Spirit but one must be born of water too which provides extra gift of the Holy Spirit as communion may also and it is not to make one stop sinning or to be able to practice the commandments necessary to go to heaven which one can do without communion but in taking communion one is able to do more than is necessary for unity with God now but it is not necessary for one is judged based on what he is able to do God does not give the Spirit by measure does not mean that you don’t have more grace of the Spirit and understanding if you are baptized or have communion supposing communion confers grace but that God does not discriminate in giving the holy spirit to some more or less if they are chosen for God wants them to know and speak the full truth of God therefore if they do not they need to pay for all their sins in a place but as they did the will of God as they have the Holy Spirit they will be saved. I believe the Holy Spirit produces fruit and allows one to do all the will of God but maybe communion is also necessary to be alive now not just having the fruit that is being able to do the will of God but to be alive you are able to do more to bring yourself to complete communion with God in this world but as others still do the will of God but are not fully united with God now they can be saved later people should be striving for perfect communion with Christ in this world but you can do the will of God sufficiently without communion but I don’t know as it may be a spiritual thing only but as communion is a command people should be doing it anyway. It may be necessary to be saved upon death

I think these things have to do with his priesthood. The sharing of the sacrifices of the priests in the feast days. Jesus was one sacrifice for all. All the sacrifices of the levitical priesthood were simply shadows of his one sacrifice.

mikeforjesus · Dec 21, 2020

Agree that Jesus is the fulfilment of all the signs the main thing but He may use such sacraments to confer grace the apostles broke bread from house to house so it was mainly a fellowship you should do you can do so in your own home my dad says and it seems so just as Melchizedek which seems to be Jesus offered Abraham bread and wine. Because the point is to remember Christ so one does the ceremony in order to prepare oneself to commune spiritually with Christ but it is advantageous for believers to break bread together in a gathering as Christ becomes specially present to unite them as He said where 2 or 3 are gathered in My name I am in the midst of them but otherwise they commune singly

As Jesus is the bread of life communion symbolises that. Because I just don’t think God will deprive people of grace if they can’t come together though I suppose He could choose to make it a means of grace to break bread with another from house to house or by yourself and He may make the communion personally for you in any gathering that offers it if you take it by faith and He wills you to encourage others to do so to take it by faith themselves

you should do so among others also for greater fellowship

baptism was a command when Jesus said to baptise people in the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit

And Peter commanded men who received the Holy Spirit to be baptised in water

They could be means of grace to fully unite one but one can still do the will of God without it because one can obey Christ fully but one soul is just not made united to God without the gifts

mikeforjesus · Feb 2, 2021

Jesus says in the last supper take eat this is My body I think He could mean symbolically to help one understand and remember that is to meditate on the cross which helps one commune with Him. How I understand John 6 is I believe jesus says about Himself that He is the bread of life and it is because He will die and atone for our sins and by eating His body and drinking His blood He means to commune with what He did to partake of Him spiritually.
He says to eat His flesh because His flesh is food indeed He says because He chooses to offer His flesh for the life of the world by being willing to accept that He offered His flesh for one one is eating His flesh for one has to accept that His flesh is needed to suffer for him to be forgiven and have life. So it may be symbolically but it could be literally in a sacrament to give life which just means to be united to God now but one can still be saved if he does His will. Communion is a time to examine your relationship with Christ and it is for those who are living in Christ. If one is to offer communion one should be treating it as though it is the body and blood for Paul still says those who take it unworthily are condemned not discerning the Lord body he should be accepting it as maybe it so and helpful and so should those who take it. Maybe it is the body and blood but it is not necessary to not ever be saved but it could not be but it should still be treated with reverence for it is for people who are living in Christ who are not worthy of His blood as they would therefore not be treating His ordinance with respect and to the purpose of the ordinance which is for people to witness they are remembering and living in Christ

mikeforjesus · Apr 15, 2021

I wonder for those who believe communion is necessary such as orthodox and catholic if they believe a person is in hospital and has few hours to live and he can’t see a priest if they believe anyone can give communion I heard view layman maybe they suppose from church can baptise in such situations but what if there is no one from church? Could they also suppose if no one heard of orthodox or catholic faith that they are not required to join if they had never been exposed to it ?

mikeforjesus · Apr 15, 2021

It would not be fair if you needed to eat the body and blood for those who do not have opportunity for it to be essential. Also people are judged according to knowledge everyone who seeks the truth even in places where the gospel is not preached I think if they are really seeking diligently God would make it possible for them to know the truth from someone preaching to them or God would reveal it to them but they may not be seeking so it helps to preach the gospel

mikeforjesus · Jun 7, 2021

I believe baptism was only required at the beginning as there was apostles that they would all be under the leadership of the apostles and they had signs.

