70 Weeks of Daniel

Douggg

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How can you say that when there is absolutely no mention of the rapture in Ezekiel 39 and Daniel 9? You must add unto Scripture to sustain your belief.
Ezekiel 39 and Daniel 9 are not the only scriptures in the bible.

Are you saying that it is impossible for the rapture to take place before the Ezekiel 39 Gog/Magog invasion against Israel ?

I am not saying that it will, but it is possible.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Ezekiel 39 and Daniel 9 are not the only scriptures in the bible.

Are you saying that it is impossible for the rapture to take place before the Ezekiel 39 Gog/Magog invasion against Israel ?

I am not saying that it will, but it is possible.

As per normal, and when pressed, Pretribbers are unable to provide any biblical evidence to support Pretrib. There is nothing in this text that teaches any of the Pretrib tenets. In fact, they have no single proof-text anywhere in Scripture. This is a man-made doctrine.

The reality is:

The transport is ancient – “horses” (Ezekiel 38:4) and “chariots” (Ezekiel 39:20).
The weapons are ancient – “bows and the arrows” (Ezekiel 39:9).
The protection is ancient "bucklers and shields" (Ezekiel 38:4 & 39:9).
The spoil is ancient – “cattle and goods” (Ezekiel 38:13).

In short, I believe this battle has been fulfilled.
 
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Douggg

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In short, I believe this battle has been fulfilled.
There is no mass grave site in Israel of Gog's army to prove that it has not happened yet.

May I make a suggestion, since I am not pre-trib, why don't you go to You Tube and search for videos on "pre-trib rapture" and watch some of those, while making a list of what scriptures they refer to in the videos - and then come back here, and share the list.
 
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Jeffwhosoever

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I'm not seeing a ton of evidence in Scripture for a pre-trib rapture either. It seems its possible to have the rapture happen at any point in the 7 years, though I tend to see more evidence that believers will not be here for the wrath of God part at the end of the 7 years (3.5 years or later).
 
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sovereigngrace

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There is no mass grave site in Israel of Gog's army to prove that it has not happened yet.

May I make a suggestion, since I am not pre-trib, why don't you go to You Tube and search for videos on "pre-trib rapture" and watch some of those, while making a list of what scriptures they refer to in the videos - and then come back here, and share the list.

I used to be Pretrib. It is my opinion that it has zero proof-texts. That is why I abandoned it. Your failure to furnish us with supporting evidence confirms my assertion.
 
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Douggg

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I used to be Pretrib. It is my opinion that it has zero proof-texts. That is why I abandoned it. Your failure to furnish us with supporting evidence confirms my assertion.
It is not up to me, because it is your war on pre-trib, not mine.

Saying that they don't use scriptures, as you do, is simply not factual. Disagreeing with their conclusions from those scriptures is a different matter.

You have not cited the scriptures that "they" the pretribbers use to support their pre-trib rapture view.

Which, to get a valid list, a good method would be to watch pre-tribbers You Tube videos which they give the rationale for the pre-trib rapture view.
 
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sovereigngrace

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It is not up to me, because it is your war on pre-trib, not mine.

Saying that they don't use scriptures, as you do, is simply not factual. Disagreeing with their conclusions from those scriptures is a different matter.

You have not cited the scriptures that "they" the pretribbers use to support their pre-trib rapture view.

Which, to get a valid list, a good method would be to watch pre-tribbers You Tube videos which they give the rationale for the pre-trib rapture view.

Why would I do that? Daniel 9, 1 Thess 4, Rev 3:10 and 4:1 are their typical arguments. None of these say what they claim.
 
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Douggg

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Why would I do that? Daniel 9, 1 Thess 4, Rev 3:10 and 4:1 are their typical arguments. None of these say what they claim.
I think they use more scriptures than those four. I think you need to watch some of their You Tube videos and put together a list of the scriptures they use.

Here is one that you can start with... I am watching it myself for the first time.

 
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Douggg

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@sovereigngrace
There are a lot of videos on You Tube by pre-tribbers on the pre-trib rapture, the scriptures they use.

in that one video, the scriptures used were...

Ephesians 5 the bride of Christ
John 14:2 - the mansions and Jesus coming for Christians
1Thessalonians4:13-18.
2Thessalonians2:3
Genesis 5:21-, Enoch a type of rapture @ minute 27
Genesis 6 - Noah a type of rapture @ minute 28
Exodus 14 - The Israelite's escape through the sea @ minute 30
Elijah 2Kings3 @ minute 34
Revelation 3:3
2Corinthians12
Revelation 1-3
Revelation 4, a door opened in heaven, minute 41
Revelation 12
Titus 2:13 minute 48
Philippians 3:21
Revelation 22:17
 
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sovereigngrace

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I think they use more scriptures than those four. I think you need to watch some of their You Tube videos and put together a list of the scriptures they use.

Here is one that you can start with... I am watching it myself for the first time.


