If Election is not true?

Clare73 said:

Precisely. . .how else would they be saved?
But note where the action is, where the convicting comes from--the Holy Spirit, the man's conviction was not his own doing. Apart from the Holy Spirit's action regarding him, he would still be in sin and unbelief.

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The thing I don't agree with is that you say rebirth happens first. Being convicted doesn't mean a person is reborn or has the Holy Spirit, agreeing with Bob there. But we all agree that it's by the influence of the Holy Spirit conviction happens.

zoidar said:

The thing I don't agree with is that you say rebirth happens first.
Being convicted doesn't mean a person is reborn or has the Holy Spirit,

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You cannot convict a man without the Spirit (unregenerate, not born again) because he does not accept the things (conviction) that come from the Spirit, he cannot understand them, and they are foolishness to him (2 Corinthians 2:14), he wants no part of conviction.

agreeing with Bob there. But we all agree that it's by the influence of the Holy Spirit conviction happens.

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Clare73 said:

You cannot convict a man without the Spirit (unregenerate, not born again) because he does not accept the things (conviction) that come from the Spirit, he cannot understand them, and they are foolishness to him (2 Corinthians 2:14), he wants no part of conviction.

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What would be the purpose to convict a man that is born again, that has the Holy Spirit? Isn't he allready saved?

zoidar said:

What would be the purpose to convict a man that is born again, that has the Holy Spirit? Isn't he allready saved?

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Another good question. . .

It's all one big operation of the Holy Spirit: rebirth, conviction, faith, salvation, justification, which are referred to in the order of their relation to one another according to the Scriptures.

Clare73 said:

Another good question. . .

It's all one big operation of the Holy Spirit: rebirth, conviction, faith, salvation, justification, which are referred to in the order of their relation to one another according to the Scriptures.

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What Bible passages are you thinking of?

zoidar said:

What Bible passages are you thinking of?

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Such things as:

the man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit; e.g., conviction
(1 Corinthinas 2:14)--the Holy Spirit is before everything;

no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him (John 6:65)--Holy Spirit before everything;

no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again (John 3:3, 5)--rebirth before conviction

salvation by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:3)--faith before salvation;

justification is by faith apart from works (Romans 4:5)--faith before justification;

salvation is from the wrath of God (Romans 5:9; Ephesians 2:3)-- condemnation, guilt removed through faith in Jesus' atoning work;

justification = declaration of "not guilty" through faith (Greek definition of justification)--salvation before justification;

which show the following order: Holy Spirit --> rebirth --> conviction--> salvation --> justification.

Clare73 said:

Such things as:

the man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit; e.g., conviction
(1 Corinthinas 2:14)--the Holy Spirit is before everything;

no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him (John 6:65)--Holy Spirit before everything;

no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again (John 3:3, 5)--rebirth before conviction

salvation by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:3)--faith before salvation;

justification is by faith apart from works (Romans 4:5)--faith before justification;

salvation is from the wrath of God (Romans 5:9; Ephesians 2:3)-- condemnation, guilt removed through faith in Jesus' atoning work;

justification = declaration of "not guilty" through faith (Greek definition of justification)--salvation before justification;

which show the following order: Holy Spirit --> rebirth --> conviction--> salvation --> justification.

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"Holy Spirit --> rebirth --> conviction--> salvation --> justification."

Would you come to this conclusion if you didn't have a theology set out before? Is this the "natural", "most obvious" way to understand these passages you quoted from? I make as we know a different conclusion.

zoidar said:

"Holy Spirit --> rebirth --> conviction--> salvation --> justification."

Would you come to this conclusion if you didn't have a theology set out before? Is this the "natural", "most obvious" way to understand these passages you quoted from?

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My "theology" is the Scriptures.

I presented the order which I see from the Scriptures.

I make as we know a different conclusion.

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What order do you see from the Scriptures?

(I think "conviction" may vary.)

Clare73 said:

My "theology" is the Scriptures.

I presented the order which I see from the Scriptures.

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Your theology is how you understand Scriptures, yes like YOU see from Scripture. We all interpret Scripture, I hope you are humble enough to agree with that. Sure your theology is derived from Scripture, but so is everyone's.

