Soyeong

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Our salvation is more than just salvation from sin.
It is certainly that, but then we are "made righteous'.
See that 2nd part?

Salvation is God giving you His Righteousness, and that is more than just paying for your sin.
When a person is born again, its a 2 part process, which is the "new birth", or to be born again.

1.) God applies the Blood of Jesus to you, that resolves all your sin..

2.) THEN, God give you a NEW Spiritual BIRTH where you are literally born again INTO GOD's Holy Spirit by God's Holy Spirit.

So, see those 2?

1.) Sin is dealt with, and then 2.) the new Birth follows. = "new Creation IN Christ'"

The born again, birthed twice...our 2nd birthday is our SALVATiON.
This means that the 2nd Adam, has restored the born again to the position of the same righteousness that the 1st Adam was created AS, and was, until he sinned and lost his Righteousness.

So, all Salvation is, in a nutshell, is God restoring to each born again person, the original righteousness of God, that was lost by Adam when he transgressed.

Doing what is righteous is in obedience to God's law, while doing what is sinful is in disobedience to it, so doing what is righteous in obedience to it through faith is inherently part of what it means to receive the gift of Jesus saving from living in disobedience to it. If our salvation was just from the penalty of our sin, but not also from continuing to live in sin, then our salvation from sin would be incomplete.
 
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Sidon

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Yes, and to be under grace instead now means even more-it means we're given the power, by the Spirit, to do what the law could not do.

We are not able to anything.
We can't keep the law or commandments.
So, God did.
He fulfilled all that for us, and we are then released from it.
Everything that God requires of us, so that He can accept us, HE fulfilled Himself as Jesus.
 
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Sidon

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Doing what is righteous is in obedience to God's law, while doing what is sinful is in disobedience to it, so doing what is righteous in obedience to it through faith is inherently part of what it means to receive the gift.

We as people do NOTHING to Receive a GIFT from God.
So, dont teach that God's' ""Gift of Salvation""" is based on our WORK>
See that?
 
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Sidon

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And to the extent that we continue to sin, we must continue to acknowledge it-in order to overcome that sin


You acknowledge your sin everytime you confess it again.
So, that is not helping you "overcome" it.
And it will never.

Ive posted quite a bit on this forum that shows you how to be delivered from your sinning and confessing situation.
This will help you, if you can lay down your self effort and begin to operate within the solution.
 
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Soyeong

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We as people do NOTHING to Receive a GIFT from God.
So, dont teach that God's' ""Gift of Salvation""" is based on our WORK>
See that?
The Bible speaks against a works-based salvation insofar as there are no works that we can do to earn our salvation, however, it nevertheless also speaks in favor of a salvation that necessarily involves choosing to do good works through faith insofar as there are reasons for doing good works other than trying to earn our salvation. A gift is incompatible with doing works to earn it as a wage, but it is not incompatible with works done for other reasons. For example, if a professional musician were to teach me how to play an instrument as a gift to me, then there lessons themselves would be the content of the gift and participating in those lessons would be doing nothing to earn it, but rather that is the way to receive it, and out salvation is the same type of gift where it's content is being taught how to do something. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is essentially described as being trained by grace to do good works, so that is itself the content of being saved from not doing good works. In Romans 2:13, only doers of th law will be justified, so there is a reason why our justification requires obeying God's law other than in order to get earn it as a wage. Likewise, in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he will tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so God's law was given to teach us how to know Christ, and knowing Christ is a requirement for salvation.
 
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Sidon

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The Bible speaks against a works-based salvation insofar as there are no works that we can do to earn our salvation, however, it never less also speaks in favor of a salvation that necessarily involves choosing to do good works

Salvation is not doing good works.
There are no works we do, to gain salvation, or keep it.
Salvation is independent of our "doing".

Salvation is God, coming here, dying on a Cross, and fulfilling the law.
That is Salvation.
It happened 2000 yrs ago.

If you want it, then you go to God and you trust His Son, and you take Him into your heart by FAITH.
God will see that Faith, and He will accept it, instantly, and eternally, and give you the BLood Atonment.
That is Salvaiton.
It was created by God, performed by God, and offered by God for FREE= as "the GIFT of Salvation".

We have no part in that, except to receive it.

Discipleship, is what we do BECAUSE He have received God's Salvation.
There are your works.
 
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Soyeong

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Salvation is not doing good works.
There are no works we do, to gain salvation, or keep it.
Salvation is independent of our "doing".