I have faith that it is not required now because I trust God would not require something without being proof such a thing would be required as Jesus said He would be with disciples to end of the age and the bible does not undeniably teach and emphasise such works as being absolutely essential to say yes He means exactly what it means without such a ritual saying literally you can not be saved but left it open to interpretation.

It is true prophecy is not of private interpretation but this does not mean we are told we must accept what another teaches as the truth that we do not know is true that is what St Peter is saying not to do he was referring to the prophecies about Jesus and he was saying to believe him St Peter because it is the truth that they should believe him because the prophets spoke about Jesus and they are not interpreting it in their own way but they had evidence that Jesus fulfilled what the prophets spoke they were eye witnesses to all they saw and they should receive it because the prophets spoke about it.

God wants us to study scripture He said He shows us the truth. Jesus said He gives the Holy Spirit to those who ask and the gentiles received it Paul asks as though it is the way God intends for gentiles from then on did you receive the Spirit by works of law or hearing of faith.

The Holy Spirit leads us into all truth to know it and St. John says for those who have the Holy Spirit you have no need that anyone teach you it is able to teach the truth about all things which doesn’t necessarily mean you will know everything already without study but it is able to know for sure what is true and what is not.

I believe believers have the Holy Spirit without baptism as shown by gentiles receiving it they can be led to righteousness and live holy lives but they can not be completely transformed inside now to be made new to have one sins buried to be able to rise with Christ on day of death immediately to be made new without baptism and the Lord supper may also aid in making one whole now.

Thus believers are still saved and have the Holy Spirit

mikeforjesus · Jul 7, 2021

As mentioned in Acts and Galatians the gentiles receive the Holy Spirit by faith as no one can understand the gospel unless God let’s him when he hears the word of God God allows him to understand if he is truly seeking so to understand is a gift of God this spiritual birth being of the Spirit to give understanding is of water as Spirit of God is as water to take away previous sins to make you alive when you were dead but it requires you through Spirit to continue to be transformed that is work of Spirit so it is to be born of the Spirit

That allows you to live righteous but I believe you need baptism as it is a command that was given to be necessary to be forgiven of sins now to unite one to God now completely to have Holy Spirit not just in mind and heart but in soul to cleanse it and unite it to God now

Or it could be the case

You need to be born of the Spirit to understand the gospel but for person to be born again to be alive after he is dead he needs to be born of water through baptism so that when he believes by the Spirit he can be spiritually alive to be united to God now to enter kingdom on death but one still has Holy Spirit without baptism to be born of Spirit as gentiles received it without baptism they can be instructed in righteousness to live righteous lives to be worthy of being saved but not to be saved on death people are saved in world to come you need baptism to be united to God now though one has the Holy Spirit to be promised of forgiveness of sins through faith it is thorough baptism that holy spirit dwells inside one soul to transform it to unite it to God not just in heart and mind to make one able to live righteous

I believe you already have Holy Spirit in your heart and mind by faith but through baptism and communion it lives in soul to cleanse it now and unite it to God now that God will choose to use them to do so now though I don’t believe them absolutely required as I believe a person can be saved if he dies for the Lord because of his faith as Jesus said after He said do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul therefore whoever confesses Me before men I will confess before My Father

mikeforjesus · Jul 7, 2021

Anyway those are my beliefs but I don’t know I think it is right to teach you can not deliberately refuse baptism and communion for we don’t know if it is acceptable so people should be baptized and have communion if one has chance or repent of it if you are martyred that you desire it

Dick Barton · Aug 4, 2021

mikeforjesus said:
We can not know if baptism is essential or not as it may be essential one should get baptised maybe communion too though it could be only baptism is required but it is possible none are required though they may help confer grace to unite one to God to make one alive now but are not necessary for righteous living and doing the will of God and to bear fruit but they may allow one to be able to commune with God more to do works that are necessary to be united to God now and have life now but they were never required to be done or one would not ever be saved because I believe some are saved in the world to come. Only the blasphemy of the Spirit is not forgiven in age to come which is to reject what one absolutely knows Jesus will is for him because that is the work of the Holy Spirit to draw one to Jesus. You have to be open to searching the truth and following what one can know is the truth and God will for him. But the Holy Spirit is the one that helps one comprehend the truth