There are different "tools" to get the right theology from the Bible, like: making a correct translation from original text, knowing the culture of that time, understanding how they used language, knowing the texts by the Early Church fathers, knowing the situation when each text was written, understanding why and to whom it was written etc, and also our personal experiences matters. I admit I'm a beginner in interpretation, but I do the best I can

Sometimes Christians say: "Just read it literally what it says." Well, we can't just read what it says. We have to read what it's meant to say. If a manual is about a boat, but I take it all along to be about a car. Then even if I understand everything in the manual, it still will be problem when I try to fix my car.

What order do you see from the Scriptures?

(I think "conviction" may vary.)

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I have to go through the Bible to know exactly what to quote. I don't even think the Bible gives us a fully complete description how it happens. But I will do a few quotations:

that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
— Romans 10:9-10

How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
— Romans 10:14

First we to need hear. Then we need to believe what we've heard. Then to confess. First then we receive the Holy Spirit and are saved, like it says "confess unto salvation".

But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
— Romans 8:11

If we receive the Holy Spirit, He dwells in us and we are instantly saved and we will be raised to life, like Christ was. At the moment we receive the Holy Spirit we also get a new nature, also described as a new birth in John 3:3.

no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again (John 3:3, 5)--rebirth before conviction

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To see the kingdom of God we first need to be saved. We are not born again until we are saved. Before we are saved, we can know about the kingdom, but can't know/see the kingdom.

I like to add: Can it happen in another order than described in Romans 10? I'm sure it can, only God knows exactly how each person is saved. But my firm belief is that if you have received the Holy Spirit, you are saved and a child of God, and instantly so.

zoidar said:

Your theology is how you understand Scriptures, yes like you see from Scripture.
We all interpret Scripture, I hope you are humble enough to agree with that.
Sure your theology is derived from Scripture, but so is everyone's.

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Only when demonstrated to be so.
It's not about what we think, it's about what we can show from the Scriptures, in agreement with all Scripture.

Not everyone is on equal footing when it comes to understanding the Bible.
That's why God has appointed teachers for the body (1 Corinthians 12:28; James 3:1;
Romans 12:6-7; Ephesians 4:11).

Don't make the mistake of going down the "there is no objective truth, it is all subjective" trail,
at the end of which lies deception.

There are different "tools" to get the right theology from the Bible, like: making a correct translation from original text, knowing the culture of that time, understanding how they used language, knowing the texts by the Early Church fathers, knowing the situation when each text was written, understanding why and to whom it was written etc, and also our personal experiences matters. I admit I'm a beginner in interpretation, but I do the best I can

Sometimes Christians say: "Just read it literally what it says." Well, we can't just read what it says. We have to read what it's meant to say. If a manual is about a boat, but I take it all along to be about a car. Then even if I understand everything in the manual, it still will be a wrong understanding since I'm aplying it to a car.

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I have to go through the Bible to know exactly what to quote. I don't even think the Bible gives us a fully complete description how it happens.

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That is correct. I take my description from what the Scriptures show the relation of the different components to be to one another, not from the instructions to unbelievers.

But I will do a few quotations:

that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
— Romans 10:9-10

How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
— Romans 10:14

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First we to need hear. Then we need to believe what we've heard. Then to confess. First then we receive the Holy Spirit and are saved, like it says "confess unto salvation".

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That would be the order of man's action, that is not the order of the Holy Spirit's action.

Texts regarding the Holy Spirit's action show that nothing occurs until one has the Holy Spirit. (John 3:3, 5; 1 Corinthians 2:14, etc.)

But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
— Romans 8:11

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In context of the whole verse, that refers to the resurrection.

If we receive the Holy Spirit, He dwells in us and we are instantly saved and we will be raised to life, like Christ was. At the moment we receive the Holy Spirit we also get a new nature, also described as a new birth in John 3:3.

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Yes, it is all one big operation, order comes simply from the texts showing how the different components are related to one another, some of which texts I presented to you in post #86.