Salvation is God, coming here, dying on a Cross, and fulfilling the law.
That is Salvation.
It happened 2000 yrs ago.

If you want it, then you go to God and you trust His Son, and you take Him into your heart by FAITH.
God will see that Faith, and He will accept it, instantly, and eternally, and give you the BLood Atonment.
That is Salvaiton.
It was created by God, performed by God, and offered by God for FREE= as "the GIFT of Salvation".

We have no part in that, except to receive it.

Discipleship, is what we do BECAUSE He have received God's Salvation.
There are your works.

Then please address Titus 2:11-14 because it describes are salvation as being trained by grace to do things. It doesn't say that we need to do those before we can become saved or that we will do those things after we have been saved, but rather it describes the content of the gift of our salvation as being trained by grace to do those things. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law, so again, the content of our faith in Jesus is in regard to doing things.
 
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Sidon

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Then please address Titus 2:11-14 because it describes are salvation as being trained by grace to do things. It doesn't say that we need to do those before we can become saved or that we will do those things after we have been saved, but rather it describes the content of the gift of our salvation as being trained by grace to do those things. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law, so again, the content of our faith in Jesus is in regard to doing things.

The dying Thief on the Cross?
Was He "trained by Grace"?
He was not.

So, the "doing things", you are talking about is not our Salvaiton.
Salvation is Christ on the Cross, 2000 yrs ago......so, can you do that?
Want to give it a try?
So, the DOING is what we do later, as our Discipleship.

Remember, Salvation is what GOD DID ON The Cross, and by Death and Resurrection, AND PROVIDES as "the GIFT of Salvation", , and Discipleship is what we do AFTER we are =born again.
 
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Soyeong

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The dying Thief on the Cross?
Was He "trained by Grace"?
He was not.

So, the "doing things", you are talking about is not our Salvaiton.
Salvation is Christ on the Cross, 2000 yrs ago......so, can you do that?
Want to give it a try?
So, the DOING is what we do later, as our Discipleship.

Remember, Salvation is what GOD DID ON The Cross, and by Death and Resurrection, AND PROVIDES as "the GIFT of Salvation", , and Discipleship is what we do AFTER we are =born again.
You replied, but you managed to avoid addressing Titus 2:11-14. Do you think that these verses are false?
 
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Sidon

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You replied, but you managed to avoid addressing Titus 2:11-14. Do you think that these verses are false?

I did address it.

So, let me post the verse, and open it.

"""For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing us, to the intent that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly and righteously and godly in this present world""""

1.) For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men..

This is 1Timothy 3:16 and John 3:16
This is God, virgin born, "manifested in the Flesh". Jesus is the Grace of God given for the sin of the world. John 3:16

2.) instructing us, to the intent that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly and righteously and godly in this present world

This is the WORD incarnate, become a man, talking about living righteously.
The apostle who gave this letter is Paul, and Paul knows that "living righteously", is impossible, till you are born again.
This is why Jesus came here. He came to live the righteous life, and fulfill the law, and then die, bearing the sin of the World.
So, Paul is not just talking to the trees. He is talking to the born again, about their discipleship.
To live "soberly and righteously" in this present word, is the context of THIS VERSE.:

= "be in the world and not of the world".

See that, Soyeong?

That is a direction to a born again Christian, as Paul would not be telling a Christ rejector to be "sober", and "live righteously", as they CANT.


Now, i wrote a Thread about this very verse, that deals with TRANSFORMATION.

You should find it.
 
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Soyeong

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Please quote where you had addressed it.

1.) For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men..

This is 1Timothy 3:16 and John 3:16
This is God, virgin born, "manifested in the Flesh". Jesus is the Grace of God given for the sin of the world. John 3:16

2.) instructing us, to the intent that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly and righteously and godly in this present world

This is the WORD incarnate, become a man, talking about living righteously.
The apostle who gave this letter is Paul, and Paul knows that "living righteously", is impossible, till you are born again.
This is why Jesus came here. He came to live the righteous life, and fulfill the law, and then die, bearing the sin of the World.
So, Paul is not just talking to the trees. He is talking to the born again, about their discipleship.
To live "soberly and righteously" in this present word, is the context of THIS VERSE.:

= "be in the world and not of the world".

See that, Soyeong?

That is a direction to a born again Christian, as Paul would not be telling a Christ rejector to be "sober", and "live righteously", as they CANT.

