Are Gifts Designed For The Body Of Christ Sign Gifts?

Hidden In Him said:

But Arbiter, the point I am getting to is that I believe you are lifting 1 Corinthians 14:3 out of its immediate context and applying it as a blanket statement over the entirety of scripture. This is a mistake. If it is to be understood as a blanket statement covering all of scripture, again, how do you account for the passage I quoted you in Jeremiah? It is only one of many passages I could show you that contradict your position.

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As I've stated, it wasn't the gift of prophesying that was used by GOD to foretell the events, it was the gift of the word of wisdom.

If you don't agree, then fine, I'm not going to keep repeating myself.

ARBITER01 said:

As I've stated, it wasn't the gift of prophesying that was used by GOD to foretell the events, it was the gift of the word of wisdom.

If you don't agree, then fine, I'm not going to keep repeating myself.

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Post #60.

Hidden In Him said:

As you wish, and I am at peace with that. But as of yet you have not proven your case from scripture. When passages contradict what you teach, you have to be able to account for them somehow.

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I'm not concerned about that. I've been on here since 2005, the learning curve is all over the place.

@Hidden In Him

I wouldn't worry about people who don't flow in a gift misunderstanding the gift. You don't go to McDonald's to get your oil changed. Paul didn't want us ignorant of the gifts, but there's little that can be done when one chooses willful ignorance.

For those watching the thread and wanting to learn about the gifts of The Spirit, learn from the older generations. They were the people that suffered through the depression and relied upon GOD much more, learn from them.

Material from Howard Carter, Harold Horton, as well as Lester Sumrall you will find to be very reliable.

topher694 said:

@Hidden In Him

I wouldn't worry about people who don't flow in a gift misunderstanding the gift. You don't go to McDonald's to get your oil changed. Paul didn't want us ignorant of the gifts, but there's little that can be done when one chooses willful ignorance.

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Just a polite conversation, and apparently a friendly disagreement.

I'd like to see the Pentecostal forums here take off again, so I'm treating no one like an enemy. I figure we should all be on the same team, even when we disagree, so as to encourage others to join in and take an interest.

ARBITER01 said:

For those watching the thread and wanting to learn about the gifts of The Spirit, learn from the older generations.

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I'm getting up there in age now too, LoL, but let's not talk about that.

Good night to you both, and God bless.
- H

Hidden In Him said:

I'd like to see the Pentecostal forums here take off again, so I'm treating no one like an enemy. I figure we should all be on the same team, even when we disagree, so as to encourage others to join in and take an interest.

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I wouldn't put too much ambition towards that forum section, there is a series of people who are basically spamming it twice a day. I made the mods aware of if a while back but they never did anything about it.

Laters

Hidden In Him said:

Just a polite conversation, and apparently a friendly disagreement.

I'd like to see the Pentecostal forums here take off again, so I'm treating no one like an enemy. I figure we should all be on the same team, even when we disagree, so as to encourage others to join in and take an interest.

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I agree in principle, but unfortunately not everyone sees it that way.

ARBITER01 said:

I wouldn't put too much ambition towards that forum section, there is a series of people who are basically spamming it twice a day. I made the mods aware of if a while back but they never did anything about it.

Laters

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Well I'm including the Sign Gifts and Spiritual Gifts forums in that as well. Hadn't visited the Charismatic forum much actually yet, so maybe I'll find out what you're referring to as time progresses.

Oscarr said:

Usually, the shonky ones tend to dominate when good people do nothing. If the Pentecostal forums have gone downhill over the last year, it has been because I have been away from the forum for that time. But I am now back and I'm Mr Valiant For Truth with my sword of the Spirit freshly sharpened for action!

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Good word!

Even friendly disagreement is far preferable to sparse threads with little to no activity. One says the place is alive and involved (while nevertheless opinionated); the other says dead and buried.

I'll take opinionated but involved any day of the week.

Hidden In Him said:

As you wish, and I am at peace with that. But as of yet you have not proven your case from scripture. When passages contradict what you teach, you have to be able to account for them somehow.

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With your statement in mind, I'm going to repost the section of Acts again,...

Act 21:8 And on the morrow we departed, and came unto Caesarea: and entering into the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, we abode with him.
Act 21:9 Now this man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.
Act 21:10 And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus.
Act 21:11 And coming to us, and taking Paul's girdle, he bound his own feet and hands, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.

This is a very interesting section of scripture that The Holy Spirit is teaching us from. I've posted it in a couple of threads before when stating my case about the gifts, and people seem to ignore it altogether.

If you believe that the gift of prophesying is a revelation gift, apart from what scripture defines, then why did not The Holy Spirit utilize it out of one of the 4 virgin daughters instead of having Agabus come to Paul and give the message??