To see the kingdom of God we first need to be saved. We are not born again until we are saved. Before we are saved, we can know about the kingdom, but can't know/see the kingdom

I like to add: Can it happen in another order than described in Romans 10? I'm sure it can, only God knows exactly how each person is saved. But my firm belief is that if you have received the Holy Spirit, you are saved and a child of God, and instantly so.

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I would even posit it all happens instantly.
Again, the order comes simply from texts showing how the different components are related to one another, in sort of a way of causality.

Also, I wouldn't attempt to understand the NT without reading the whole NT first (Matthew to Revelation).

.

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zoidar said:

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I agree. . .

Clare73 said:

Only when demonstrated to be so.
It's not about what we think, it's about what we can show from the Scriptures, in agreement with all Scripture.

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I believe many Christians here can show from Scripture their theology is in agreement with it all. Yet, all can't be right.

It comes down to proving our view holds water, and why it is the most reliable interpretation.

Not everyone is on equal footing when it comes to understanding the Bible.
That's why Christ has appointed teachers for the body (Ephesians 4:11; James 3:1).

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Some are better teachers, some worse. Some should probably not be teachers at all.

Don't make the mistake of going down the "there is no objective truth, it is all subjective" trail,
at the end of which lies deception.

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Of course there is an objective truth, I wouldn't say anything else. A good question is: How do we get to that objective truth? Depending on who we ask, we get different answers how to approach the Bible.

In context of the whole verse, that refers to the resurrection.

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Sure, but the conclusion I made was if you have the Holy Spirit and therefore will be resurrected to life, also having the Holy Spirit must mean you are saved.

Yes, it is all one big operation, order comes simply from the texts showing how the different components are related to one another, some of which texts I presented to you in post #86.
I would even posit it all happens instantly.
Again, the order comes simply from texts showing how the different components are related to one another, in sort of a way of causality.

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I don't get how you mean there can be an order yet be instantly?

Clare73 said:

Precisely. . .how else would they be saved?
But note where the action is, where the convicting comes from--the Holy Spirit, the man's conviction was not his own doing. Apart from the Holy Spirit's action regarding him, he would still be in sin and unbelief.

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Agreed - God convicts the World, God draws all mankind to Himself John 12:32 - God is the first "actor" -

But that is indiscriminate action on God's part. He is not "just convicting the few of Matt 7" but rather "the world" John 16.

It is in that context that we see Rom 10:9-10 showing how the response of each person to God first-cause action makes a difference.

Such that for some "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" while for others they believe in Him and have eternal life.

zoidar said:

I believe many Christians here can show from Scripture their theology is in agreement with it all. Yet, all can't be right.

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Not upon examination in consistency with all Scripture.

It comes down to proving our view holds water, and why it is the most reliable interpretation.
Some are better teachers, some worse. Some should probably not be teachers at all.

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Your point regarding those whom God appoints?

Of course there is an objective truth, I wouldn't say anything else. A good question is: How do we get to that objective truth? Depending on who we ask, we get different answers how to approach the Bible.

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Western civilization has known for a long time the method for arriving at objective truth.

Are you sure you believe in objective truth?

Sure, but the conclusion I made was if you have the Holy Spirit and therefore will be resurrected to life, also having the Holy Spirit must mean you are saved.

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The letter is to the established church in Rome. They are addressed as saved.

I don't get how you mean there can be an order yet be instantly?

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Are you sure about that?

Pretty much the way he said, "Let there be light, and there was light."
I suspect there was a process that perhaps a physicist could identify, and maybe not, but it was instantaneous.

And I don't have to understand any of it to note the relationships of the various components as they are presented in Scripture.

I have you for a nice guy. . .are you being argumentative?

Clare73 said:

I have you for a nice guy. . .are you being argumentative?

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Thanks! Argumentative, I don't know ...

I'm trying to make you see that everyone interprets Scripture, that we use different "tools" and that this goes for everyone. The objective truth doesn't change, but our understanding of it is affected by how we study Scripture.

When you say it's not your theology, but the theology of the Bible, is like saying: "I'm right, your wrong!" Better pointing to why your theology is of the Bible, and why mine isn't. Sure you have tried to do that, and that is fine.

Since I believe you still don't have the objective truth correctly understood, I try to point out where you might not have looked.