I have no interest in visiting outside sites. It is impossible to challenge their position
 
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sovereigngrace

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@sovereigngrace
There are a lot of videos on You Tube by pre-tribbers on the pre-trib rapture, the scriptures they use.

in that one video, the scriptures used were...

Ephesians 5 the bride of Christ
John 14:2 - the mansions and Jesus coming for Christians
1Thessalonians4:13-18.
2Thessalonians2:3
Genesis 5:21-, Enoch a type of rapture @ minute 27
Genesis 6 - Noah a type of rapture @ minute 28
Exodus 14 - The Israelite's escape through the sea @ minute 30
Elijah 2Kings3 @ minute 34
Revelation 3:3
2Corinthians12
Revelation 1-3
Revelation 4, a door opened in heaven, minute 41
Revelation 12
Titus 2:13 minute 48
Philippians 3:21
Revelation 22:17

None of this teaches a rapture of the church, followed by a 7 year tribulation, followed by a 3rd coming.
 
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Jipsah

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The point is really simple. Daniel prophecized based on visions from God. God's measure of time is not man's measure, and not based on a 360 degree axial rotation of Earth.
So what you're saying is that from a human standpoint the numbers are meaningless. Then why are they there?
 
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Jeffwhosoever

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So what you're saying is that from a human standpoint the numbers are meaningless. Then why are they there?
I never said the numbers are meaningless. They are there to show us order, but we cannot assume 70 weeks was 70 literal weeks. And Daniel bifurcated the 69th and 70th "week" for a reason when Jesus was "cut off" at the cross.

See also: Futurist Only - Daniel 12 Timeline
 
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Jeffwhosoever

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Check this out Christian Gedge:
Premillennialism in the Book of Daniel | The Master's Seminary

"Among six passages in Daniel that pertain to a promised future kingdom, three are most relevant to premillennialism: 2:31-45; 7:1-27; 9:24- 27. By means of Daniel’s interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream-vision of a statue, 2:31-45 prophesies about five kingdoms that will appear in sequence, the last of which comes in the form of a Messianic stone that will crush the ones before it and fill the whole earth. Daniel 7:1-27 covers the same ground from a different perspective. Here Daniel receives a two-part vision, the former part including four beasts that represent kingdoms and the latter, the Ancient of Days and the Messianic Son of Man. Subsequent interpretation details the Son of Man’s subjugation of these kingdoms to Himself after a period of tribulation. The prophecy of the seventy “weeks” in 9:24-27 supplies additional data regarding a premillennial return of the Messianic ruler to set up an earthly kingdom. These data include such things as the time-frame of the Messianic ruler’s first and second advents and the purposes of the two advents. All three passages correlate most easily with what is taught throughout Scripture about a premillennial return of Christ."

Jesus has not set up his kingdom yet, but it is coming soon for the 1000 year reign of Revelation 20.
 
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Christian Gedge

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Jesus has not set up his kingdom yet
Of course he has set up his kingdom! We are citizens! Don’t go down the dispensational bunny trail bro.
 
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Douggg

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@Jeffwhosoever

information sharing -

There are two theologically warring factions in Christianity. Perhaps I should say three - if a person were to include Catholicism. Covenant/New Covenant theology vs Dispensationalism.

Both are man-made systems on how to understand the bible.

Covenant/New Covenant theology came out of the reformation era, 1500's-1600's. Which as the name suggests divides the bible up into covenants. Which treats Israel as having evolved into the church.
Covenant theology - Wikipedia
Reformation - Wikipedia



Later a new system got stated in 1800's - Dispensationalism, which divides the bible into dispensations, i.e ages. Which treats Israel and the church as separate entities.
Dispensationalism - Wikipedia

_______________________________________________________________________

A person does not have to subscribe to either. Although there is a tendency of some of either group to try and draw others into their camp.
 
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Gabriel did not give the vision Daniel had in Daniel 8, God did. Gabriel was instructed to make Daniel understand what he saw. Gabriel told Daniel the vision of the little horn and 2300 days was time of the end.
Right. What I meant was that Daniel 9:21 simply points out that the angel appearing to Daniel was the same one who he had previously seen regarding the vision from Daniel 8, which was Gabriel. My point is that the vision from Daniel 8 itself is not the focus of Daniel 9:21. Instead, the focus is on the fact that Gabriel was once again appearing to Daniel, this time to give him a new prophecy which is recorded in Daniel 9:24-27.

If the vision from Daniel 8 was the focus of Daniel 9:21, then you would have a point that the "vision" mentioned in Daniel 9:23 would likely be pointing back to that. But, that is not the case. Once again, let me point out the FACT that the Hebrew word translated as "vision" in Daniel 9:23 can refer to an actual vision like what Daniel had in Daniel 8 or it can refer to a prophetic insight or prophecy. And that is the case in Daniel 9:23. Gabriel was telling Daniel there to consider and understand the vision/prophetic insight that he was about to give him, as recorded in Daniel 9:24-27.
 
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