It notably says, "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people," and does not say "or the grace of God has appeared, bringing [discipleship] for all people,". Please try again. I've said nothing about those who reject Christ being able to live righteously.

Now, i wrote a Thread about this very verse, that deals with TRANSFORMATION.

You should find it.

Please link that thread.
 
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fhansen

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We are not able to anything.
We can't keep the law or commandments.
So, God did.
He fulfilled all that for us, and we are then released from it.
Everything that God requires of us, so that He can accept us, HE fulfilled Himself as Jesus.
You're limiting God-of course we can keep the law or the commandments, by the Spirit, and only by the Spirit. The law He gave us was by no means wrong, it's based on love which is why the greatest commandments fulfill the law. He wouldn't give man laws that aren't proper to his nature, and which are impossible to fulfill, only to turn around and blame man for not fulfilling them.

The lesson man must learn is that the law cannot be fulfilled apart from God. God can accomplish in us what we cannot accomplish on our own. And this is how it should be because man was made for communion with God and for the righteousness which is intrinsic to that relationship. "Apartness" from God, first of all, is man's primary and basic injustice-or sin. "Apart from Me you can do nothing" -John 15:5. So the New Covenant prophecy of Jeremiah 31:33, which is quoted in Hebrews 8 & 10:
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.

Phil 3:9 provides more understanding here:
“…not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.”

This faith is more than only believing, it implies relationship with God. So Jeremiah 31:34 continues:
“No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.”

The man who's been made righteous by God can fulfill the law without even needing to know the law, without being “under the law” IOW. He’s under grace:
"But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, though testified to by the law and the prophets, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe." Rom 3:21

“...just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
Rom 5:21

As Luther once wrote:
"We are not made righteous by doing righteous deeds, but when we have been made righteous we do righteous deeds." And whether he thought so or not, we must have and practice this righteousness:
"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin. He thus condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous standard of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:1-4

Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.” Rom 8:12-13

The most basic problem with man, the essence of the state sometimes known as "original sin", is alienation from God, the state we're all born into, characterized as our being lost, dead, sick, etc.-and the reason man must be found, healed, raised to newness of life, "born again" or "born from above". Jesus came to reveal the true God, so that we may believe in and be reconciled with Him.
"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3
 
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Sidon

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Please quote where you had addressed it.

It notably says, "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people," and does not say "or the grace of God has appeared, bringing [discipleship] for all people,". Please try again. I've said nothing about those who reject Christ being able to live righteously.

I really don't understand your question.
IVe never said that God brings discipleship.
He doesn't. He brings the BLOOD ATONEMENT.
John 3:16

So, can you just ask a question, so that i can understand what you are needing to know.
 
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Sidon

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You're limiting God-of course we can keep the law or the commandments,

Your point is that we are saved to then prove it by keeping commandments and by keeping the law.
Yeah, i heard you the last 50 posts.
We got it.

But here is the thing, fhansen, we are not saved to keep the law or commandments.
WE are born again to bear spiritual fruit to God, as "present your body a living sacrifice".
What does this mean?
It means that we are to submit to the work of God, by becoming this...
"it is no longer i who live, but Christ who lives in me'.

Jesus once told us..>>"the works that you see me do, you will do greater then these"

So, THAT is what God is looking for, from His redeemed.
And you do THAT, by submitting and becoming obedient, not to the law and commandment, but to the releasing of your will and your opinion and your point of view, into total submission to God's perspective and God's work.
His work is to do through His blood bought redeemed, His work.
His Work is to be a LIGHT in the DARK WORLD that calls unbelievers home, =TO THE CROSS.
God's WORK is to deliver and heal and comfort and LOVE as REDEMPTION.
That is God's work, and that is our Spiritual Fruit. Not law-keeping and so forth that you chase as YOUR Work.
 
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fhansen

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Your point is that we are saved to then prove it by keeping commandments and by keeping the law.
Yeah, i heard you the last 50 posts.
We got it.

But here is the thing, fhansen, we are not saved to keep the law or commandments.
WE are born again to bear spiritual fruit to God, as "present your body a living sacrifice".
What does this mean?
It means that we are to submit to the work of God, by becoming this...
"it is no longer i who live, but Christ who lives in me'.