God bless and good night!

zoidar said:

Thanks! Argumentative, I don't know ...

I'm trying to make you see that everyone interprets Scripture. . .

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By not dealing with the Scriptures themselves and demonstrating any inaccuracy you see me alleging.

Since I believe you still don't have the objective truth correctly understood, I try to point out where you might not have looked.

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Then it falls to you to demonstrate that from Scripture, rather than trying to make a case that all is just equal subjective opinion, and the objective truth cannot be determined. . .which lets you off the hook from putting your money where you mouth is and being accountable for your assertions.

Talk is cheap. . .the proof of the pudding is in the eating, not in the jabbering about it.
Stop the jabbering and deal. . .with the Scriptures in question, as in the ones I've re-presented below, and demonstrate (not just claim) any inaccuracy you see in any conclusion I've presented.

If you can't Biblically demonstrate where any inaccuracy lies, then intellectual honesty requires you to accept that your assertion is not tenable, and that you need to rethink your view.

That's how truth is arrived at in the real world.

So these are the Scriptures:
1) no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again (John 3:3, 5)--rebirth before conviction

2) salvation by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:3)--faith before salvation;

3) justification is by faith apart from works (Romans 4:5)--faith before justification;

4) salvation is from the wrath of God (Romans 5:9; Ephesians 2:3)-- condemnation, guilt removed through faith in Jesus' atoning work;

5) declaration of "not guilty" through faith (Greek definition of justification)--salvation before justification;

which show the following order: Holy Spirit --> rebirth --> conviction--> salvation --> justification.

Clare73 said:

Talk is cheap. . .the proof of the pudding is in the eating, not in the jabbering about it.
Stop the jabbering and deal. . .with the Scriptures in question, as in the ones I've re-presented below, and demonstrate (not just claim) any inaccuracy you see in any conclusion I've presented.

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We can discuss Scripture. I still wait for you to show by Scripture we recieve the Holy Spirit at conviction.

I did provide Romans 10, but you dismissed that saying it was the human side to it. Does it really matter? It says we have to confess first to be saved. And we agree (I think) that we are saved when we have the Holy Spirit. Therefore being convicted doesn't mean we have the Holy Spirit or are born again. Since being convicted doesn't mean you have yet confessed.

Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
— John 3:3

Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
— John 3:5

Those verses doesn't even mention conviction. Where does it say "rebirth before conviction" ?

Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
— Ephesians 2:3

The verse you quoted doesn't mention faith, only that we once lived in sin.

But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
— Romans 4:5

The verse says faith is "credited as righteousness". It's describing the means not the order. You can't use it to say faith is before justification.

We need to distinquish between faith which is alive and just believing a fact which is "dead faith". As shown in Romans 10 we believe the message first before we confess and can have faith (that saves).

Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
— Romans 5:9

It doesn't mention guilt at all. It says we are justified through His blood and saved from the wrath to come (Romans 2:5, 1 Thessalonians 1:10). Even if you say justified means "freed from guilt" it still doesn't describe order, if anything it points to being simultaneous. We are freed from guilt/wrath/punishment through faith.

5) declaration of "not guilty" through faith (Greek definition of justification)--salvation before justification;

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I can't tell whether that Greek definition is correct or not. Where you go from "not guilty" to "salvation before justification" I can't understand. Like I said it happens simulaneously. Justification = salvation.

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith ...
— Romans 3:23-25

We are justified through faith, not before faith, not after, simultaneously (through faith).

Clare73 said:

That would be the order of man's action, that is not the order of the Holy Spirit's action.

Texts regarding the Holy Spirit's action show that nothing occurs until one has the Holy Spirit. (John 3:3, 5; 1 Corinthians 2:14, etc.)

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Those texts don't say "nothing occurs until one HAS the Holy Spirit". Rather the Holy Spirit "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16 - and yet the world does not HAVE (as in not filled with) the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit "exists" and is active even while the wicked person He is convicting has not yet chosen salvation .. That wicked person does not "have" the Holy Spirit rather they are drawn by Him - without first having to be filled with Him. They are unsaved and do not "have" the Holy Spirit when they are enabled to "choose". God is just - that big.