ARBITER01 said:

If you believe that the gift of prophesying is a revelation gift, apart from what scripture defines, then why did not The Holy Spirit utilize it out of one of the 4 virgin daughters instead of having Agabus come to Paul and give the message??

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This sort of thing happens all the time. Agabus was a mature prophet prophesying to a mature Apostle. Phillp's daughters were very gifted but young. Nothing about this changes the nature of prophecy. It is perfectly in line with the nature of the prophetic and how things should be done decently and in order.

EDIT:
In fact now that I think about it, it would be entirely possible, and in line with Paul's character that he, Paul, invited Agabus there to help train the 4 daughters in the prophetic.

ARBITER01 said:

Act 21:8 And on the morrow we departed, and came unto Caesarea: and entering into the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, we abode with him.
Act 21:9 Now this man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.
Act 21:10 And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus.
Act 21:11 And coming to us, and taking Paul's girdle, he bound his own feet and hands, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.

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I could answer that for you, but I think you still owe me an answer on my question. It's supposed to go both ways, you know.

topher694 said:

EDIT:
In fact now that I think about it, it would be entirely possible, and in line with Paul's character that he, Paul, invited Agabus there to help train the 4 daughters in the prophetic.

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Oscarr said:

All Luke did was to record these events in his journal. He was merely giving an account of what happened, and wouldn't have thought that any teaching was to be given through what he wrote. Because we don't have any of these people present now, it is very hard to answer your question without getting into guess work.

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Since you two have answered I will share mine with you (Arbiter still owes me an answer before I direct one his way, LoL).

When taken in context, the mention of the four daughters seems to suggest that they were prophesying the same thing Agabus did when he came, and that Agabus was sent by the Holy Spirit to confirm it. Certainly that's not stated explicitly in the text, but the mention of the four daughters makes virtually no sense and has no bearing if not, unless Agabus was sent to train them as Topher suggested.

Hidden In Him said:

When taken in context, the mention of the four daughters seems to suggest that they were prophesying the same thing Agabus did when he came, and that Agabus was sent by the Holy Spirit to confirm it. Certainly that's not stated explicitly in the text, but the mention of the four daughters makes virtually no sense and has no bearing if not, unless Agabus was sent to train them as Topher suggested.

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Yes. And now that I'm looking at Acts 21:9 in the original, I think my interpretation is probably the correct one. The word προφητεύουσαι is in present active participle here, which renders the verse literally as, "And for this one were four virgin daughters prophesying." That means they were already actively prophesying something before Agabus ever arrived. What it was isn't stated, but certainly it would have been in keeping with what Agabus prophesied or there would have been a problem, and obviously they already knew well enough to be operating in the gift rightly or they would have been chastised and reproved.

Hidden In Him said:

I could answer that for you, but I think you still owe me an answer on my question. It's supposed to go both ways, you know.



Since you two have answered I will share mine with you (Arbiter still owes me an answer before I direct one his way, LoL).

When taken in context, the mention of the four daughters seems to suggest that they were prophesying the same thing Agabus did when he came, and that Agabus was sent by the Holy Spirit to confirm it. Certainly that's not stated explicitly in the text, but the mention of the four daughters makes virtually no sense and has no bearing if not, unless Agabus was sent to train them as Topher suggested.

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Well I thought I did, but let me restate my answer to you on any sort of foretelling example that The Holy Spirit does through us,... it is by the gift of wisdom.

Any prophet that uttered words by The Holy Spirit, or were inspired by and told to write them down, that were clearly predictive/foretelling in nature, did so by the gift of wisdom. The reasons why I state such is because,..

1) The gift of prophesying is clearly defined already in 1Cor 14:3, and it doesn't list a revelatory function in the definition.

2) The word of knowledge only deals with current and past events, not futuristic ones.

The gift that has the actual possibility to be used in this revelatory capacity would be the word of wisdom.

Hidden In Him said:

Yes. And now that I'm looking at Acts 21:9 in the original, I think my interpretation is probably the correct one. The word προφητεύουσαι is in present active participle here, which renders the verse literally as, "And for this one were four virgin daughters prophesying." That means they were already actively prophesying something before Agabus ever arrived. What it was isn't stated, but certainly it would have been in keeping with what Agabus prophesied or there would have been a problem, and obviously they already knew well enough to be operating in the gift rightly or they would have been chastised and reproved.

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Or,.......the gift of prophesying didn't have that revelatory function and it took Agabus to deliver the message utilizing the proper gift.

If one of the virtuous daughters had been used to predict Paul's situation prior to Agabus arriving, then it could be rightly assumed that The Holy Spirit used Agabus to confirm the message already given, but it didn't happen that way.

Also,....if it had happened that way, and Agabus was merely confirming the message given,.... I would have no grounds to stand on with my assertion that another gift was used.