Others can still do all the works Jesus commanded to be done to be saved in the world to come

It is possible communion is a spiritual thing as I don’t think God will not allow one to be able to do the will of God if there is no man to help one do so regularly. But one should maybe do it incase it is required

God does not give the Spirit by measure one gets the Holy Spirit through belief but there is a divine work that is done in baptism to cleanse one of sin and unite one to God

That is why Jesus said you must be born of water and the Spirit to be saved

The Holy Spirit gives you understanding to follow Christ but one is not cleansed of his sins and united to God without either baptism of water or baptism of blood

Therefore if people are not baptised now they may be baptised by fire

God wanted people to obey the command of baptism and communion to be fully united to God and healed of their sins now maybe to allow others to know grace is a gift of God to further their belief in God though it may not be required still only God knows I believe one has the Holy Spirit without baptism but to be born of water is a grace also a work of the holy spirit and also imparts His gift but they go together one first receives the Holy Spirit through faith that is to be born of Spirit but one must be born of water too which provides extra gift of the Holy Spirit as communion may also and it is not to make one stop sinning or to be able to practice the commandments necessary to go to heaven which one can do without communion but in taking communion one is able to do more than is necessary for unity with God now but it is not necessary for one is judged based on what he is able to do God does not give the Spirit by measure does not mean that you don’t have more grace of the Spirit and understanding if you are baptized or have communion supposing communion confers grace but that God does not discriminate in giving the holy spirit to some more or less if they are chosen for God wants them to know and speak the full truth of God therefore if they do not they need to pay for all their sins in a place but as they did the will of God as they have the Holy Spirit they will be saved. I believe the Holy Spirit produces fruit and allows one to do all the will of God but maybe communion is also necessary to be alive now not just having the fruit that is being able to do the will of God but to be alive you are able to do more to bring yourself to complete communion with God in this world but as others still do the will of God but are not fully united with God now they can be saved later people should be striving for perfect communion with Christ in this world but you can do the will of God sufficiently without communion but I don’t know as it may be a spiritual thing only but as communion is a command people should be doing it anyway. It may be necessary to be saved upon death

I am not sure I understand everything you are saying and I am not sure you do either. You seem to be trying to justify what you believe without any real knowledge of the subject matter so lets see if I can unravel it a bit.

First baptism. On the day of Pentecost when the church was birthed in prayer and power, after the salvation message had been preached to the listeners, they asked what shall we do?

That answer was," Repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Acts 2. I understand that to mean that this was foundational for anyone who wanted to become part of the New Testament Church (NTC). For me, repentance deals with the old man and baptism opens the doors to the new.

Second, communion. This did not exist in the NTC. It was introduced by the catholic church when they had taken control of things and then it was continued by the protestant church at the reformation. Like Luther, not everything the RC church practiced was dumped by the protestants, the other being the pastor which is nothing more that a version of the RC priest.

The NTC broke bread Acts 2, which referred to eating a meal. They met together in homes (not buildings) in the evenings to share a meal together and around that meal they were taught, had fellowship and prayed. The meal was central to their gathering because it meant that those who had not eaten during the day and that was not a given, would be fed by those who could provide sustenance. That was not always the case with widows and slaves.

Third, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is nothing more that calling a work of the Holy Spirit the work of Satan. One has to be careful criticizing the charismatic because you may be doing just that. If your experience of the charismatic is only hearsay, best to not say anything.

Dick Barton · Aug 4, 2021

mikeforjesus said:
It would not be fair if you needed to eat the body and blood for those who do not have opportunity for it to be essential. Also people are judged according to knowledge everyone who seeks the truth even in places where the gospel is not preached I think if they are really seeking diligently God would make it possible for them to know the truth from someone preaching to them or God would reveal it to them but they may not be seeking so it helps to preach the gospel

The fact is no one eats the body of Jesus or drinks his blood. At the time that was said it was obviously only a metaphor because those doing the eating and drinking were all Jews. The Old Testament law forbade any Jew to eat human flesh or drink human blood so for Jesus to ask them to eat his flesh and drink his blood would have been laughable.

mikeforjesus · Aug 4, 2021

Dick Barton said:
I am not sure I understand everything you are saying and I am not sure you do either. You seem to be trying to justify what you believe without any real knowledge of the subject matter so lets see if I can unravel it a bit.

First baptism. On the day of Pentecost when the church was birthed in prayer and power, after the salvation message had been preached to the listeners, they asked what shall we do?