Jesus once told us..>>"the works that you see me do, you will do greater then these"

So, THAT is what God is looking for, from His redeemed.
And you do THAT, by submitting and becoming obedient, not to the law and commandment, but to the releasing of your will and your opinion and your point of view, into total submission to God's perspective and God's work.
His work is to do through His blood bought redeemed, His work.
His Work is to be a LIGHT in the DARK WORLD that calls unbelievers home, =TO THE CROSS.
God's WORK is to deliver and heal and comfort and LOVE as REDEMPTION.
That is God's work, and that is our Spiritual Fruit. Not law-keeping and so forth that you chase as YOUR Work.
But you’re not understanding for some reason. Our fruit will include law-keeping, of the moral law, must include law-keeping since law breaking is sin, but without reference to the law. We don’t submit to the law, even though it can still serve its role as reminding us that we’re sinning when we break it, but we submit to God, who then keeps us from breaking it even if we’ve never heard of it.

If we break the moral law, summed up with the Ten Commandments which in turn are summed up by the greatest commandments, we sin. If we seriously fail to love IOW, we sin. And sin keeps us from heaven according to Scripture.

Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.” Matt 5:19-20

Love fulfills the law while easily surpassing the righteousness of the Pharisees and teachers of the law. And that love comes from God. Our only job is to accept and embrace and express it.
The only thing that counts is faith working through love.” Gal 5:6
 
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Gary987

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You just read a Thread that explains that God did not save using the Law, and that the law is a curse, and here you are trying to live in the curse.
So, that is both confused and worse.

Listen, Jesus came to take the curse of the law off of the redeemed..
The born again are "under Grace". no longer under the law.
So, when someone is teaching you to stay under the law, they are leading you away from God's Grace.
Keep that in mind.


A new commandment I give to you. To love the lord your God with all your heart soul mind and strength. And to love your neighbor as yourself. In this all the law is fulfilled.
 
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Gary987

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A new commandment I give to you. To love the lord your God with all your heart soul mind and strength. And to love your neighbor as yourself. In this all the law is fulfilled.
Jesus knew we didn’t understand the law as gentiles. And the Jews (apostles) were unaware yet of what Jesus would do with gentiles to save them. He would save them by clarifying the old law with a new commandment.

to love the lord your god with all your heart mind soul strength.
The prophets record God as saying.
Who is this who calls out to me. I will hear his prayer. And I will be his God.
He says this in line with his promise. By you Abraham. All the nations of the earth shall be blessed

he confirms this by his church. The leading beacon of light for god. Established by gentiles. To cause jealousy in the Jews when we are raptured to be with him in the end times events


Am I way off here. I’m not teacher. Just passionate
 
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Gary987

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Jesus knew we didn’t understand the law as gentiles. And the Jews (apostles) were unaware yet of what Jesus would do with gentiles to save them. He would save them by clarifying the old law with a new commandment.

to love the lord your god with all your heart mind soul strength.
The prophets record God as saying.
Who is this who calls out to me. I will hear his prayer. And I will be his God.
He says this in line with his promise. By you Abraham. All the nations of the earth shall be blessed

he confirms this by his church. The leading beacon of light for god. Established by gentiles. To cause jealousy in the Jews when we are raptured to be with him in the end times events


Am I way off here. I’m not teacher. Just passionate
In defense of the member. @LoveGodsWord

his desire to follow the law is a blessing. He who teaches others do do so shall be greatest in the kingdom of heaven and he who does not will be considered least in heaven. I love you brothers. Let’s be of one mind Jesus. And of one salvation. His death on the cross and one hope. His resurrection of the saints

so teaching a Christian how Gods law works in a gentile is a blessing because before Jesus the gentiles rejected the Jews and the law and god himself by rejecting Israel.
 
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Soyeong

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I really don't understand your question.
IVe never said that God brings discipleship.
He doesn't. He brings the BLOOD ATONEMENT.
John 3:16

So, can you just ask a question, so that i can understand what you are needing to know.

You claimed that salvation is independent of "doing things", yet Titus 2:11-14 essentially describes our salvation as being trained by grace to do things. You seem to want to make what what we are trained by grace to do as being about discipleship instead of about salvation even though the verse is directly describing our salvation and in spite of the fact that discipleship is an aspect of our salvation. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself both to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so both are aspects of our salvation that Jesus gave himself to accomplish.
 
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Gary987

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You claimed that salvation is independent of "doing things", yet Titus 2:11-14 essentially describes our salvation as being trained by grace to do things. You seem to want to make what what we are trained by grace to do as being about discipleship instead of about salvation even though the verse is directly describing our salvation and in spite of the fact that discipleship is an aspect of our salvation. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself both to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so both are aspects of our salvation that Jesus gave himself to accomplish.
 
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