That answer was," Repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Acts 2. I understand that to mean that this was foundational for anyone who wanted to become part of the New Testament Church (NTC). For me, repentance deals with the old man and baptism opens the doors to the new.

Second, communion. This did not exist in the NTC. It was introduced by the catholic church when they had taken control of things and then it was continued by the protestant church at the reformation. Like Luther, not everything the RC church practiced was dumped by the protestants, the other being the pastor which is nothing more that a version of the RC priest.

The NTC broke bread Acts 2, which referred to eating a meal. They met together in homes (not buildings) in the evenings to share a meal together and around that meal they were taught, had fellowship and prayed. The meal was central to their gathering because it meant that those who had not eaten during the day and that was not a given, would be fed by those who could provide sustenance. That was not always the case with widows and slaves.

Third, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is nothing more that calling a work of the Holy Spirit the work of Satan. One has to be careful criticizing the charismatic because you may be doing just that. If your experience of the charismatic is only hearsay, best to not say anything.

I can not speak for God but neither can you I have said what I believed might be right as I thought God might accept all who believe if they seek to follow His commandments and I believed they may have the Holy Spirit because I believed you receive it when you believe as I believe I was born of the Spirit only when I came to believe myself but I know I could be wrong and so people should seek to be baptised

about communion I can not say but it may be truly body and blood and so people should take it you can not know as Jesus did say the bread which He broke was the body given for us and the cup which He blessed was the blood of the new covenant given for remission of sins and Paul said the bread which we break is it not the communion of the body of Christ and the cup which we bless is it not the communion of the body of Christ

Dick Barton said:
The fact is no one eats the body of Jesus or drinks his blood. At the time that was said it was obviously only a metaphor because those doing the eating and drinking were all Jews. The Old Testament law forbade any Jew to eat human flesh or drink human blood so for Jesus to ask them to eat his flesh and drink his blood would have been laughable.

The law obviously forbids literally eating human flesh and literally drinking of blood because that makes one vicious if one drinks blood literally because indeed the thing that made the person its soul was in its blood God did not want to make people to therefore eat His flesh and drink His blood literally not wanting them to think He is offering Himself for them physically in raw way as that would be wrong to do to justify cannibalism confirming it is forbidden when He said it is the Spirit which gives life as it is not merely eating the physical flesh that gives life as that has no Spirit but His flesh was raised so has Spirit and is food which He may give at the time of communion I can not know or He may give it spiritually to those who seek Him As Jesus said He is the living bread which came from heaven He may have meant not to eat His flesh at all as He said it is the Spirit which gives life the flesh profits nothing the words I speak to you are Spirit and they are life but I can not know perhaps He means just His physical flesh without His Spirit can not profit
But Paul says many are sick who take communion unworthily not discerning the Lord body it could be as communion is meant to be a time to remember Christ and what He did and is supposed to be a time for people to thank Christ for what He did and show they are His body but others pretend to follow Christ and should not come to offer their gift they become guilty of the body of the Lord because they are not living as Christians should and ruin the purpose of the ordinance which is to remember Christ and witness to Him

I know it is wrong to speak against charismatic gifts but I don’t have to say they are true either I just don’t know but I don’t believe that is the blasphemy of the Spirit unless one knows what it is
I actually believe some people may have the gifts but Paul said not all do I want to seek it I believe the gift of tongues at Pentecost was the gift of speaking other people language and was only given at the beginning of the church to witness to the truth being the fullfillment of Joel and to help them spread the message in all the world so they can receive it then

but there is another gift of tongues which is a heavenly language to allow one spirit to pray to God as Paul says

GreekOrthodox · Aug 4, 2021

We see communion as being described in the 2nd century by Justin Martyr, LONG before what we would call a "Roman Catholic Church"

Having ended the prayers, we salute one another with a kiss. There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands.

Dick Barton · Aug 4, 2021

mikeforjesus said:
I can not speak for God but neither can you I have said what I believed might be right as I thought God might accept all who believe if they seek to follow His commandments and I believed they may have the Holy Spirit because I believed you receive it when you believe as I believe I was born of the Spirit only when I came to believe myself but I know I could be wrong and so people should seek to be baptised

about communion I can not say but it may be truly body and blood and so people should take it you can not know as Jesus did say the bread which He broke was the body given for us and the cup which He blessed was the blood of the new covenant given for remission of sins and Paul said the bread which we break is it not the communion of the body of Christ and the cup which we bless is it not the communion of the body of Christ

The law obviously forbids literally eating human flesh and literally drinking of blood because that makes one vicious if one drinks blood literally because indeed the thing that made the person its soul was in its blood God did not want to make people to therefore eat His flesh and drink His blood literally not wanting them to think He is offering Himself for them physically in raw way as that would be wrong to do to justify cannibalism confirming it is forbidden when He said it is the Spirit which gives life as it is not merely eating the physical flesh that gives life as that has no Spirit but His flesh was raised so has Spirit and is food which He may give at the time of communion I can not know or He may give it spiritually to those who seek Him As Jesus said He is the living bread which came from heaven He may have meant not to eat His flesh at all as He said it is the Spirit which gives life the flesh profits nothing the words I speak to you are Spirit and they are life but I can not know perhaps He means just His physical flesh without His Spirit can not profit
But Paul says many are sick who take communion unworthily not discerning the Lord body it could be as communion is meant to be a time to remember Christ and what He did and is supposed to be a time for people to thank Christ for what He did and show they are His body but others pretend to follow Christ and should not come to offer their gift they become guilty of the body of the Lord because they are not living as Christians should and ruin the purpose of the ordinance which is to remember Christ and witness to Him

I know it is wrong to speak against charismatic gifts but I don’t have to say they are true either I just don’t know but I don’t believe that is the blasphemy of the Spirit unless one knows what it is
I actually believe some people may have the gifts but Paul said not all do I want to seek it I believe the gift of tongues at Pentecost was the gift of speaking other people language and was only given at the beginning of the church to witness to the truth being the fullfillment of Joel and to help them spread the message in all the world so they can receive it then

but there is another gift of tongues which is a heavenly language to allow one spirit to pray to God as Paul says

From what you have said you do not seem sure about anything. My learning has come about studying those who are sure about what they say. They are so sure that they have written books and which have been published and they are acknowledged as authorities on the subject they write about.

When you are not sure about things it is best to study to show yourself approved to God then you can be sure. I have been a lifelong student of the Word (68 years) with a few degrees under my belt, so I am not afraid to say I do know.

As the scriptures tells us we are ambassadors for Christ, every time we open our mouth's we speak for God. That is what ambassadors do.

And the scripture is very clear that blaspheming the Holy Spirit is calling a work of the Holy Spirit the work of Satan.

Dick Barton · Aug 4, 2021

GreekOrthodox said:
We see communion as being described in the 2nd century by Justin Martyr, LONG before what we would call a "Roman Catholic Church"

Having ended the prayers, we salute one another with a kiss. There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands.

As I am not versed in the Greek Orthodox way of doing things I defer to your explanation. For me I prefer to go with what the word of God says and as yet I cannot see where a president is part of the New Testament Church, neither the ritual you go through.

GreekOrthodox · Aug 5, 2021

Dick Barton said:
As I am not versed in the Greek Orthodox way of doing things I defer to your explanation. For me I prefer to go with what the word of God says and as yet I cannot see where a president is part of the New Testament Church, neither the ritual you go through.

Its not just Greek Orthodox, but Justin describes the way things were done within 50 years of the Apostolic Era, long before the NT canon was decided. As for "president" the phrase that is used literally means "to that one of the brethren who was presiding."

Dick Barton · Aug 5, 2021

GreekOrthodox said:
Its not just Greek Orthodox, but Justin describes the way things were done within 50 years of the Apostolic Era, long before the NT canon was decided. As for "president" the phrase that is used literally means "to that one of the brethren who was presiding."

i am not sure about that as the scriptures covered a period up to the 90s.

Albion · Aug 5, 2021

Dick Barton said:
i am not sure about that as the scriptures covered a period up to the 90s.

I believe that he was referring to the period before the writings were determined to be inspired works, whereas you replied by referring to the period during which they were written.

The point about what the Christians actually did at worship, however, referred to other records from antiquity that describe how the early church did things.

And as for ritual in particular, almost every church I am familiar with, whether Catholic or one of the mainline Protestant ones or even some that are considered to be very "non-ritualistic" such as the Churches of Christ or the Disciples of Christ or various non-denominational congregations, have their own rituals. Yes, they do.

These merely are not the same rituals as the older churches use and that are based on what the ancient church followed.

If an outside observer isn't distracted by the robes, etc. he can see that there are prayers, instruction in the faith, readings from Scripture, hymns or songs of praise, and more or less the same elements of "ritual" that the less ceremonial denominations follow every week.

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